Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On 12/6/2010 11:04 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
In ,
Peter wrote:
[...]
A kinder, gentler, more responsive, and less mistake-prone medical
system is all very nice. What is really needed is a much less
expensive system.
Pretty much not going to happen. The best that can happen is containing
the increases in costs over time. Even just looking at the demographic
reasons for increasing health care costs over the next 50 years shows an
insoluble problem in cost reduction. Unless you plan to massacre 50% of
the baby boomers as they hit 65.

How about drafting them into occupation forces for foreign conquests?

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 12/6/2010 10:26 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
"T�m Sherm�nT " wrote in
message ...
On 12/6/2010 10:08 AM, Duane H�bert wrote:

At home I use Outlook Express for a news reader.[...]

Bill Gates holding a gun to your head?

Most of us are already paying enough for our Internet connection without the
extra expense of a newsreader.


I paid $0.00 for Mozilla Thunderbird.
http://www.mozilla.org/

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 12/6/2010 9:51 PM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 12/6/2010 7:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 6, 6:17 pm, "Duane wrote:
"Frank wrote in message

...

On Dec 6, 3:16 pm, Duane H wrote:

Sounds like he's only saying he'd do that if the truck didn't see him
and he couldn't take the shoulder. What would you do if the truck
wasn't slowing for you? Stay there and control the lane?
No shoulder, Duane. A city street with a curb at the right. Total
space available is 10 feet, no more. You can visualize a two lane or
a four lane street, I don't care.
So when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's 8' 6"
wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?

I would make myself as visible as possible and try to verify that
he sees me. If so, I would stay in the center of the lane. If
not, and he keeps coming I would do the same thing that Dan would
do.

So you really bail out and try to jump to the sidewalk, eh? Wow. Do
you do this when he's a block back? Seems you can't delay until he's
50 feet behind, else you may not be able to bail out in time. So much
for a right to the road!

What would you do if he keeps coming anyway? Control
the lane? Don't bother answering.

I'll bother answering. I retain my legal right to the road. It has
always worked, for many decades now.

This isn't uncommon, at least in my experience.

It's not uncommon in my experience either. What's uncommon
is for me to think that I'm taking control.

Well, obviously, if you're bailing out you're not controlling the
lane. Again, so much for a right to the road.

Where I have this situation, "bailing" would involve a ~25-foot drop
onto the active freeway below. I take the lane well in advance of the
shoulder disappearing on the bridge.


That's not the case in Frank's scenario. If there was no gutter,
he would be able to accuse me of cowering there.

On 12/6/2010 7:15 PM, J. D. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:35:44 -0800 (PST), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Dec 6, 12:41 pm, wrote:

Here lies the body of Jonathan Day
Who died maintaining his right of way,
He was right, dead right
As he sped along
But he's just as dead
As if he'd been dead wrong.

So DR, when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's
8' 6" wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?

- Frank Krygowski


Perhaps the fact that such a question is even asked is partially the
reason for many bicycle fatalities. You are imagining a situation in
which if you are wrong you may be killed and asking "what to do".

Of courser, the logical answer is "anything that allows me to live",
as anything else is simply either foolish, or evidence of some sort of
death wish. So a logical person will get out of the truck's way.

Now ask yourself the question, "is it more logical to stop your bike
and continue to live or continue on and be killed?"

Most people can get that correct the first time.

+1

On 12/6/2010 9:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 6, 8:32 pm, Dan wrote:
On Dec 6, 1:47 pm, Frank wrote:



On Dec 6, 3:16 pm, Duane wrote:

On 12/6/2010 2:56 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:

Dan considered Mon, 6 Dec 2010 08:22:30 -0800
(PST) the perfect time to write:

On Dec 6, 7:58 am, Frank wrote:
On Dec 6, 10:36 am, Duane wrote:

What I like is the idea that when a bicycle is in front
of a truck, the cyclist is controlling the truck.

The driver is controlling the truck and hopefully he's paying attention,
he sees the cyclist and the truck doesn't have any mechanical issues.

If you want to be pedantic, when the cyclist is properly in front of
the truck in a lane too narrow for safe passing, he is controlling the
use of the lane.

Sure, but the point is your tendency to think you know what everybody
else should be doing.

So Duane, when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's
8' 6" wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?

Depends on what's ahead, first of all. Then depends on if the audible
tells me they've seen me. Then, depends on the shoulder. Then, I go
as far right as the conditions allow, brace for the crosswind, and
hang on.

If you really think you're safer trying to ride in the 18" gap left by
the truck trying to pass in the same lane than by staying wide and
demonstrating to the truck driver that you are well aware that there
is insufficient space to pass in-lane, that's entirely your
perogative.
I certainly wouldn't recommend it though, and I don't know of any
recognised training scheme for cyclists that does.

Sounds like he's only saying he'd do that if the truck didn't see him
and he couldn't take the shoulder. What would you do if the truck
wasn't slowing for you? Stay there and control the lane?

No shoulder, Duane. A city street with a curb at the right. Total
space available is 10 feet, no more.

No more? What is this, like an alley?

You can visualize a two lane or
a four lane street, I don't care.

Oh. Then why only ten feet, no more? Is it heavy traffic right up to
the edge of your lane? Why would I go that way in the first place?



So when you're bicycling in a 10 foot lane with a truck that's 8' 6"
wide coming up behind you, what exactly do you do?

Well, okay - assuming I was idiotic or unlucky enough to find myself
in this very specific situation - I would be scoping put beyond the
curb and looking for cuts or getting ready to hop it, unless I could
just outrun him, as is often the case in town where they have curbs
and heavy traffic and all that. It's moments like this that separate
the ninjas from the fuddy-duddies :-)

This isn't uncommon, at least in my experience.

Really? Only ten feet available, no more, and a truck driver who's
going to shoot the gap if you don't direct traffic? Happens to you
all the time?

On my commute to and from work, I'd say all of the final mile is
exactly like that. There are many stretches on the other six miles
that are like that as well. My residential street, although it has no
curbs, is even narrower, totaling 18 feet IIRC.

Of course, there aren't _always_ trucks waiting to pass me. There are
frequently cars, though, and it makes little difference; a ten foot
lane is far too narrow to be safely shared.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adTpGj2MFec

The truck in this case slowed appreciably when coming up
to the cyclist (whether for the cyclist or for the turn
doesn't really matter) so where's the example where one
didn't? How about an example of a truck tailgaiting the
cyclist? What about one of a van between the cyclist and
the truck, blocking the truck's view of the cyclist, who
then turns as the truck is accelerating? I could go on.
Showing a video of one instance that exactly matches your
point doesn't prove that it's the normal thing for everyone,
everywhere.

I really am amazed to find so much fear in this group.

You confuse caution and fear.

On 12/6/2010 9:43 PM, James wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

Of course, there aren't _always_ trucks waiting to pass me. There are
frequently cars, though, and it makes little difference; a ten foot
lane is far too narrow to be safely shared.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adTpGj2MFec

I really am amazed to find so much fear in this group.

- Frank Krygowski

You and Tom Sherman will like this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GNEU5cil_E&NR=1

Good thing he wasn't in a bike lane. He'd be dead.

On 12/6/2010 10:05 PM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 12/6/2010 8:43 PM, James Steward wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

Of course, there aren't _always_ trucks waiting to pass me. There are
frequently cars, though, and it makes little difference; a ten foot
lane is far too narrow to be safely shared.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adTpGj2MFec

I really am amazed to find so much fear in this group.

- Frank Krygowski

You and Tom Sherman will like this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GNEU5cil_E&NR=1


I would have been tempted to ram the car with my large chain ring.

I would have followed them into the drive and gave them some
grief.

On 12/6/2010 9:57 PM, James wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adTpGj2MFec

I really am amazed to find so much fear in this group.

- Frank Krygowski

This is fun..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALn2KXD852Y&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiz6U...eature=related

Pretty normal stuff.

I assume it's illegal to overtake over double lines? At about 4 minutes
and 4 seconds is a good bit too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF2eLT0VRVA&NR=1

In Quebec, cars must maintain 1.5 meters from a bicycle. They can
cross double yellow to pass as long as it's to maintain the
distance from a bike. Of course, if the bike is in the center of the
lane they can't pass. This tends to **** off some drivers.

On 12/6/2010 9:21 PM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 12/6/2010 10:08 AM, Duane Hébert wrote:

At home I use Outlook Express for a news reader.[...]

Bill Gates holding a gun to your head?


Huh?

On 12/6/2010 11:26 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
"Tºm ShermªnT " wrote in
message ...
On 12/6/2010 10:08 AM, Duane Hébert wrote:

At home I use Outlook Express for a news reader.[...]

Bill Gates holding a gun to your head?

Most of us are already paying enough for our Internet connection without the
extra expense of a newsreader.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota



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