Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009

On Dec 7, 11:19*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 7, 11:42*am, DirtRoadie
articulated a well reasoned response
to nonsensical questions

*Let's get back to the point:

So DR, what _do_ you do in that situation? *10 foot lane, 8.5 foot
truck. *Curb, no shoulder. *Do you suddenly bail to ride the sidewalk,
or do you bump along in the gutter, or do you control the lane?

- Frank "Master of Rhetorical Masturbation" Krygowski

Frank, I answered your question. Sorry it's over your head. You may
wish to note that I am not a virtual character in your little virtual
world where everything is black and white and you lie in order to make
all the pieces fit. If you need a straw man to argue against I'm sure
your pal Fred is available, although I heard he gave up cycling. It
seems some ignorant and misguided ****tard scared him away by telling
him group riding was much too dangerous.

This idiot told him he wasn't ready and emphasized the danger.

Apparently Fred was told in no uncertain terms that he could not "risk
it" because: "Both riders have to be experts. See, if the front rider
slows down just a bit, his tire can hit the tire of the guy behind.
And if it just touches, the guy behind goes down!"

It's understandable that "fear mongering" instruction like that would
dampens anyone's enthusiasm.

But on a more positive note, I also heard that Fred got a job driving
an 8-1/2 foot wide truck. So YOU can take some consolation in the fact
that there is at least one driver out there that you will be able to
control at will.

DR

On Dec 7, 11:08*am, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/7/2010 1:54 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:





On Dec 7, 12:55 pm, Duane *wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Dec 7, 9:19 am, Duane H * *wrote:
On 12/6/2010 9:57 PM, James wrote:

I assume it's illegal to overtake over double lines?

In Quebec, cars must maintain 1.5 meters from a bicycle. *They can
cross double yellow to pass as long as it's to maintain the
distance from a bike.

A couple years ago in Ohio, we got it specifically written into law
that motorists can cross those lines, when safe, to pass any vehicle
traveling less than half the speed limit. *Really, it was just
codifying what most motorists - including cops, in my experience -
already do.

Here, motorists can only cross those lines legally to pass a bicycle.
Unfortunately, most motorists don't know this. Neither do most cyclists.

Right. *Again, education is important. *And since most drivers (and
cyclists) will never voluntarily seek their own education, I think we
need to do it through the media.

Some of us in Ohio are currently working on a new preface for the Ohio
version of "Street Smarts." *Among other things, it will cover that
new passing law.

Education is always good but there is a push here to get a couple of
questions on the driver test. Seems like something mandatory has to be done.





Of course, if the bike is in the center of the lane they can't pass.

They can pass in the same way they'd pass an Amish buggy, a post
office truck stopping at roadside mailboxes, a street sweeper, a heavy
truck grinding slowly up a steep hill, and so on. *Pass when it's
clear. *Wait if it's not.

They can't pass any of these vehicles when there are double yellow
lines. *So for the cyclists, they can pass still ONLY if they leave
the 1.5 meters. *So the size of the lanes and the cyclists position may
prevent them from passing. *So, either they pass illegally, probably
buzzing the cyclist or they will wait until they can pass. *They don't
always wait patiently.

In my experience, most drivers' lane choice is sort of binary. *Most
either stay entirely in one lane, or cross entirely into the next.
When I take lane center in a narrow lane and the next lane becomes
clear for passing, very few pass with minimal clearance. *If it did
happen, at least I'd have escape room to my right. *That wouldn't be
true if I went far right trying to let them squeeze past.

Not my experience though. *Whether they pass too close or not usually
depends on the driver and their level of tolerance and has very little
to do with my relative position. *Though I've had times when they
buzzed me precisely because I was in the center and they had to
wait longer to pass me. *Or at least thought that they did.

Someone else here posted that moving a bit
to the right gives the impression that you're being polite and the
drivers ofter reciprocate. *Please no skulking in the ditch replies.- Hide quoted text -

There are clear rules that say where everyone should be, at least here
in Oregon. Bikes have to be as far right as is "practicable."
Vehicles must pass at a safe distance, which is defined by statute and
based on the fall-arc of the bike. Vehicles may cross a solid center
line to pass an "obstacle." And, finally, slow moving vehilces must
yield. You put all this together, and you get a bicyclist riding as
far right as is safe and not impeding traffic, and you get cars
crossing the center line to go around -- which most do. In fact, cars
frequently cross the center line to pass me when I am riding on the
shoulder -- on HWY 101 on the coast for example. Very odd. It's like
a 12 foot passing distance.


Now, there are weird bottle-necks and short portions of narrow roadway
around here where cars may pass too close (usually busses), and I will
ride a little farther out so there is less temptation to lane share
and pass closely. I don't get in the middle, though. I don't need to
to achieve the desired effect -- unless the desired effect is
asserting my dominance and shutting down traffic. -- Jay Beattie.

On Dec 7, 12:15Â*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 7, 1:05Â*pm, Dan O wrote:

On Dec 7, 8:57 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Wait! Â*You said you would do what Dan does. Â*Dan said he'd jump to the
sidewalk. Â*Did you mean something different? Â*Make yourself clear!

Knock it off, man. Â*I didn't say that.

??

You said "Well, okay - assuming I was idiotic or unlucky enough to
find myself
in this very specific situation - I would be scoping put [sic] beyond
the curb and looking for cuts or getting ready to hop it, unless I
could just outrun him..."

Since you've talked so much about riding sidewalks before, I assumed
you were hopping the curb at a curb cut to get to the sidewalk. Â*And
on our city streets, when you hop the curb, you're on the sidewalk.

So what did you mean by that, if not riding on the sidewalk?

- Frank Krygowski

Frank From this I can only conclude that we have been very hard on
you, not taking into account that English is not your first language.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...rm=scope%20out

In very simple terms "scoping out" is not "riding."
As I previously noted to you, Dan described remaining observant enough
to keep his options open.

A u was Murzynów biją

DR

On Dec 7, 12:18*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 7, 1:06*pm, Duane Hébert wrote:

On 12/7/2010 12:47 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Try some education. *Try reading _Cyclecraft_ by John Franklin. *Read
his sections on Primary and Secondary road positions. *He gets it
right. (He's now got editions out for drive-on-left Britain and for
drive-on-right North America.)

Try reading some links about defensive driving.

Can we make a deal? *I'll do the latter if you'll do the former.

(Of course, I've already done the former, but I'm willing to do it
again if it will get people to read Franklin's book.)

Yeah, but its not the reading that is at issue its the understanding
and/or accuracy of interpretation.
DR

"Tad McClellan" wrote in message
...
["Followup-To:" header set to rec.bicycles.tech.]
Edward Dolan wrote:
I just realized I will not see a response to this post unless I make sure
it
comes to RBS. I do not monitor RBT.

It has become obvious to me that you are not a "technology person".

I can't figure out why I am getting this message since I am only monitoring
RBS and you only posted to RBT? What a mystery!

Do any of us amount to much in the way of technology? I am reminded of the
line from "The Caine Mutiny" about how naval ships are designed by geniuses
to be run by idiots. I think most of us are idiots when it comes to anything
technical if you want to be brutally honest about it. Of course Tom Sherman
is the exception. He knows technology, but not much else.
[...]

I think a lot of folks have ISPs which do not provide free newsreaders.


ISPs *never* provide newsreaders, neither pay-for nor free!

Usenet is a "client-server architecture":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Client%...93server_model

Newsreaders are clients, they run on your local computer.

News *feeds* are servers, they run on your ISP's computers.

Yes, apparently that is what I am getting from my ISP. My Windows Mail uses
this news "feed" then? What a genius Bill Gates was to figure all of this
out since Windows Mail is also used for every day email!

I
used to use Outlook Express and now I use Windows Mail.


Your ISP provided those?

I don't think so.

No, Windows Vista OS provides Windows Mail. What a genius Bill Gates was to
figure all of this out!

It is convenient to
use them and they work well enough as far as I can tell.

A purpose-built tool is always better than a jack-of-all-trades tool.

I wonder if that is always true? Many times a simple tool is better than a
more complex tool because it is easier to understand and use.

I am pretty sure
Mr. Sherman is paying for his newsreader.


You are wrong.

It is easy enough to determine that youself by examining the
headers of his posts.

He uses Thunderbird. Thunderbird is free software.

Does not Mr. Sherman's ISP give him a news feed? If so, why not use Windows
Mail? I do not see the point of using a web based newsreader if your OS is
already giving you one.

What is a good free newsreader just in case I need one someday?


I never use Windows, so I don't know, but it is easy to find out:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=free+windows+newsreaders

Thanks, I will have a look at that link one of these days if I ever feel
Windows Mail is not up to the job.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

On 12/7/2010 2:38 PM, DirtRoadie wrote:
On Dec 7, 11:19 am, Frank wrote:
On Dec 7, 11:42 am,
articulated a well reasoned response
to nonsensical questions

Let's get back to the point:

So DR, what _do_ you do in that situation? 10 foot lane, 8.5 foot
truck. Curb, no shoulder. Do you suddenly bail to ride the sidewalk,
or do you bump along in the gutter, or do you control the lane?

- Frank "Master of Rhetorical Masturbation" Krygowski

Frank, I answered your question. Sorry it's over your head. You may
wish to note that I am not a virtual character in your little virtual
world where everything is black and white and you lie in order to make
all the pieces fit. If you need a straw man to argue against I'm sure
your pal Fred is available, although I heard he gave up cycling. It
seems some ignorant and misguided ****tard scared him away by telling
him group riding was much too dangerous.

This idiot told him he wasn't ready and emphasized the danger.

Apparently Fred was told in no uncertain terms that he could not "risk
it" because: "Both riders have to be experts. See, if the front rider
slows down just a bit, his tire can hit the tire of the guy behind.
And if it just touches, the guy behind goes down!"

It's understandable that "fear mongering" instruction like that would
dampens anyone's enthusiasm.

But on a more positive note, I also heard that Fred got a job driving
an 8-1/2 foot wide truck. So YOU can take some consolation in the fact
that there is at least one driver out there that you will be able to
control at will.

Now my boss is ****ed at me. She's asking how my dissociation algorithm
can cause such humor. Something about the coffee coming out
of my nose. LOL.

On 12/7/2010 2:45 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Dec 7, 11:08 am, Duane wrote:
On 12/7/2010 1:54 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:





On Dec 7, 12:55 pm, Duane wrote:
On 12/7/2010 12:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Dec 7, 9:19 am, Duane H wrote:
On 12/6/2010 9:57 PM, James wrote:

I assume it's illegal to overtake over double lines?

In Quebec, cars must maintain 1.5 meters from a bicycle. They can
cross double yellow to pass as long as it's to maintain the
distance from a bike.

A couple years ago in Ohio, we got it specifically written into law
that motorists can cross those lines, when safe, to pass any vehicle
traveling less than half the speed limit. Really, it was just
codifying what most motorists - including cops, in my experience -
already do.

Here, motorists can only cross those lines legally to pass a bicycle.
Unfortunately, most motorists don't know this. Neither do most cyclists.

Right. Again, education is important. And since most drivers (and
cyclists) will never voluntarily seek their own education, I think we
need to do it through the media.

Some of us in Ohio are currently working on a new preface for the Ohio
version of "Street Smarts." Among other things, it will cover that
new passing law.

Education is always good but there is a push here to get a couple of
questions on the driver test. Seems like something mandatory has to be done.





Of course, if the bike is in the center of the lane they can't pass.

They can pass in the same way they'd pass an Amish buggy, a post
office truck stopping at roadside mailboxes, a street sweeper, a heavy
truck grinding slowly up a steep hill, and so on. Pass when it's
clear. Wait if it's not.

They can't pass any of these vehicles when there are double yellow
lines. So for the cyclists, they can pass still ONLY if they leave
the 1.5 meters. So the size of the lanes and the cyclists position may
prevent them from passing. So, either they pass illegally, probably
buzzing the cyclist or they will wait until they can pass. They don't
always wait patiently.

In my experience, most drivers' lane choice is sort of binary. Most
either stay entirely in one lane, or cross entirely into the next.
When I take lane center in a narrow lane and the next lane becomes
clear for passing, very few pass with minimal clearance. If it did
happen, at least I'd have escape room to my right. That wouldn't be
true if I went far right trying to let them squeeze past.

Not my experience though. Whether they pass too close or not usually
depends on the driver and their level of tolerance and has very little
to do with my relative position. Though I've had times when they
buzzed me precisely because I was in the center and they had to
wait longer to pass me. Or at least thought that they did.

Someone else here posted that moving a bit
to the right gives the impression that you're being polite and the
drivers ofter reciprocate. Please no skulking in the ditch replies.- Hide quoted text -

There are clear rules that say where everyone should be, at least here
in Oregon. Bikes have to be as far right as is "practicable."
Vehicles must pass at a safe distance, which is defined by statute and
based on the fall-arc of the bike. Vehicles may cross a solid center
line to pass an "obstacle." And, finally, slow moving vehilces must
yield. You put all this together, and you get a bicyclist riding as
far right as is safe and not impeding traffic, and you get cars
crossing the center line to go around -- which most do. In fact, cars
frequently cross the center line to pass me when I am riding on the
shoulder -- on HWY 101 on the coast for example. Very odd. It's like
a 12 foot passing distance.


It's pretty much the same here concerning slower traffic being
required to yield right of way though I can't find anything
specific in the Quebec Highway code about keeping to the right.
We are required to use a bike lane when one exists and allow passing
distance to the left whenever possible, whatever that means.


Now, there are weird bottle-necks and short portions of narrow roadway
around here where cars may pass too close (usually busses), and I will
ride a little farther out so there is less temptation to lane share
and pass closely. I don't get in the middle, though. I don't need to
to achieve the desired effect -- unless the desired effect is
asserting my dominance and shutting down traffic. -- Jay Beattie.

+1

["Followup-To:" header set to rec.bicycles.tech.]
Edward Dolan wrote:
"Tad McClellan" wrote in message
...
["Followup-To:" header set to rec.bicycles.tech.]
Edward Dolan wrote:
I just realized I will not see a response to this post unless I make sure
it
comes to RBS. I do not monitor RBT.

It has become obvious to me that you are not a "technology person".

I can't figure out why I am getting this message since I am only monitoring
RBS and you only posted to RBT? What a mystery!


I did not post only to RBT.

What makes you think that I did?

Do you even know how to examine the headers of a Usenet post?

My followup to you has this as one of the header lines:

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.soc

So it was posted to both newsgroups.


News *feeds* are servers, they run on your ISP's computers.

Yes, apparently that is what I am getting from my ISP. My Windows Mail uses
this news "feed" then?


All of Usenet uses the Network News Transfer Protocol (NNTP).

(the "P" at the end of nearly every computer acronym that ends in
a "P" stands for "Protocol", as in the HyperText Transfer Protocol
(HTTP) and Simple Mail Transfer Protocol (SMTP) which run the
WWW and email, respectively.
)


What a genius Bill Gates was to figure all of this
out


Oh cut it out.

rec.humor.funny is over that way ===


since Windows Mail is also used for every day email!


All it takes is understanding the relevant specs.

There is no genius there.


A purpose-built tool is always better than a jack-of-all-trades tool.

I wonder if that is always true? Many times a simple tool is better than a
more complex tool because it is easier to understand and use.


Good, so we are in agreement there at least.


Does not Mr. Sherman's ISP give him a news feed?


I dunno, but he is surely connecting to an NNTP server somewhere.


If so, why not use Windows
Mail?


Because it sucks (I'm guessing).

It is a jack-of-all-trades tool.


I do not see the point of using a web based newsreader if your OS is
already giving you one.


Who suggested using a web based newsreader?

Neither I nor Tom Sherman did that I can see...


--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.liamg\100cm.j.dat/"
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.

On Dec 7, 6:12 am, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/6/2010 10:05 PM, T m Sherm n _ wrote:



On 12/6/2010 8:43 PM, James Steward wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

Of course, there aren't _always_ trucks waiting to pass me. There are
frequently cars, though, and it makes little difference; a ten foot
lane is far too narrow to be safely shared.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adTpGj2MFec

I really am amazed to find so much fear in this group.

- Frank Krygowski

You and Tom Sherman will like this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GNEU5cil_E&NR=1

I would have been tempted to ram the car with my large chain ring.

I would have followed them into the drive and gave them some
grief.


It never ceases to amaze me the way a cager will give you the
business... then show you where they (try to ;-) sleep at night.

One dark morning out in the middle of nowhere, I was kind of buzzed by
a big truck at high speed on a two-lane road with nobody else for
miles around. A few miles later I saw him getting fuel in town. I
rode up a little hot under the collar, but explained to him that I was
just another guy trying to make it to work and then back home safe to
his family. From then on, he always gave me room - and sometimes a
friendly honk.

There are a few truck drivers who exhibit clear disdain for me and my
bike, but so far none have been homicidal about it. If one ever is,
it ain't gonna matter what line I pick.

DirtRoadie wrote:
On Dec 7, 9:53 am, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/7/2010 11:42 AM, DirtRoadie wrote:

Duane, shame on you! Were you mocking Frank? Frank is an "expert,"
just ask him. He can control everything.
Apparently everything except disagreement. Sorry, I mean
mocking. What's this a Monty Python schtick?

I think Frank is trying to bolster his "straw" resume so he can seek
gainful employment in both "argument" AND "abuse." He's tired of
arguing in his spare time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

Soon he will progress to being hit on the head lessons, and after being
caught by the fair cop, wear a helmet! Victory is in sight...

JS.