Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On 12/23/2010 7:47 AM, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/23/2010 1:13 AM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 12/22/2010 12:51 PM, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/22/2010 1:47 PM, RobertH wrote:
On Dec 22, 10:15 am, Frank wrote:

Most cars and
trucks -- even 8 1/2 foot-wide trucks -- cross the center-line and go
around -- and they do it safely (by any ordinary definition of the
term).

Most do. However, when I do control a lane, _all_ do. ...

Negative.

These sorts of absolutist statements instantly betray your lack of
experience.

Seeing the other thread about the lady killed by the truck makes
one wonder. For example, how you control the lane when the driver is at
the end of a Boston to LA red-eye with nothing but Benzedrine and
caffeine in his veins. Moving to the center of the lane work for you?

D A N G E R !

D A N G E R !


WTF?

Example:
http://www.prlog.org/10190468-recently-upgraded-falmouth-maine-wastewater-treatment-facility.jpg

It's getting old Tom.

Indeed, the infrastructure needs upgrading.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 12/23/2010 12:21 PM, Duane Hébert wrote:
[...]
What I fear is that some idiot zealot
like you is going to talk themselves into a position where they
can influence children who don't know better.[...]

T H I N K


O F T H E


C H I L D R E N !

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On Dec 23, 3:34 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 23, 2:00 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:



On Dec 22, 10:01 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Dec 23, 12:41 am, RobertH wrote:

On Dec 22, 9:41 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

If you're responding to me, you'd do better to discuss what I've said,
rather than what "some" have said. And if you review, I've said I do
share wide lanes, even though I've seen benefits to being further
left.

Sounds pretty wishy washy all the sudden.

:-) Really? Compared to you?

Robert, though this entire discussion, I'm the one who has been giving
almost all numbers. You and most others have been saying just "It
depends," usually with no further explanation. And I see you've
ignored my last repeat request: "To keep it simple, let's review the
8.5' truck trying to get by in a 10' lane. Where do you ride, again?"

In the street depicted in the video and graphic, where would you ride?

If you're talking about the video athttp://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2010/11/29/helping-motorists-with...
I'd probably be at lane center. If it is ten feet wide (which I
suspect) that would put me at about 5 feet. As the first car and the
school bus clearly show, there's not enough lane width to safely
share.

Now your turn. Where would you ride in that lane?

As far right as is practicable. I don't see any danger of unsafe
passing. In fact, no one did pass unsafely, even when the rider was
far right. Three open lanes with light traffic does not spell danger
to me.

Actually, the rider never was at far right. The video illustrates the
difference between riding in the right tire track or riding at lane
center, or a bit further left. And it does seem like motorists sorted
things out more quickly when the cyclist was further left. No?

I don't like their title: "Lane Control vs. Right Tire Track." If
you really wanted to see an alternative to lane control, you'd have to
record the results of riding down the fog line. But I can see why the
cyclist wouldn't want to try that, even if some posting here might.


Actually, on most of the road that I ride, right of the fog line -
completely out of the lane and on the shoulder - is the way best
*position* when being passed, although there can be more debris out
there, which is a drag.

This is a fair and realistic approach to narrow roads:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKSVwhLMjBk

That's pretty good. There are a few times I'd be a bit further left
than that rider. But again, I know cyclists who would be on the fog
line whenever a car passed.

I suppose we could ask everyone where they would ride in the lane at
different time points in that video. Unfortunately, I doubt we'd get
much more light on this subject. :-(


I haven't seen the video, and even if I had, it's an academic exercise
altogether different than what goes on when Riding Bike. If you're
into programming automated systems, that's all well and good FWIW ,
but the real world is chock full of infinite chaos - you know that.
C'mon, embrace it ;-)

Anyone interested can find more videos athttp://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/on-the-road/the-confident-cyclist/


Thanks, but I tried that other link on two different computers and
couldn't see any video (some kind of embedded vimeo frame just
wouldn't render, I guess.) Besides, while it was fun watching Kenny
Roberts powersliding at Indy today (Thanks, Jobst - now I've got that
itch in my crotch again :-), your idea of action just isn't my bag,
man.

I went back downtown today to look at Boy Scout's Christmas trees at
the store across from the post office. This time I took the sidewalk
from kitchen door to main st (tasty dropaway onto leafy grass across
the street and then a deep dropaway onto gravel). Right at main and
sidewalk wheeljie until car passes. Jump driveway curb onto main.
Wheeljie. Cars coming behind - also ahead, but ahead way up there.
Ride far left down main to driveway near store, back onto the
sidewalk, and into the store parking lot. Whee!

Other times, I ride straight and steady for miles and miles and miles,
picking the best line, keeping "as far right as practicable" in
mind.. if it's ridable, though, it's pretty much up for grabs :-).
Ride Bike!

On 12/23/2010 8:57 PM, James Steward wrote:
Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:

Now we have the gang together congratulating each other.

And Tom, as usual, not contributing anything of worth.

JS

And the mutual admiration society is a worthwhile contribution?

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Dan O wrote:

I went back downtown today to look at Boy Scout's Christmas trees at
the store across from the post office. This time I took the sidewalk
from kitchen door to main st (tasty dropaway onto leafy grass across
the street and then a deep dropaway onto gravel). Right at main and
sidewalk wheeljie until car passes. Jump driveway curb onto main.
Wheeljie. Cars coming behind - also ahead, but ahead way up there.
Ride far left down main to driveway near store, back onto the
sidewalk, and into the store parking lot. Whee!

Other times, I ride straight and steady for miles and miles and miles,
picking the best line, keeping "as far right as practicable" in
mind.. if it's ridable, though, it's pretty much up for grabs :-).
Ride Bike!

Too wet to ride road bike last week. Took the MTB out for a spin. Up
the fire trails on Mt. D. and back. Some climbs and descents over 20%.
Going up it was hard to keep the front wheel down and the back wheel
not breaking traction. Came down a very wet track with some rocks and
mud. Came to a bend and there was a puddle as wide as the track and
about 14 foot long. Just had to charge in, no room to stop. Bike came
to a standstill as the mud was pretty thick. Had to put a foot down in
it - ugh - check for leeches. Home the last few kms on the black stuff
and under the hose to clean up before the better half saw me ;-) Fun!
Ride Bike indeed.

Cheers,
James.

On Dec 23, 7:07*pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 12/23/2010 12:21 PM, Duane H bert wrote:
* [...]

What I fear is that some idiot zealot
like you is going to talk themselves into a position where they
can influence children who don't know better.[...]

T * * * H * * * I * * * N * * * K

O * * * F * * * * * * * T * * * H * * * E

C * * * H * * * I * * * L * * * D * * * R * * * E * * * N * * * !



T H I N K O F T H E C A T S !!!!!!!

On 12/23/2010 10:41 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Dec 23, 7:07 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 12/23/2010 12:21 PM, Duane H bert wrote:
[...]

What I fear is that some idiot zealot
like you is going to talk themselves into a position where they
can influence children who don't know better.[...]

T H I N K

O F T H E

C H I L D R E N !



T H I N K O F T H E C A T S !!!!!!!

No foam hats he
http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/5202664833/sizes/l/in/set-72157625331406609/.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On Dec 23, 8:51*pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 12/23/2010 10:41 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Dec 23, 7:07 pm, T m Sherm n _ ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" *wrote:
On 12/23/2010 12:21 PM, Duane H bert wrote:
* *[...]

What I fear is that some idiot zealot
like you is going to talk themselves into a position where they
can influence children who don't know better.[...]

T * * * H * * * I * * * N * * * K

O * * * F * * * * * * * T * * * H * * * E

C * * * H * * * I * * * L * * * D * * * R * * * E * * * N * * * !

T *H *I *N *K * *O * F * T * H *E * C *A *T *S !!!!!!!

No foam hats he
http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/5202664833/sizes/l/in/set-7....

No, I mean this -- they give more protection than foam, at least
according to the drop tests. http://makerfaire.com/pub/e/733 (scroll
down). -- Jay Beattie.

On 12/23/2010 6:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 23, 1:41 pm, Duane wrote:
On 12/23/2010 1:29 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:



On Dec 23, 1:10 pm, Duane H wrote:
On 12/23/2010 12:37 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Seems you're pretending to know my thoughts, despite my statements
like "And while there are times I'll share a 12 foot lane..." I've
also stated that there are lanes I'll share with a small car, but not
with a large truck. I've stated that we have some 15 foot lanes here,
which I always share.

I think you need to take notes.

How do you "control the lane" when the truck driver is at the end of
a red eye and lit up on Benzedrine?

Duane, if that unlikely "Danger! Danger!" scenario scares you so
much, you need to give up cycling.

So you can't answer the question?

The answer to the question is obvious: You ride in lane center. It
works, despite your paranoia. Remember? 14 million miles ridden in
Quebec between fatalities?

None of which can legally be ridden in the lane center unless
there's an obstruction that forces them there. Quebec Highway
Code section 488. Remember:

487. Subject to section 492, every person on a bicycle must ride on the
extreme right-hand side of the roadway in the same direction as traffic,
except where that space is obstructed or when he is about to make a left
turn.

and just for completeness, this is section 492 sighted above:

492. Where the public highway includes a cycle lane, persons riding a
bicycle other than a power-assisted bicycle must use the cycle lane.

So basically, La Belle Provence n'a pas te besoin ni tes id es.

Ah well. You'll just have to let that sleep-deprived, drug-addled
trucker skim by your shoulder, should he choose to.

My sympathies, once again. Good luck!


Didn't think that you would actually respond to the fact that it's safer
to ride where your ideology is illegal and that there are far more
cyclists here than where you live. Yet you still think that your
controlling the lane VC religion both improves safety and increases
cycling.

On 12/23/2010 9:54 PM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 12/23/2010 4:27 PM, DirtRoadie wrote:
On Dec 23, 1:20 pm, Duane wrote:
On 12/23/2010 3:08 PM, Dan O wrote:





On Dec 23, 10:29 am, Frank wrote:
On Dec 23, 1:10 pm, Duane H wrote:

On 12/23/2010 12:37 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Seems you're pretending to know my thoughts, despite my statements
like "And while there are times I'll share a 12 foot lane..." I've
also stated that there are lanes I'll share with a small car, but
not
with a large truck. I've stated that we have some 15 foot lanes
here,
which I always share.

I think you need to take notes.

How do you "control the lane" when the truck driver is at the
end of
a red eye and lit up on Benzedrine?

Duane, if that unlikely "Danger! Danger!" scenario scares you so
much, you need to give up cycling.

So you can't answer the question?

The answer to the question is obvious: You ride in lane center. It
works, despite your paranoia. Remember? 14 million miles ridden in
Quebec between fatalities?

And who the **** are you to tell someone whether or not they should
ride a frigging bicycle?

It's just advice. Take it or leave it.

But in either case, riding a bike while whining about the danger is
unseemly. PLEASE stop your fear mongering. It's not helping
cyclists.

"Fear mongering (or scaremongering) is the use of fear to influence
the opinions and actions of others towards some specific end. The
feared object or subject is sometimes exaggerated, and the pattern of
fear mongering is usually one of repetition, in order to continuously
reinforce the intended effects of this tactic, sometimes in the form
of a vicious circle"

People have egos. You tactically employ the natural aversion (fear,
if you will) of ridicule in a continuous, repetitious pattern intended
to counter any suggestion contrary to your specific end. You are far
and away the most obsessed person here with influencing the opinion
and actions of others. You employ wild exaggeration and hyperbole to
deride the most ridiculous interpretation that you can conjure of the
offending message. You disregard (omit without indication) points
that you don't have a smarmy and/or supercilious put down for (often
to the point of addressing only ancillary aspects of the message).
You do all this in a way deliberately calculated to suppress the
*person* by manipulating their natural fear of apprearing foolish (or
frightened or incompetent or incurious or innumerate or... )

You deal with dissent by obsessively smearing **** all over it as much
as you can. You are bent on "instructing" everyone in the right
proper way - *your* way - and seem incapable of recognizing different
perspectives, respecting different lifestyles, and acknowledging the
validity of different views. We're just expressing our thoughts and
opinions. You are apparently on some kind of crusade, which wouldn't
be so bad in itself, except that it's long gone perversely off the
rails.

It doesn't work on me anymore. I'm not proud. (I am a jerk
sometimes, too.) Even the exasperation has waned. I sincerely wish
you free of this vitriol for your own good.

Much more eloquent response than mine. Thanks.

I've been actively trying to ignore this idiot but he has
the ability to press buttons that I can't ignore. First it
was his posting his anti helmet crap in threads about dead
cyclist. Today it was his incredible arrogance at instructing
a parent how to teach their child.

But I think that this is part of his plan. He lives for
his lording over lesser intelligences. If we ignore him,
he has to find a way to get us back. If not, he'll go so far as to
create a fictional character and post the same arguments.

I have to try harder to ignore him.

Fortunately, he is back to ignoring me and he hasn't even bothered to
tell me that he's ignoring me. All is right with the world.

But think of it this way - Frank Krygowski is the class clown. He is
recording all his lunacy for posterity. While the thought of him
having kids or grandkids is scary, I relish the thought of his
descendants looking back someday at the record he is leaving behind
and wondering how an ancestor of theirs could be so far out of touch
and so caught up in his own little fantasy world.

It still remains a complete mystery what he might hope to accomplish
by his "One Note Johnny" presentation and badgering of many people in
this group.

He should be very proud;-)

DR

Now we have the gang together congratulating each other.


And the tag team response showing up.