Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On 12/12/2010 5:12 PM, Duane Hebert wrote:
"Frank wrote in message
...
On Dec 12, 1:32 am, Dan wrote:
On Dec 11, 9:39 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI

$southslope.net" wrote:
On 12/11/2010 7:15 PM, DirtRoadie WHO? ANONYMOUSLY SNIPES:

So when Duane writes a paragraph saying that Quebec motorist will run
down from behind a cyclist on a pleasant country lane, I paraphrase
that as "Danger! Danger!"

Are you talking about the time that I told you that a motorist bumped me
from behind? I told you repeatedly that it was no big deal. My point was,
given a separate bike path parallel to the road, I would prefer to ride
there without traffic to worry about. To you this is a problem for some
reason. Of course, I'm a coward for that sentiment.

And just as an additional point of fact, when you first attacked me for
even mentioning that I prefer not to ride in traffic, 6 cyclists were
run down from behind on a road in Rougemont Quebec and 3 died on the
scene. Which you went on to try to interpret as statistically
insignificant.

On 12/13/2010 12:13 AM, DirtRoadie wrote:
On Dec 12, 3:12 pm, "Duane wrote:
How can you argue with James' personal experience? Just because it's
different than yours, in a city where a motorist only sees 1
cyclist in a half hour?

Duane, I hope you won't mind my correcting your figures but you seem
to have (over) exaggerated the number of cyclists in Frank's area by a
factor of ~48.

What Frank said was:
"The typical motorist around here probably doesn't pass even one
cyclist per day."
See
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...22e961a8c7c8a6

Now that, being Frank's claim, is probably not factually reliable, but
it IS what he said. ;-)

So his campaign for vehicular cycling must really be taking off...

On Dec 13, 12:38*am, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Dec 12, 4:22*pm, DirtRoadie wrote:

On Dec 12, 1:22*pm, RobertH wrote:

You get a lot of 'depends' on this question because it does depend.

Frank Krygowski would never let details like details get in the way of
his obsession with taking control. He's that kind of a guy.

I'm constantly on narrow roads where this happens -- like here, which
is convenient to my house:http://www.flickr.com/photos/old_sarge/100926333/
(minus the closure from a mud slide a few years ago -- which we rode
around). *Anyway, all you do is hold your line along the right side of
the road, and trucks go around. *

OK, how wide would you say that lane is? It looks narrow - perhaps
ten feet wide? And it appears that letting your wheel drop off the
pavement _would_ be dangerous, right?

Seems that unless the lane is wider than ten feet, or your wheels are
closer than one foot to the dropoff, an 8.5 foot truck can't pass you
without crossing the line.

If there is no oncoming traffic, the trucker won't be delayed by
having to cross well into the next lane. Crossing the line by two
feet or five feet should be all the same to him. If the cyclist is
far enough left to make him do that, it hurts nothing.

If there is oncoming traffic, and the trucker decides there's enough
room to squeeze by in your lane because you're at far right, you're in
a dangerous situation. You'll have a truck literally brushing your
left shoulder. You can't get more clearance by riding to the right;
that's likely to make you fall, and in that situation it could kill
you.

If you ride toward the center, the trucker can see it's impossible to
pass within the lane. If you're obvious about it, he may be able to
see it far enough in advance to time his passing with a gap in
oncoming traffic, which benefits everybody. But it there's no gap,
he'll have to wait until there is one, which is the only safe thing
for him to do.

So Jay, if you have an 8.5 foot truck (as I postulated) and you "hold
your line," where is your line? Are you riding 6" from the dropoff?
One foot? Two feet, or what? And how close do wide trucks pass?

I would never in a million years pull
OUT if a truck were approaching, unless I were on a bridge or in some
place where a squeeze was inevitable.

Unless I'm mis-judging the lane width in your photo, that road is such
a place. With oncoming traffic a squeeze would be inevitable, unless
the cyclist was smart enough.

And BTW, pulling out in front of a truck isn't done at the last
second. It's done when the truck is far enough back that he has
_plenty_ of time to react.

*It also begs the question of
how long you stay out in front of the truck. *That section of the
Clackamas River Road is miles long without a turn off -- how long
should I sit in the lane? *Ten minutes. Twenty minutes at 12mph
promenade pace? * It would be exhausting having some truck sitting
behind me for that long.

To turn the question around: How soon do you want to trust an unknown
motorist to squeeze by with inches to spare, and not inadvertently
bump you off the road or worse?

In any case, I (or we, that is my cycling friends) ride similar roads
all the time. Most pleasant country roads around here are narrow and
get relatively little traffic - little enough that any wait to safely
pass is not long, usually far less than 20 seconds. It is just not a
problem.

OTOH, there is one ex-country road near here that now handles lots of
suburban "short cut" traffic. Because of terrain, the county hasn't
been able to widen it. So it's narrow, 35 mph and usually busy. I
avoid it when I can, which is almost always. The last time I had to
ride it, since there was NO safe way to allow passing, I pulled off to
let traffic by whenever it was reasonable.

But let's remember, at least in Ohio, I _do_ have a right to ride that
road, and I _do_ have a specific right to ride far enough out to
prevent unsafe passing. To me, doing so comes under the heading of
"taking responsibility for my own safety."

- Frank Krygowski

On Dec 13, 10:59*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[A long rant ignoring the concept ignoring the concept goal of brevity
and throwing in his usual rhetorical BS]
The quick summary of what he said is:

"IT DEPENDS"

Frank, wouldn't it have been simpler to just say that?

I know that might suggest that other people were 100% correct when
they said "it depends."

It would further suggest that your overt hostility toward them was out
of line.

Can't have that, it takes away your presumed aura of control. You
must agree.

DR

http://www.flickr.com/photos/old_sarge/100926333/
(minus the closure from a mud slide a few years ago -- which we rode
around). Anyway, all you do is hold your line along the right side of
the road, and trucks go around.

So Jay, if you have an 8.5 foot truck (as I postulated) and you "hold
your line," where is your line? Are you riding 6" from the dropoff?
One foot? Two feet, or what? And how close do wide trucks pass?

I would never in a million years pull
OUT if a truck were approaching, unless I were on a bridge or in some
place where a squeeze was inevitable.

Unless I'm mis-judging the lane width in your photo, that road is such
a place. With oncoming traffic a squeeze would be inevitable, unless
the cyclist was smart enough.

And BTW, pulling out in front of a truck isn't done at the last
second. It's done when the truck is far enough back that he has
_plenty_ of time to react.

Frank, I'm still not sure how you would ride in this situation. How far from
the edge would you be when there was nobody behind you? Would you move
farther left when a truck approaches, or would you always ride in the middle
of the lane and just hold your line? And if so, would you then move right if
a motorcycle overtakes you? What about a lane that's slightly wider - wide
enough to allow safe passing by a small car but not a big truck - would you
move left when a truck approaches but not for the car?

On Dec 13, 4:12*pm, "Barry" wrote:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/old_sarge/100926333/
(minus the closure from a mud slide a few years ago -- which we rode
around). Anyway, all you do is hold your line along the right side of
the road, and trucks go around.
So Jay, if you have an 8.5 foot truck (as I postulated) and you "hold
your line," where is your line? *Are you riding 6" from the dropoff?
One foot? *Two feet, or what? * And how close do wide trucks pass?
I would never in a million years pull
OUT if a truck were approaching, unless I were on a bridge or in some
place where a squeeze was inevitable.
Unless I'm mis-judging the lane width in your photo, that road is such
a place. *With oncoming traffic a squeeze would be inevitable, unless
the cyclist was smart enough.
And BTW, pulling out in front of a truck isn't done at the last
second. *It's done when the truck is far enough back that he has
_plenty_ of time to react.

Frank, I'm still not sure how you would ride in this situation. *How far from
the edge would you be when there was nobody behind you?

When there's nobody behind me, I generally ride the right half of the
lane, maybe out as far as dead center. We're in an area where freeze-
thaw cycles attack the pavement, so I'm usually trying for the
smoothest pavement. When nobody's behind me, lane position is less
critical, so smoothness can be a goal.

*Would you move
farther left when a truck approaches, or would you always ride in the middle
of the lane and just hold your line?

If I had been (say) 1.5 feet from the right because that's where it
was smoothest, and if I saw in my mirror a truck approaching, I'd move
to the center. That's assuming a non-sharable lane. If I were
already in the middle, I'd stay there. And of course, "middle"
doesn't necessarily mean precise center.

*And if so, would you then move right if a motorcycle overtakes you? *

Probably.

What about a lane that's slightly wider - wide
enough to allow safe passing by a small car but not a big truck - would you
move left when a truck approaches but not for the car?

Yes.

- Frank Krygowski

On Dec 13, 10:59 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:

If there is oncoming traffic, and the trucker decides there's enough
room to squeeze by in your lane because you're at far right, you're in
a dangerous situation. You'll have a truck literally brushing your
left shoulder. You can't get more clearance by riding to the right;
that's likely to make you fall, and in that situation it could kill
you.

When Frank writes a paragraph like this, I paraphras it as "Danger!"
Danger!"

Actually this is about the most hysterical sounding warning that
anybody has written in the "Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009" thread or
threadlets.

On Dec 13, 2:36*pm, RobertH wrote:
On Dec 13, 10:59 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:

If there is oncoming traffic, and the trucker decides there's enough
room to squeeze by in your lane because you're at far right, you're in
a dangerous situation. *You'll have a truck literally brushing your
left shoulder. *You can't get more clearance by riding to the right;
that's likely to make you fall, and in that situation it could kill
you.

When Frank writes a paragraph like this, I paraphrase it as "Danger!"
Danger!"

It can mean nothing else!

Actually this is about the most hysterical sounding warning that
anybody has written in the "Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009" thread or
threadlets.

Thanks for the heads up. Once it became clear that Frank was saying
"It depends," I saw no reason to read his post in detail.

It is a shame he is so fearful.
Maybe he should consider something less dangerous than cycling.

DR

On Dec 13, 10:59*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:

If there is oncoming traffic, and the trucker decides there's enough
room to squeeze by in your lane because you're at far right, you're in
a dangerous situation. *You'll have a truck literally brushing your
left shoulder. *You can't get more clearance by riding to the right;
that's likely to make you fall, and in that situation it could kill
you.

I'd love to offer a parody version but this is more ironic than
anything I could provide. Grab the popcorn, let's see how Frank
insults the cowardly and fearful cyclist who wrote the words above.

DR

On Dec 13, 9:59*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 13, 12:38*am, Jay Beattie wrote:

On Dec 12, 4:22*pm, DirtRoadie wrote:

On Dec 12, 1:22*pm, RobertH wrote:

You get a lot of 'depends' on this question because it does depend.

Frank Krygowski would never let details like details get in the way of
his obsession with taking control. He's that kind of a guy.

I'm constantly on narrow roads where this happens -- like here, which
is convenient to my house:http://www.flickr.com/photos/old_sarge/100926333/
(minus the closure from a mud slide a few years ago -- which we rode
around). *Anyway, all you do is hold your line along the right side of
the road, and trucks go around. *

OK, how wide would you say that lane is? *It looks narrow - perhaps
ten feet wide? And it appears that letting your wheel drop off the
pavement _would_ be dangerous, right?

Seems that unless the lane is wider than ten feet, or your wheels are
closer than one foot to the dropoff, an 8.5 foot truck can't pass you
without crossing the line.

If there is no oncoming traffic, the trucker won't be delayed by
having to cross well into the next lane. *Crossing the line by two
feet or five feet should be all the same to him. *If the cyclist is
far enough left to make him do that, it hurts nothing.

If there is oncoming traffic, and the trucker decides there's enough
room to squeeze by in your lane because you're at far right, you're in
a dangerous situation. *You'll have a truck literally brushing your
left shoulder. *You can't get more clearance by riding to the right;
that's likely to make you fall, and in that situation it could kill
you.



If you ride toward the center, the trucker can see it's impossible to
pass within the lane. *If you're obvious about it, he may be able to
see it far enough in advance to time his passing with a gap in
oncoming traffic, which benefits everybody. *But it there's no gap,
he'll have to wait until there is one, which is the only safe thing
for him to do.

So Jay, if you have an 8.5 foot truck (as I postulated) and you "hold
your line," where is your line? *Are you riding 6" from the dropoff?
One foot? *Two feet, or what? * And how close do wide trucks pass?

I ride as far right as is practicable, meaning where there are no
giant pot holes (not many on that road), gravel, etc. Sometimes I
ride out in the road when no one is around, usually because I am
riding with a friend, and we roll along chatting. Traffic shows up,
and I (or he) drops back and we pull in. If it is a big truck, it
goes over the centerline no matter where we are located -- they just
do that. Motorcycles whip around in the same lane (there are lots of
them on the Clackamas River Road). Normal cars straddle. If I saw a
squeeze coming, I might ride out in to the road (like I have said),
but I wouldn't stay there. I'd pull back over just as soon as the
squeeze point was passed (e.g. a car coming in the other lane, and
obstacle, etc.) I certainly don't make a point of "controlling
traffic" on that road.

OTOH, there is one ex-country road near here that now handles lots of
suburban "short cut" traffic. *Because of terrain, the county hasn't
been able to widen it. *So it's narrow, 35 mph and usually busy. *I
avoid it when I can, which is almost always. *The last time I had to
ride it, since there was NO safe way to allow passing, I pulled off to
let traffic by whenever it was reasonable.

I ride on those kinds of roads all the time because of our idiotic
development of suburbs without developing infrastructure. I play it
by ear. The problem is lack of sight lines. You ride out in the
middle of the road on the other side of a blind turn, and you get
whacked -- there is no room for correction by the cars. It's like
having a deer in the middle of the road rather than on the side the
side.


But let's remember, at least in Ohio, I _do_ have a right to ride that
road, and I _do_ have a specific right to ride far enough out to
prevent unsafe passing. * To me, doing so comes under the heading of
"taking responsibility for my own safety."

It sometimes comes under the heading of "hall monitor," too. -- Jay
Beattie.