Seoul Cycle Design Competition Winner

DougC schreef:
To say that "recumbents are slow" just because the only one or two
you've seen were going slow is rather jumping to conclusions.

Lou Holtman wrote:
as 'Sitting on an upright bicycle saddle is just plain
uncomfortable' is.

DougC wrote:
If upright bicycle saddles are comfortable, then why isn't the same seat
design used on anything else?


Comfortable saddles are used on just everything! I have the
same Cinelli #5 saddle on my three speed, on my winter fixie
and on my pink Bianchi Aquiletta folder. Never a more
comfortable* saddle. I have the same-shape original Turbo on
my road bike.

*Many others are similarly suitable, just not beyond perfect.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 11/25/2010 11:39 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 25-11-2010 8:47, DougC schreef:
On 11/25/2010 12:24 AM, MikeWhy wrote:

...

Just this year, I saw: A guy in the early summer heat struggle to ride a
fully faired recumbent. His grimace of discomfort equalled all the grim,
determined road-bound stares of all the roadies I saw the next 5 months.
There was also the overweight middle-aged couple, on apparently brand
new recumbent trikes, strategizing how to overcome the 20 foot 5% climb
up and over the bridge on the bike path. Simply pedaling wasn't an
option. She was parked off the side of the trail still in the shade of
the trees. He was halfway up the incline, also stopped off the trail and
panting heavily. I didn't stop to offer advice or help, but gave
encouragement by way of example. I nodded and waved greetings as I
pedaled past. (I didn't set out to bash 'bents, but they're obviously
the bow to efficiency for the uninformed and inexperienced. )



The thing about recumbents is that you get a much wider variety of
fitness levels of people who you see riding them, since just sitting on
them doesn't hurt. Sitting on an upright bicycle saddle is just plain
uncomfortable, and it is even more uncomfortable for someone overweight.
That couple would have likely never tried to ride "normal" bikes.

To say that "recumbents are slow" just because the only one or two
you've seen were going slow is rather jumping to conclusions.


as 'Sitting on an upright bicycle saddle is just plain
uncomfortable' is.


Most regular upright road bike riders who do not ride much in harsh
winters complain of having to re-adjust to sitting on a saddle when they
start riding again in the spring. For a new, out of shape, and
overweight rider, a regular saddle can be a torture device that turns
them off from cycling completely.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 11/25/2010 1:47 PM, A. Muzi wrote:
DougC schreef:
To say that "recumbents are slow" just because the only one or two
you've seen were going slow is rather jumping to conclusions.

Lou Holtman wrote:
as 'Sitting on an upright bicycle saddle is just plain
uncomfortable' is.

DougC wrote:
If upright bicycle saddles are comfortable, then why isn't the same
seat design used on anything else?


Comfortable saddles are used on just everything! I have the same Cinelli
#5 saddle on my three speed, on my winter fixie and on my pink Bianchi
Aquiletta folder. Never a more comfortable* saddle. I have the
same-shape original Turbo on my road bike.

*Many others are similarly suitable, just not beyond perfect.


But your Nova and Corvair have seats much more similar to those on a
recumbent bicycle than an upright saddle.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 11/25/2010 11:34 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 25-11-2010 7:45, "Tºm Shermªn™ °_° --" schreef:
On 11/25/2010 12:24 AM, MikeWhoWhatWhenWhereWhyHow? wrote:
Just this year, I saw: A guy in the early summer heat struggle to ride a
fully faired recumbent. His grimace of discomfort equalled all the grim,
determined road-bound stares of all the roadies I saw the next 5 months.
There was also the overweight middle-aged couple, on apparently brand
new recumbent trikes, strategizing how to overcome the 20 foot 5% climb
up and over the bridge on the bike path. Simply pedaling wasn't an
option. She was parked off the side of the trail still in the shade of
the trees. He was halfway up the incline, also stopped off the trail and
panting heavily. I didn't stop to offer advice or help, but gave
encouragement by way of example. I nodded and waved greetings as I
pedaled past. (I didn't set out to bash 'bents, but they're obviously
the bow to efficiency for the uninformed and inexperienced. )

Those riders would have been just as slow on road bikes, except in much
greater discomfort (yes, a drop-bar road bike is a horrible choice for
the older, new, and out of shape rider). As for the efficiency of
'bents, check out the recent RAAM results - enough said.

For a new out of shape rider, something like this would be the better
choice than a traditional position upright:
http://www.ransbikes.com/Fusion10.htm.



Looks uncomfortable to me.

Lou

Ah, judgment without experience.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

""Tºm Shermªn™ °_° --"" wrote in
message ...
On 11/25/2010 1:47 PM, A. Muzi wrote:
DougC schreef:
To say that "recumbents are slow" just because the only one or two
you've seen were going slow is rather jumping to conclusions.

Lou Holtman wrote:
as 'Sitting on an upright bicycle saddle is just plain
uncomfortable' is.

DougC wrote:
If upright bicycle saddles are comfortable, then why isn't the same
seat design used on anything else?


Comfortable saddles are used on just everything! I have the same Cinelli
#5 saddle on my three speed, on my winter fixie and on my pink Bianchi
Aquiletta folder. Never a more comfortable* saddle. I have the
same-shape original Turbo on my road bike.

*Many others are similarly suitable, just not beyond perfect.


But your Nova and Corvair have seats much more similar to those on a
recumbent bicycle than an upright saddle.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

But my Subaru doesn't require me to move my legs up and down for propulsion.
Kerry

On Nov 25, 4:11*pm, Peter Cole wrote:
On 11/25/2010 1:24 AM, MikeWhy wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:
...
The biggest things holding back the bicycle from becoming everyday
transport for almost everyone are, in order of deleterious effect:

1. An American sense of entitlement spelt S-U-V transmitted by
Hollywood across the world as an aspiration.

The inhuman scale of commute distances in America relegates bicycles to
leisure, not transportation.

From: Making Walking and Cycling Safer: Lessons from Europe, John Pucher
and Lewis Dijkstra

"The average density of European cities is triple that of American
cities; conversely, average trip lengths in European cities are roughly
half as long 3. Since walking and bicycling become less feasible as trip
distance increases, the longer trips in American cities and
suburbs obviously discourage non-motorized modes. Nevertheless, even in
the sprawled metropolitan areas of the United States, 49% of all trips
are shorter than 3 miles, 40% are shorter than 2 miles, and 28% are
shorter than one mile. Bicycling can easily cover all these distances,
and most people can walk up to a mile. Thus, the extraordinarily low
level of walking and cycling in the U.S. cannot be attributed solely to
long trip distances."

Thanks, Peter. I was trying to remember where I saw that. -- Andre Jute

On Nov 25, 7:28*pm, DougC wrote:

If upright bicycle saddles are comfortable, then why isn't the same seat
design used on anything else?

The reason is that Kaiser Wilhelm of Germany, a cripple with the
additional disability of suffering Duck's Disease, regretting that he
wasn't suited to military life, would pretend at his desk to be a
cavalryman by sitting on a saddle. Educated and cultured people know
this, and try not to be associated with the little warmonger by
sitting on saddles anywhere but on a horse or a bicyce. Hope this
helps.

Andre Jute
Sitting on an ergonomic chair of my own design

On 11/25/2010 1:32 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 25-11-2010 20:28, DougC schreef:
On 11/25/2010 11:39 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 25-11-2010 8:47, DougC schreef:

To say that "recumbents are slow" just because the only one or two
you've seen were going slow is rather jumping to conclusions.


as 'Sitting on an upright bicycle saddle is just plain
uncomfortable' is.

Lou

If upright bicycle saddles are comfortable, then why isn't the same seat
design used on anything else?
~


Define anything else.

Lou

Let's limit it to "Any other motorized or human-propelled vehicle in
common use past or present, or any piece of furniture commonly sold in
any era in history".
~

In article ,
"MikeWhy" wrote:

DougC wrote:
On 11/25/2010 12:24 AM, MikeWhy wrote:

...

Just this year, I saw: A guy in the early summer heat struggle to
ride a fully faired recumbent. His grimace of discomfort equalled
all the grim, determined road-bound stares of all the roadies I saw
the next 5 months. There was also the overweight middle-aged couple,
on apparently brand new recumbent trikes, strategizing how to
overcome the 20 foot 5% climb up and over the bridge on the bike
path. Simply pedaling wasn't an option. She was parked off the side
of the trail still in the shade of the trees. He was halfway up the
incline, also stopped off the trail and panting heavily. I didn't
stop to offer advice or help, but gave encouragement by way of
example. I nodded and waved greetings as I pedaled past. (I didn't
set out to bash 'bents, but they're obviously the bow to efficiency
for the uninformed and inexperienced. )

The thing about recumbents is that you get a much wider variety of
fitness levels of people who you see riding them, since just sitting
on them doesn't hurt. Sitting on an upright bicycle saddle is just
plain uncomfortable, and it is even more uncomfortable for someone
overweight. That couple would have likely never tried to ride
"normal" bikes.
To say that "recumbents are slow" just because the only one or two
you've seen were going slow is rather jumping to conclusions.

Let's just say I'm very curious about them, never having been on one.
Ergonomics aside, and I do have my doubts, I was addressing Andre's
anti-efficiency rant. The characteristic that seems to define them is the
superior aerodynamics, which presumably makes up for their ills. Or maybe
not, since I see so few of them.

The aerodynamic drag of a bicycle does not matter
in most situations; almost not at all for utility
bicycles. Got a head wind? Go slower. Big deal.
I am slowed more by the very slight grades around
here than by wind.

--
Michael Press

Op 26-11-2010 6:29, DougC schreef:
On 11/25/2010 1:32 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 25-11-2010 20:28, DougC schreef:
On 11/25/2010 11:39 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 25-11-2010 8:47, DougC schreef:

To say that "recumbents are slow" just because the only one or two
you've seen were going slow is rather jumping to conclusions.


as 'Sitting on an upright bicycle saddle is just plain
uncomfortable' is.

Lou

If upright bicycle saddles are comfortable, then why isn't the same seat
design used on anything else?
~


Define anything else.

Lou

Let's limit it to "Any other motorized or human-propelled vehicle in
common use past or present, or any piece of furniture commonly sold in
any era in history".
~


There are a lot of car seats, (desk)chairs, horse saddles that are very
uncomfortable for me when I have to sit on them for hours and guess what
my bikesaddles are one of the most comfortable seats for me if I have to
spend hours on them. I'm not denying that there are people with serious
issues with bicycle saddles but the vast majority are perfectly OK with
them. So calling them generally uncomfortable is a wrong statement IMO.

Lou