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  #101  
Old July 10th 17, 09:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Handlebar rotation

On 7/9/17 11:16 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Well, one respected source is _Effective Cycling_ by John Forester, MIT
Press. Page 260 of the 6th edition says 50% of bike injuries are due to
falls, vs. 17% due to car-bike crashes. (17% are also due to bike-bike
crashes.) For "serious" injuries, it's 36% due to falls, 26% car-bike
crashes and 13% bike-bike crashes.


OMG, you lost what little credibility you had when you claim that that
is a "respected source."
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  #102  
Old July 10th 17, 09:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Handlebar rotation

On 2017-07-10 12:44, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2017 3:26 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-10 10:54, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2017 1:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-09 11:32, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2017 10:44 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-08 15:59, jbeattie wrote:


When was the last time you were hurt on a bike? Were you hit by a
car?


No but that is because I am primarily using a mountain bike, the way
it was meant to be used. The reason I got hurt a lot as a kid was
that
I used a regular bicycle on motocross tracks without wearing any
protective gear.

Other people's accidents did not always involved a direct collision
but many were caused by evasive action because of car drivers (often
truck drivers).

Maybe we should do a little survey of posters to this discussion
group.
What was your last on-road bike-related injury? Was it because you
were
hit by a car? Was it because you were taking evasive action to avoid
being hit by a car? Or what was the cause?

I suppose if people prefer, they could give counts of all their bike
injury incidents instead of just the last one.

I don't have much to contribute. Since 1972: I slid out on gravel at
about 5 mph creeping down a very steep, short hill on a city
street. I
scraped my knee. And the front forks of our custom tandem snapped off
on a bumpy road at about 10 mph or less. I banged up my shoulder. So
that's one crash with the most common cause, which is the road
surface;
and one crash by a relatively rare cause, component failure.

My wife's on road crashes are also two. She was on the back of the
tandem when it crashed, but she wasn't injured, just shaken up. And
many years ago, on a club ride, someone slammed on their brakes
unnecessarily in front of her. She avoided that person as she
stopped,
but another rider ran into her from behind and knocked her down.
Again,
no injury, just a fall. We were about 20 miles into an 80 mile ride,
which we all finished.

More detail on the final crash above: The person who caused the chain
reaction crash had slammed on the brakes because they were afraid of a
passing truck. But none of the others (including me, leading the
ride)
braked because of the truck. It just wasn't necessary at all. So
that
crash was actually caused not by the truck, but by timidity.


No, it was caused by reckless cyclist behavior. Every respectable
teacher in driver's ed teaches their students to keep an adequate
distance from the vehicle up front. One Mississippi, two Mississippi.
Simple. Failing to do so will one day result in a crash like you
described. It doesn't have to be timidity. It could be as simple as an
animal running into the road.

You're deflecting again.

Tell us about your recent injuries, Joerg. Tell us about their causes.
Restrict it to on-road if you like. I'm saying most bike injuries are
minor and do not involve cars. You're claiming something else. What's
your experience?


Depends on what you call "recent".


Start with your last bike-related injury and work backward. Stop when
you like. Just don't omit any.


I do not keep a log book about that. I only keep logs about tire
lifetimes, brake pads and such. To find which ones are best.


I had a 15+ year cycling hiatus on account of lacking cycle path
infrastructure. When that got better I started riding again in 2013.
No road injuries since then but several evasive actions required
because of motorists.


So no injuries in four years or so. Perhaps this isn't such a
death-defying activity after all!


Maybe you forgot again: 40-50% of my rides are singletrack on an MTB.
The road bike miles are largely on segregated bike paths. Those are safe
and one usually does not get into accidents there if careful.


BTW, I didn't include off-road injuries in my list of two (since 1972).
Let me fix that.

In 1973 I was taking a shortcut through an industrial parking lot. In
the shadows I missed seeing a slot between a scale platform and the
surrounding pavement. It swallowed my front wheel, I went over the bars
and scraped up both palms. No ER visit necessary. Riding home (about
two miles IIRC) was painful, as was doing anything using my hands for a
few days.


You said on-road though. Ok, I had a "get-home-itis" accident last year.
Dirt trail, I was to be Mr.Barbecue that night, it was late, I stepped
on it, 20mph, sand patch came ... ah, well, enough speed will get me
through that in a jiffy ... a Manzanita branch was hidden in there,
flipped up into the front spokes, half a rotation .. TWHOCK .. over the
bar. The scrape wounds burned for a few days here and there. Oh well.


You now have a complete list of my cycling injuries as an adult, both on
road and off road. I crashed my mountain bike many times back when I
was challenging myself when riding it, but I was never injured.

And again, ever since learning to ride visibly away from the gutter (as
the law _does_ allow, despite your stubborn disbelief) I've never had to
take serious evasive action due to a motorist. I've hit the brakes a
very few times, but never even a panic stop.

Gutter bunnies seem to have a completely different experience out there.


It doesn't matter whether in the lane or not. At traffic lights or stop
signs where only one lane goes straight ahead I usually always take the
lane. And that's exactly where my serious accidents happened. So far for
your theories.

Those kinds of critical situations have significantly dropped in
frequency since I use bright daytime lights. I know you don't believe it
but it's fact.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #103  
Old July 10th 17, 09:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Handlebar rotation

On 7/10/2017 3:41 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-10 10:51, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2017 1:20 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-09 11:16, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2017 10:51 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-09 07:13, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But second, your statement wasn't even a good deflection. By FAR,
the
main cause of bicycling injury is simply falling off.


Proof, please.

Well, one respected source is _Effective Cycling_ by John Forester, MIT
Press. Page 260 of the 6th edition says 50% of bike injuries are
due to
falls, vs. 17% due to car-bike crashes. (17% are also due to bike-bike
crashes.) For "serious" injuries, it's 36% due to falls, 26% car-bike
crashes and 13% bike-bike crashes.


Forester is most certain not a respected source for people like myself
(or any other cyclist I personally know).


Of course you don't respect him. I already know you disagree with
anything he says, simply because it disagrees with your own
preconceptions.


With my experience, and that of most others I know.


What data do you have?


Lost. For example this:

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentra...1-2458-14-1205



And from that link: "The study population consisted of adult (≥19
years) residents of Toronto and Vancouver who were injured while riding
a bicycle in the city and treated within 24 hours in the emergency
departments of the hospitals listed above..."

So you're not looking at all injuries. You're looking at only those
injuries whom someone chose to take to the ER. It excludes the vast
majority of bike injuries precisely because the vast majority of bike
injuries are minor. (And Teschke is notorious for carefully selecting
data that can be used to promote segregated facilities for cyclists.)


The data is similar for other studies.


Which?

List your last few bike injuries, Joerg. Tell us what they were and how
they happened, as I did upthread. Don't omit the minor ones.


I do not keep a log of any minor ones. I have listed the serious
accidents in this thread. Mine usually involved mistakes or reckless
action by car drivers.


But that's exactly the point! You claimed that most bike injuries are
caused by car-bike crashes. I said that was patently false. By far,
most bike injuries are very minor and caused by essentially falling off
the bike. (To give more detail: most are due to problems with the
surface, like slipping on gravel, hitting a terrible pothole, hitting a
slot in the road, etc.)

The most common bike injury is listed in hospital data as "minor injury
to lower extremity." The bulk of those are, literally, skinned knees.
I person might get that from a car-bike crash, but almost all of them
come from falling off.

Have I heard of a "fall to avoid collision?" Not from the experience of
anybody I know.


Sorry to say, then you don't seem to know much about bicycling.


:-) The cycling organizations that recruited me for various instructor,
board member or other officer positions disagreed with you.

What you really mean is, your beliefs and my beliefs differ.

Now, I know that I've gone through four separate training or
certification programs regarding cycling education. I've contributed,
through pre-production editing, to two well-respected books on cycling
education. I've written many articles for cycling publications, some of
which have been reprinted in multiple states and countries. I've
corresponded with and talked in person with people who are nationally
recognized as cycling experts. As recently as ten days ago, one of them
asked permission to use some of my writing (a review of a bike-related
academic paper). I bike commuted for many decades until I retired. I've
done countless bike trips and tours from overnight to summer-long. I've
ridden in something like a dozen countries. I've held multiple offices
in my bike club, and for seven or eight years ran our century ride when
it won a national award. I've done many century-plus rides, including
one double century.

Instead of going further with that, let me stop and ask your
qualifications.

Over 35,000 American motorists die in a typical year. About 750
bicyclists die in a typical year. Every study done on the subject has
shown that the health and longevity benefits of bicycling greatly
outweigh its tiny risks.

Man up, stop whining, and learn to ride your bike correctly.


You will obviously never understand what "per mile" means.


I know that John Pucher of Rutgers has published (in "Making Walking
and Cycling Safer: Lessons from Europe") an estimate from U.S. data that
bicyclists suffer 109 fatalities per billion km ridden. Pedestrians
suffer 362 fatalities per billion km, three times as bad.

Those numbers work out to 5.7 million miles ridden, or 1.7 million miles
walked, per fatality. Pucher's later estimates from U.S. data were even
more favorable, over ten million miles ridden per fatality.

If bicycling is far safer PER MILE than even walking, why do you pretend
it's dangerous?


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #104  
Old July 10th 17, 10:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Handlebar rotation

On 2017-07-10 13:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2017 3:41 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-10 10:51, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2017 1:20 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-09 11:16, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2017 10:51 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-09 07:13, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But second, your statement wasn't even a good deflection. By
FAR, the
main cause of bicycling injury is simply falling off.


Proof, please.

Well, one respected source is _Effective Cycling_ by John Forester,
MIT
Press. Page 260 of the 6th edition says 50% of bike injuries are
due to
falls, vs. 17% due to car-bike crashes. (17% are also due to
bike-bike
crashes.) For "serious" injuries, it's 36% due to falls, 26% car-bike
crashes and 13% bike-bike crashes.


Forester is most certain not a respected source for people like myself
(or any other cyclist I personally know).

Of course you don't respect him. I already know you disagree with
anything he says, simply because it disagrees with your own
preconceptions.


With my experience, and that of most others I know.


What data do you have?


Lost. For example this:

https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentra...1-2458-14-1205



And from that link: "The study population consisted of adult (≥19
years) residents of Toronto and Vancouver who were injured while riding
a bicycle in the city and treated within 24 hours in the emergency
departments of the hospitals listed above..."

So you're not looking at all injuries. You're looking at only those
injuries whom someone chose to take to the ER. It excludes the vast
majority of bike injuries precisely because the vast majority of bike
injuries are minor. (And Teschke is notorious for carefully selecting
data that can be used to promote segregated facilities for cyclists.)


The data is similar for other studies.


Which?


I am not going to repeat all that. Plus you won't even get it if listed
a dozen.


List your last few bike injuries, Joerg. Tell us what they were and how
they happened, as I did upthread. Don't omit the minor ones.


I do not keep a log of any minor ones. I have listed the serious
accidents in this thread. Mine usually involved mistakes or reckless
action by car drivers.


But that's exactly the point! You claimed that most bike injuries are
caused by car-bike crashes. I said that was patently false.



Read the study in the link again.


... By far,
most bike injuries are very minor and caused by essentially falling off
the bike. (To give more detail: most are due to problems with the
surface, like slipping on gravel, hitting a terrible pothole, hitting a
slot in the road, etc.)

The most common bike injury is listed in hospital data as "minor injury
to lower extremity." The bulk of those are, literally, skinned knees. I
person might get that from a car-bike crash, but almost all of them come
from falling off.

Have I heard of a "fall to avoid collision?" Not from the experience of
anybody I know.


Sorry to say, then you don't seem to know much about bicycling.


:-) The cycling organizations that recruited me for various instructor,
board member or other officer positions disagreed with you.



I am glad I am not a member of those.


What you really mean is, your beliefs and my beliefs differ.

Now, I know that I've gone through four separate training or
certification programs regarding cycling education. I've contributed,
through pre-production editing, to two well-respected books on cycling
education. I've written many articles for cycling publications, some of
which have been reprinted in multiple states and countries. I've
corresponded with and talked in person with people who are nationally
recognized as cycling experts. As recently as ten days ago, one of them
asked permission to use some of my writing (a review of a bike-related
academic paper). I bike commuted for many decades until I retired. I've
done countless bike trips and tours from overnight to summer-long. I've
ridden in something like a dozen countries. I've held multiple offices
in my bike club, and for seven or eight years ran our century ride when
it won a national award. I've done many century-plus rides, including
one double century.


Are you done with boasting now?


Instead of going further with that, let me stop and ask your
qualifications.


Over 100k miles of experience. I don't give a hoot about some fancy
"certification".


Over 35,000 American motorists die in a typical year. About 750
bicyclists die in a typical year. Every study done on the subject has
shown that the health and longevity benefits of bicycling greatly
outweigh its tiny risks.

Man up, stop whining, and learn to ride your bike correctly.


You will obviously never understand what "per mile" means.


I know that John Pucher of Rutgers has published (in "Making Walking
and Cycling Safer: Lessons from Europe") an estimate from U.S. data that
bicyclists suffer 109 fatalities per billion km ridden. Pedestrians
suffer 362 fatalities per billion km, three times as bad.

Those numbers work out to 5.7 million miles ridden, or 1.7 million miles
walked, per fatality. Pucher's later estimates from U.S. data were even
more favorable, over ten million miles ridden per fatality.

If bicycling is far safer PER MILE than even walking, why do you pretend
it's dangerous?


When you run out of arguments you veer off topic, again and again. We
are talking motor vehicles versus bicycles. Stay on topic. I know it's
hard for you :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #105  
Old July 11th 17, 03:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Handlebar rotation

On 7/10/2017 5:10 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-10 13:48, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2017 3:41 PM, Joerg wrote:


What you really mean is, your beliefs and my beliefs differ.

Now, I know that I've gone through four separate training or
certification programs regarding cycling education. I've contributed,
through pre-production editing, to two well-respected books on cycling
education. I've written many articles for cycling publications, some of
which have been reprinted in multiple states and countries. I've
corresponded with and talked in person with people who are nationally
recognized as cycling experts. As recently as ten days ago, one of them
asked permission to use some of my writing (a review of a bike-related
academic paper). I bike commuted for many decades until I retired. I've
done countless bike trips and tours from overnight to summer-long. I've
ridden in something like a dozen countries. I've held multiple offices
in my bike club, and for seven or eight years ran our century ride when
it won a national award. I've done many century-plus rides, including
one double century.


Are you done with boasting now?


I could go on, but I suspect there's no need. Your qualifications don't
match what I've described so far. All you have is your hubris.

Instead of going further with that, let me stop and ask your
qualifications.


Over 100k miles of experience. I don't give a hoot about some fancy
"certification".


Of course you don't. Just like the garbage men getting drunk in the
dive bar don't give a hoot about a high school diploma.

"We don't need to learn nothing. We know just as much as any goddamn
PhD. Just ask us!"


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #106  
Old July 11th 17, 07:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Handlebar rotation

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 22:48:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/10/2017 10:09 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 12:26:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-10 10:54, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2017 1:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-09 11:32, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2017 10:44 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-08 15:59, jbeattie wrote:


When was the last time you were hurt on a bike? Were you hit by a
car?


No but that is because I am primarily using a mountain bike, the way
it was meant to be used. The reason I got hurt a lot as a kid was that
I used a regular bicycle on motocross tracks without wearing any
protective gear.

Other people's accidents did not always involved a direct collision
but many were caused by evasive action because of car drivers (often
truck drivers).

Maybe we should do a little survey of posters to this discussion group.
What was your last on-road bike-related injury? Was it because you were
hit by a car? Was it because you were taking evasive action to avoid
being hit by a car? Or what was the cause?

I suppose if people prefer, they could give counts of all their bike
injury incidents instead of just the last one.

I don't have much to contribute. Since 1972: I slid out on gravel at
about 5 mph creeping down a very steep, short hill on a city street. I
scraped my knee. And the front forks of our custom tandem snapped off
on a bumpy road at about 10 mph or less. I banged up my shoulder. So
that's one crash with the most common cause, which is the road surface;
and one crash by a relatively rare cause, component failure.

My wife's on road crashes are also two. She was on the back of the
tandem when it crashed, but she wasn't injured, just shaken up. And
many years ago, on a club ride, someone slammed on their brakes
unnecessarily in front of her. She avoided that person as she stopped,
but another rider ran into her from behind and knocked her down. Again,
no injury, just a fall. We were about 20 miles into an 80 mile ride,
which we all finished.

More detail on the final crash above: The person who caused the chain
reaction crash had slammed on the brakes because they were afraid of a
passing truck. But none of the others (including me, leading the ride)
braked because of the truck. It just wasn't necessary at all. So that
crash was actually caused not by the truck, but by timidity.


No, it was caused by reckless cyclist behavior. Every respectable
teacher in driver's ed teaches their students to keep an adequate
distance from the vehicle up front. One Mississippi, two Mississippi.
Simple. Failing to do so will one day result in a crash like you
described. It doesn't have to be timidity. It could be as simple as an
animal running into the road.

You're deflecting again.

Tell us about your recent injuries, Joerg. Tell us about their causes.
Restrict it to on-road if you like. I'm saying most bike injuries are
minor and do not involve cars. You're claiming something else. What's
your experience?


Depends on what you call "recent". I had a 15+ year cycling hiatus on
account of lacking cycle path infrastructure. When that got better I
started riding again in 2013. No road injuries since then but several
evasive actions required because of motorists.


No f****** way! You were off your bike for 15 years because of lack of "cycle path infrastructure"? Incroyable. I rode to work or school most every day for decades without so much as a whiff of cycle path infrastructure.


It's possible Joerg did stop cycling for 15 years. He seems like a very
timid guy indeed - one who tries to compensate via wild tales of
imaginary dangers he's barely survived.

I once knew a young kid who did the same thing, complete with the sound
effects. "Kaboom!" But that kid was too young to bolster his machismo
by constantly bragging about beer.



I am beginning to lean more toward "post traumatic stress response
disorder" (PTSD) as while it is often associated with combat troops
"who have experienced a shocking, scary, or dangerous event". This is
only one cause as for example, troops who are under continued stress,
even though it may be mental stress only, have also exhibited the
symptoms.

While, I believe, the term was first used in reference to combat
troops it is now applied to others who have had traumatic experiences.

Additionally, the event does not have to actually be death threatening
event it only has to be an event that the individual who has the
experience believes to be threatening, or hideous, or any other strong
fear related emotion.

Riding a bicycle under what the rider views as dangerious conditions
could, if continued, result in am emotional condition where,
regardless of reality, the victim would view bicycles as dangerious
devices that required almost super human bravery to ride.

In addition this supposed "super human bravery" in participating in a
supposed dangerious even might also bolster the individual's self
esteem, See guys, how brave I am".

A rather chicken and egg situation where one voluntarily participates
in an activity, vied as extremely dangerious, in order to prove his
bravery which in turn gives him the fortitude to participate in the
activity which he fears.....



--
Cheers,

John B.

  #107  
Old July 11th 17, 03:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Handlebar rotation

On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 11:10:11 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 22:48:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/10/2017 10:09 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 12:26:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-10 10:54, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2017 1:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-09 11:32, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2017 10:44 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-08 15:59, jbeattie wrote:


When was the last time you were hurt on a bike? Were you hit by a
car?


No but that is because I am primarily using a mountain bike, the way
it was meant to be used. The reason I got hurt a lot as a kid was that
I used a regular bicycle on motocross tracks without wearing any
protective gear.

Other people's accidents did not always involved a direct collision
but many were caused by evasive action because of car drivers (often
truck drivers).

Maybe we should do a little survey of posters to this discussion group.
What was your last on-road bike-related injury? Was it because you were
hit by a car? Was it because you were taking evasive action to avoid
being hit by a car? Or what was the cause?

I suppose if people prefer, they could give counts of all their bike
injury incidents instead of just the last one.

I don't have much to contribute. Since 1972: I slid out on gravel at
about 5 mph creeping down a very steep, short hill on a city street. I
scraped my knee. And the front forks of our custom tandem snapped off
on a bumpy road at about 10 mph or less. I banged up my shoulder. So
that's one crash with the most common cause, which is the road surface;
and one crash by a relatively rare cause, component failure.

My wife's on road crashes are also two. She was on the back of the
tandem when it crashed, but she wasn't injured, just shaken up. And
many years ago, on a club ride, someone slammed on their brakes
unnecessarily in front of her. She avoided that person as she stopped,
but another rider ran into her from behind and knocked her down. Again,
no injury, just a fall. We were about 20 miles into an 80 mile ride,
which we all finished.

More detail on the final crash above: The person who caused the chain
reaction crash had slammed on the brakes because they were afraid of a
passing truck. But none of the others (including me, leading the ride)
braked because of the truck. It just wasn't necessary at all. So that
crash was actually caused not by the truck, but by timidity.


No, it was caused by reckless cyclist behavior. Every respectable
teacher in driver's ed teaches their students to keep an adequate
distance from the vehicle up front. One Mississippi, two Mississippi.
Simple. Failing to do so will one day result in a crash like you
described. It doesn't have to be timidity. It could be as simple as an
animal running into the road.

You're deflecting again.

Tell us about your recent injuries, Joerg. Tell us about their causes.
Restrict it to on-road if you like. I'm saying most bike injuries are
minor and do not involve cars. You're claiming something else. What's
your experience?


Depends on what you call "recent". I had a 15+ year cycling hiatus on
account of lacking cycle path infrastructure. When that got better I
started riding again in 2013. No road injuries since then but several
evasive actions required because of motorists.

No f****** way! You were off your bike for 15 years because of lack of "cycle path infrastructure"? Incroyable. I rode to work or school most every day for decades without so much as a whiff of cycle path infrastructure..


It's possible Joerg did stop cycling for 15 years. He seems like a very
timid guy indeed - one who tries to compensate via wild tales of
imaginary dangers he's barely survived.

I once knew a young kid who did the same thing, complete with the sound
effects. "Kaboom!" But that kid was too young to bolster his machismo
by constantly bragging about beer.



I am beginning to lean more toward "post traumatic stress response
disorder" (PTSD) as while it is often associated with combat troops
"who have experienced a shocking, scary, or dangerous event". This is
only one cause as for example, troops who are under continued stress,
even though it may be mental stress only, have also exhibited the
symptoms.

While, I believe, the term was first used in reference to combat
troops it is now applied to others who have had traumatic experiences.

Additionally, the event does not have to actually be death threatening
event it only has to be an event that the individual who has the
experience believes to be threatening, or hideous, or any other strong
fear related emotion.

Riding a bicycle under what the rider views as dangerious conditions
could, if continued, result in am emotional condition where,
regardless of reality, the victim would view bicycles as dangerious
devices that required almost super human bravery to ride.

In addition this supposed "super human bravery" in participating in a
supposed dangerious even might also bolster the individual's self
esteem, See guys, how brave I am".

A rather chicken and egg situation where one voluntarily participates
in an activity, vied as extremely dangerious, in order to prove his
bravery which in turn gives him the fortitude to participate in the
activity which he fears.....


Well, there are some ****ty places to ride that make it feel like you're in Death Race 2000 -- particularly around here where shoulderless rural farm roads have turned into clogged arterials between suburban McMansion developments. If not scary, they are exhausting. But I couldn't imagine not riding, and if I were stuck in a city where riding was truly impossible, I'd move. If I were Joerg, I'd move to Folsom, the alleged bicycle paradise.

-- Jay Beattie.





  #108  
Old July 11th 17, 03:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 12:41:36 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

No, but they can elect not to cross roadways outside of traffic lights
and then walking is very safe. Unless a terrorist or a drunk plows into
you which is rare.


Where are you getting this from? More pedestrians trip over cracks in the pavement and are hauled away in ambulances ON THE SIDEWALK than cyclists that are killed in traffic.

We cyclists can often elect to use segregated bike paths which I always
do. Same effect. On most of my paths it would take a car becoming
airborne and then flying a long stretch to crash into me. Thing is, they
do not have wings.


You are afraid of cars. Fine. But don't invent scenarios in which you would be killed on the roads by road raged drivers because these sorts of people are few and far between.
  #109  
Old July 11th 17, 03:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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On 2017-07-10 18:48, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 10:31:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-09 18:22, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 09 Jul 2017 09:18:12 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-07-09 07:44, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-08 15:59, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, July 8, 2017 at 3:06:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-08 14:39, Frank Krygowski wrote:


[...]

" lights cause a
reduction in simply toppling off a bike? Unless, that is, the people
who applied to get the lights and vouch for... oops, "study" their
effectiveness were simply being a lot more careful than normal riders?


Falling off a bike is not the main cause of injury or death. Colliding
with motor vehicles is.

Car collisions account for about a third of all bicycle related injury
accidents nationally -- meaning two-thirds are not car-related.
http://www.pedbikeinfo.org/data/factsheet_crash.cfm

When was the last time you were hurt on a bike? Were you hit by a car?


No but that is because I am primarily using a mountain bike, the way it
was meant to be used. The reason I got hurt a lot as a kid was that I
used a regular bicycle on motocross tracks without wearing any
protective gear.

Other people's accidents did not always involved a direct collision but
many were caused by evasive action because of car drivers (often truck
drivers).


In case by "hurt" you meant any sort of injury and not just very serious
ones, I had several vehicle collisions with a manageable degree of
injury. For example:

Driver pulled out into main road, said he grossly underestimated my
speed ... *BAM* ... my body dented the side of his Volkswagen Polo (used
to be called Fox in the US) so badly that I had to help the old guy
getting out. The driver side door would no longer open from the inside.
Lots of bruises, a pretzeled bike, and I vowed never to buy such a car.

Another: I had a green light, stepped on it, the obviously impatient
driver of a Mercedes 280S decided he can still do a left turn before I
get there, floored it, didn't work ... *BAM* ... I hit the right rear
fender. He fled the scene.

Plus a few other incidents.

Two of my university buddies were not so lucky. Both hit from behind, in
the lane, in the city (Aachen, Germany). Serious with a hospital trip
each. One had a ruptured spleen, the other lost a kidney. In one of the
cases the offending motorist helped my half conscious friend to a phone
booth close by to call an ambulance and then he quietly high-tailed it.

You mean that you ran into two cars and it was their fault?


Yes. The driver's fault.


Amazing!



What is amazing about it? One driver made a mistake. It happens. The
other driver was reckless and probably in some hurry.

There were numerous other such events but I was able to avoid a crash.
One of them only because I was on my MTB which has powerful hydraulic
disc brakes that work the same regardless of weather. Else I'd have
scraped up the side of a nice Porsche.

I had one accident with a motor vehicle not caused by the driver. Me in
the lane, light turned yellow, driver before me slammed on the brakes. I
had sufficient safety distance but at that moment the cable for my front
brake snapped. I dinged the rear bumper of the guy's BMW. No damage
though because the rear slowed me down enough.


I can only assume that either you have a vivid imagination or that you
are some sort of idiot that rides much faster then the conditions
allow.


Huh? I am one of the few cyclists in the area (and probably on this NG)
who does not draft or tailgate. If you read again you see that it was
simply equipment failure. Happens. It even happened to me in cars,
twice. Stepped on the pedal, no brakes.


I am reasonably sure that my two wheel experience exceeds your by
quite a number of years and I have never, with any two wheel vehicle,
hit another vehicle hard enough to cause any visible damage to the
other vehicle. Never.


No brake failures? Then you were lucky. I also had a few other events
such as side wall blow-outs which can make for an interesting few
seconds before you get the ride stopped.


(I would also add that I have never had a brake cable snap which
probably says something about comparative levels of maintenance)


It was a fairly new cable. The bike shop owner said it happens, and if
it does usually early on.


But this is not to say that I have never seen a two wheeler hit a car.
A bloke that was in my class in collage hit a car. He was riding a
Harley down a sidewalk at what he said was "about 35 mph" and a car
"pulled out in front of him". Actually the car was on a side street
and stopped at an intersection. He hit the rear door. The results was
a dented door and a broken collar bone.

I suppose that today this would be described as "an accident" although
when it happened the fellow on the motorcycle described it as "a
damned fool stunt, that I'd not have done if I hadn't had all that
beer".



That's stupid behavior.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #110  
Old July 11th 17, 03:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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On 2017-07-10 19:09, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 12:26:05 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-10 10:54, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/10/2017 1:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-09 11:32, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/9/2017 10:44 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-07-08 15:59, jbeattie wrote:


When was the last time you were hurt on a bike? Were you
hit by a car?


No but that is because I am primarily using a mountain
bike, the way it was meant to be used. The reason I got
hurt a lot as a kid was that I used a regular bicycle on
motocross tracks without wearing any protective gear.

Other people's accidents did not always involved a direct
collision but many were caused by evasive action because of
car drivers (often truck drivers).

Maybe we should do a little survey of posters to this
discussion group. What was your last on-road bike-related
injury? Was it because you were hit by a car? Was it
because you were taking evasive action to avoid being hit by
a car? Or what was the cause?

I suppose if people prefer, they could give counts of all
their bike injury incidents instead of just the last one.

I don't have much to contribute. Since 1972: I slid out on
gravel at about 5 mph creeping down a very steep, short hill
on a city street. I scraped my knee. And the front forks of
our custom tandem snapped off on a bumpy road at about 10 mph
or less. I banged up my shoulder. So that's one crash with
the most common cause, which is the road surface; and one
crash by a relatively rare cause, component failure.

My wife's on road crashes are also two. She was on the back
of the tandem when it crashed, but she wasn't injured, just
shaken up. And many years ago, on a club ride, someone
slammed on their brakes unnecessarily in front of her. She
avoided that person as she stopped, but another rider ran
into her from behind and knocked her down. Again, no injury,
just a fall. We were about 20 miles into an 80 mile ride,
which we all finished.

More detail on the final crash above: The person who caused
the chain reaction crash had slammed on the brakes because
they were afraid of a passing truck. But none of the others
(including me, leading the ride) braked because of the truck.
It just wasn't necessary at all. So that crash was actually
caused not by the truck, but by timidity.


No, it was caused by reckless cyclist behavior. Every
respectable teacher in driver's ed teaches their students to
keep an adequate distance from the vehicle up front. One
Mississippi, two Mississippi. Simple. Failing to do so will one
day result in a crash like you described. It doesn't have to be
timidity. It could be as simple as an animal running into the
road.

You're deflecting again.

Tell us about your recent injuries, Joerg. Tell us about their
causes. Restrict it to on-road if you like. I'm saying most bike
injuries are minor and do not involve cars. You're claiming
something else. What's your experience?


Depends on what you call "recent". I had a 15+ year cycling hiatus
on account of lacking cycle path infrastructure. When that got
better I started riding again in 2013. No road injuries since then
but several evasive actions required because of motorists.


No f****** way! You were off your bike for 15 years because of lack
of "cycle path infrastructure"? Incroyable. I rode to work or school
most every day for decades without so much as a whiff of cycle path
infrastructure.


We had a few nasty accidents and cyclist fatalities in our neighborhood.
That was enough. Except for hardcore training riders you rarely saw
cyclists. Then they started putting in bike paths and bike lanes and,
predictably, that substantially changed things. Also for me. It's that
simple.

The same way I never walk to the store (well, now I ride) even though in
Europe we did that all the time. Hardly anyone else does either. Because
it is a 45mph thoroughfare, no sidewalk and often not even a shoulder.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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