Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On 12/6/2010 2:56 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
Dan considered Mon, 6 Dec 2010 08:22:30 -0800
(PST) the perfect time to write:

On Dec 6, 7:58 am, Frank wrote:
On Dec 6, 10:36 am, Duane wrote:



What I like is the idea that when a bicycle is in front
of a truck, the cyclist is controlling the truck.

The driver is controlling the truck and hopefully he's paying attention,
he sees the cyclist and the truck doesn't have any mechanical issues.

If you want to be pedantic, when the cyclist is properly in front of
the truck in a lane too narrow for safe passing, he is controlling the
use of the lane.


Sure, but the point is your tendency to think you know what everybody
else should be doing.

So Duane, when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's
8' 6" wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?



Depends on what's ahead, first of all. Then depends on if the audible
tells me they've seen me. Then, depends on the shoulder. Then, I go
as far right as the conditions allow, brace for the crosswind, and
hang on.

If you really think you're safer trying to ride in the 18" gap left by
the truck trying to pass in the same lane than by staying wide and
demonstrating to the truck driver that you are well aware that there
is insufficient space to pass in-lane, that's entirely your
perogative.
I certainly wouldn't recommend it though, and I don't know of any
recognised training scheme for cyclists that does.

Sounds like he's only saying he'd do that if the truck didn't see him
and he couldn't take the shoulder. What would you do if the truck
wasn't slowing for you? Stay there and control the lane?

AMuzi wrote:

I suppose a helmet would have protected my wrist? Data show lower
incidence of leg injuries with helmet use but I've never broken a leg so
I don't need one.

I've broken a leg and hand/finger in two separate accidents. I was
wearing a helmet both times. Imagine how many broken bones I would have
if I wasn't wearing a helmet? ;-)

Though I've always worn a helmet, I've never damaged one in an accident.
Should I stop wearing one now? No thanks. I rather think the longer
you play the game the more likely you are to loose eventually. Like
gambling, the machine wins in the long run.

JS.

On Dec 6, 11:56 am, Phil W Lee wrote:
Dan O considered Mon, 6 Dec 2010 08:22:30 -0800
(PST) the perfect time to write:



On Dec 6, 7:58 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 6, 10:36 am, Duane Hébert wrote:

What I like is the idea that when a bicycle is in front
of a truck, the cyclist is controlling the truck.

The driver is controlling the truck and hopefully he's paying attention,
he sees the cyclist and the truck doesn't have any mechanical issues..

If you want to be pedantic, when the cyclist is properly in front of
the truck in a lane too narrow for safe passing, he is controlling the
use of the lane.

Sure, but the point is your tendency to think you know what everybody
else should be doing.

So Duane, when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's
8' 6" wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?

Depends on what's ahead, first of all. Then depends on if the audible
tells me they've seen me. Then, depends on the shoulder. Then, I go
as far right as the conditions allow, brace for the crosswind, and
hang on.

If you really think you're safer trying to ride in the 18" gap left by
the truck trying to pass in the same lane than by staying wide and
demonstrating to the truck driver that you are well aware that there
is insufficient space to pass in-lane, that's entirely your
perogative.
I certainly wouldn't recommend it though, and I don't know of any
recognised training scheme for cyclists that does.

Very few truck drivers would pass a bicyclist by eighteen inches under
any cricumstances. Some do, but I'd say they are few. It's not
pleasant, but they haven't killed me yet. I imagine the type of
driver that does this sort of thing would not be inclined to treat me
better if I purposely block the road in front of him. In order to
ride at all - cognizant of what *could* happen - I have to largely
trust in the good judgement of drivers coming up from begind all the
time. I size things up so I know my options, demonstrate good faith,
then hang on.

There are a couple of bridges that I'll stay out far enough to "take
the lane" (not parade down the center, though), but even then the
opposing lane is often clear so no problem.

On Dec 6, 3:16*pm, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/6/2010 2:56 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:



Dan *considered Mon, 6 Dec 2010 08:22:30 -0800
(PST) the perfect time to write:

On Dec 6, 7:58 am, Frank *wrote:
On Dec 6, 10:36 am, Duane *wrote:

What I like is the idea that when a bicycle is in front
of a truck, the cyclist is controlling the truck.

The driver is controlling the truck and hopefully he's paying attention,
he sees the cyclist and the truck doesn't have any mechanical issues..

If you want to be pedantic, when the cyclist is properly in front of
the truck in a lane too narrow for safe passing, he is controlling the
use of the lane.

Sure, but the point is your tendency to think you know what everybody
else should be doing.

So Duane, when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's
8' 6" wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?

Depends on what's ahead, first of all. *Then depends on if the audible
tells me they've seen me. *Then, depends on the shoulder. *Then, I go
as far right as the conditions allow, brace for the crosswind, and
hang on.

If you really think you're safer trying to ride in the 18" gap left by
the truck trying to pass in the same lane than by staying wide and
demonstrating to the truck driver that you are well aware that there
is insufficient space to pass in-lane, that's entirely your
perogative.
I certainly wouldn't recommend it though, and I don't know of any
recognised training scheme for cyclists that does.

Sounds like he's only saying he'd do that if the truck didn't see him
and he couldn't take the shoulder. *What would you do if the truck
wasn't slowing for you? *Stay there and control the lane?

No shoulder, Duane. A city street with a curb at the right. Total
space available is 10 feet, no more. You can visualize a two lane or
a four lane street, I don't care.

So when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's 8' 6"
wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?

This isn't uncommon, at least in my experience.

- Frank Krygowski

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
On Dec 6, 3:16 pm, Duane Hébert wrote:

Sounds like he's only saying he'd do that if the truck didn't see him
and he couldn't take the shoulder. What would you do if the truck
wasn't slowing for you? Stay there and control the lane?

No shoulder, Duane. A city street with a curb at the right. Total
space available is 10 feet, no more. You can visualize a two lane or
a four lane street, I don't care.

So when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's 8' 6"
wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?

I would make myself as visible as possible and try to verify that
he sees me. If so, I would stay in the center of the lane. If
not, and he keeps coming I would do the same thing that Dan would
do. What would you do if he keeps coming anyway? Control
the lane? Don't bother answering.

This isn't uncommon, at least in my experience.

It's not uncommon in my experience either. What's uncommon
is for me to think that I'm taking control.

On Dec 6, 12:16 pm, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/6/2010 2:56 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:



Dan considered Mon, 6 Dec 2010 08:22:30 -0800
(PST) the perfect time to write:

On Dec 6, 7:58 am, Frank wrote:
On Dec 6, 10:36 am, Duane wrote:

What I like is the idea that when a bicycle is in front
of a truck, the cyclist is controlling the truck.

The driver is controlling the truck and hopefully he's paying attention,
he sees the cyclist and the truck doesn't have any mechanical issues..

If you want to be pedantic, when the cyclist is properly in front of
the truck in a lane too narrow for safe passing, he is controlling the
use of the lane.

Sure, but the point is your tendency to think you know what everybody
else should be doing.

So Duane, when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's
8' 6" wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?

Depends on what's ahead, first of all. Then depends on if the audible
tells me they've seen me. Then, depends on the shoulder. Then, I go
as far right as the conditions allow, brace for the crosswind, and
hang on.

If you really think you're safer trying to ride in the 18" gap left by
the truck trying to pass in the same lane than by staying wide and
demonstrating to the truck driver that you are well aware that there
is insufficient space to pass in-lane, that's entirely your
perogative.
I certainly wouldn't recommend it though, and I don't know of any
recognised training scheme for cyclists that does.

Sounds like he's only saying he'd do that if the truck didn't see him...

Then, yes, but also even when it sounds like he's seen me. It's good
faith, and is almost always returned in kind with a wide gap.

... and he couldn't take the shoulder.

Shoulder is just the edge of the alligator pit.

What would you do if the truck
wasn't slowing for you? Stay there and control the lane?

I start getting out of the way as soon as I hear any big truck coming.

On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:35:44 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Dec 6, 12:41*pm, DirtRoadie wrote:

Here lies the body of Jonathan Day
Who died maintaining his right of way,
He was right, dead right
As he sped along
But he's just as dead
As if he'd been dead wrong.

So DR, when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's
8' 6" wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?

- Frank Krygowski


Perhaps the fact that such a question is even asked is partially the
reason for many bicycle fatalities. You are imagining a situation in
which if you are wrong you may be killed and asking "what to do".

Of courser, the logical answer is "anything that allows me to live",
as anything else is simply either foolish, or evidence of some sort of
death wish. So a logical person will get out of the truck's way.

Now ask yourself the question, "is it more logical to stop your bike
and continue to live or continue on and be killed?"

Most people can get that correct the first time.

Cheers,

John D. Slocomb
(jdslocombatgmail)

On Dec 6, 1:47 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 6, 3:16 pm, Duane Hébert wrote:



On 12/6/2010 2:56 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:

Dan considered Mon, 6 Dec 2010 08:22:30 -0800
(PST) the perfect time to write:

On Dec 6, 7:58 am, Frank wrote:
On Dec 6, 10:36 am, Duane wrote:

What I like is the idea that when a bicycle is in front
of a truck, the cyclist is controlling the truck.

The driver is controlling the truck and hopefully he's paying attention,
he sees the cyclist and the truck doesn't have any mechanical issues.

If you want to be pedantic, when the cyclist is properly in front of
the truck in a lane too narrow for safe passing, he is controlling the
use of the lane.

Sure, but the point is your tendency to think you know what everybody
else should be doing.

So Duane, when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's
8' 6" wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?

Depends on what's ahead, first of all. Then depends on if the audible
tells me they've seen me. Then, depends on the shoulder. Then, I go
as far right as the conditions allow, brace for the crosswind, and
hang on.

If you really think you're safer trying to ride in the 18" gap left by
the truck trying to pass in the same lane than by staying wide and
demonstrating to the truck driver that you are well aware that there
is insufficient space to pass in-lane, that's entirely your
perogative.
I certainly wouldn't recommend it though, and I don't know of any
recognised training scheme for cyclists that does.

Sounds like he's only saying he'd do that if the truck didn't see him
and he couldn't take the shoulder. What would you do if the truck
wasn't slowing for you? Stay there and control the lane?

No shoulder, Duane. A city street with a curb at the right. Total
space available is 10 feet, no more.

No more? What is this, like an alley?

You can visualize a two lane or
a four lane street, I don't care.

Oh. Then why only ten feet, no more? Is it heavy traffic right up to
the edge of your lane? Why would I go that way in the first place?


So when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's 8' 6"
wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?


Well, okay - assuming I was idiotic or unlucky enough to find myself
in this very specific situation - I would be scoping put beyond the
curb and looking for cuts or getting ready to hop it, unless I could
just outrun him, as is often the case in town where they have curbs
and heavy traffic and all that. It's moments like this that separate
the ninjas from the fuddy-duddies :-)

This isn't uncommon, at least in my experience.

Really? Only ten feet available, no more, and a truck driver who's
going to shoot the gap if you don't direct traffic? Happens to you
all the time?

On Dec 6, 3:47*pm, Dan O wrote:
On Dec 6, 11:56 am, Phil W Lee wrote:



Dan O considered Mon, 6 Dec 2010 08:22:30 -0800
(PST) the perfect time to write:

On Dec 6, 7:58 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 6, 10:36 am, Duane Hébert wrote:

What I like is the idea that when a bicycle is in front
of a truck, the cyclist is controlling the truck.

The driver is controlling the truck and hopefully he's paying attention,
he sees the cyclist and the truck doesn't have any mechanical issues.

If you want to be pedantic, when the cyclist is properly in front of
the truck in a lane too narrow for safe passing, he is controlling the
use of the lane.

Sure, but the point is your tendency to think you know what everybody
else should be doing.

So Duane, when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's
8' 6" wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?

Depends on what's ahead, first of all. *Then depends on if the audible
tells me they've seen me. *Then, depends on the shoulder. *Then, I go
as far right as the conditions allow, brace for the crosswind, and
hang on.

If you really think you're safer trying to ride in the 18" gap left by
the truck trying to pass in the same lane than by staying wide and
demonstrating to the truck driver that you are well aware that there
is insufficient space to pass in-lane, that's entirely your
perogative.
I certainly wouldn't recommend it though, and I don't know of any
recognised training scheme for cyclists that does.

Very few truck drivers would pass a bicyclist by eighteen inches under
any cricumstances. *Some do, but I'd say they are few. *It's not
pleasant, but they haven't killed me yet. *

You need to re-do the math, Dan. If the usable lane width is ten feet
and the truck is 8.5 feet wide, he's not going to be passing you with
18" clearance. Not if he stays in the lane, anyway.

So do you _really_ skim the exact edge of the road to let him shave
your shirt off your shoulder without leaving the lane?

- Frank Krygowski

On Dec 6, 6:17*pm, "Duane Hebert" wrote:
"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message

...
On Dec 6, 3:16 pm, Duane H bert wrote:

Sounds like he's only saying he'd do that if the truck didn't see him
and he couldn't take the shoulder. What would you do if the truck
wasn't slowing for you? Stay there and control the lane?
No shoulder, Duane. *A city street with a curb at the right. *Total
space available is 10 feet, no more. *You can visualize a two lane or
a four lane street, I don't care.
So when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's 8' 6"
wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?

I would make myself as visible as possible and try to verify that
he sees me. *If so, I would stay in the center of the lane. *If
not, and he keeps coming I would do the same thing that Dan would
do. *

So you really bail out and try to jump to the sidewalk, eh? Wow. Do
you do this when he's a block back? Seems you can't delay until he's
50 feet behind, else you may not be able to bail out in time. So much
for a right to the road!

What would you do if he keeps coming anyway? *Control
the lane? *Don't bother answering.

I'll bother answering. I retain my legal right to the road. It has
always worked, for many decades now.

This isn't uncommon, at least in my experience.

It's not uncommon in my experience either. *What's uncommon
is for me to think that I'm taking control.

Well, obviously, if you're bailing out you're not controlling the
lane. Again, so much for a right to the road.

- Frank Krygowski