Why we should bike w/o a helmet--from the TED conference

On 12/23/2010 2:44 PM, DirtRoadie wrote:
On Dec 23, 8:46 am, Duane wrote:
On 12/23/2010 10:36 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Dec 22, 9:15 pm, Frank wrote:
On Dec 22, 7:55 pm, Jay wrote:

Mount Hood Meadows has been open for a month and a half!
Unbelievable, light snow for the Cascades this year. This is why I
make my son wear a helmet:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWv-EX6bgw0
He's big in to Fright Trees. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwWqnQj_ozw

You might want to explain to your son that ski helmets, like bike
helmets, are tested and certified only for less than 14 mph impacts.
Watch out for that "I've got a helmet, I'm bulletproof" risk
compensation.

BTW, I was a little hasty saying that I make him wear a helmet,
because I don't generally. He wears his free-ski helmet as a fashion
statement, and he wears his racing helmet as a requirement. In
general, and assuming he is not in the trees or the park, I don't care
whether he wears a helmet because I question the necessity or
effectiveness in soft snow impacts -- and the effect of added moment
to the head. If it is really icy, I might re-think that.

As for risk compensation, he might think twice about skiing tight
trees with no helmet -- but he is a smart kid and does not get in over
is head, helmet or not. At his level, however, there is very little
terrain that is over his head. -- Jay Beattie.

The snow board classes that my son takes require helmets.
For him to work as an instructor, he's required to wear a helmet.
He's grown up snow boarding with a helmet. He's grown up cycling
with one as well. Doesn't occur to him not to wear one, Frank's
mantra of Danger! Danger! notwithstanding.

I don't ski with a helmet but I find snow relatively soft to
fall on. I don't ski in the woods much -at least not intentionally.
Snowboarders do ski in the woods though as well as in snow parks with
slides, rails and jumps. Helmets are required in the snow parks but not
on slopes in general here. There's some movement to make them
mandatory after that actress died in Tremblant on the bunny run but I
doubt it will get anywhere.

I have fully been expecting any helmet thread to turn to ski helmets,
especially since there is probably a much better compilation of data
about ski injuries than there is about bike injuries. This would be
the result of nearly any significant ski injury at a lift serviced
area being documented by the attending ski patrol.

When Frank sees the word helmet, he is moved to action.
He had to tell Jay how to educate his son because ski helmets
are only tested at 14 mph impact. The same BS misrepresentation
as with bike helmets but I digress.

From my own observations I will note that a very high percentage of
fatalities at ski areas are the result of head injuries, although head
injuries may be a small percentage of all injuries. And these
fatalities regularly fit a common pattern of being lower level skiers
on "bunny" slopes. The reason being that it is relatively easy for
even a poorly skilled skier to remain upright, but with little
control, while gaining a fair amount of speed. Then if they run off
the side of the slope and into a tree - the result can be head injury
and death. Sonny Bono is just one classic example. In comparison if
the slope is steeper and/or bumpy the skier is more likely to simply
fall prior to gaining much speed or going into the trees. A simple
fall on an open slope, by itself, is common (at least among the entire
population of skiers) and does not necessarily result in injury. And
if there is an injury it is more likely a leg injury. These days knee
damage (especially ACL) is probably more common than a broken bone.

The danger with skiing is pretty much relative to the terrain and your
ability.

I've fallen a lot more skiing than cycling, for example,
but had more serious injuries from the cycling fall. Tarmac is
usually harder than snow. I haven't gone into the trees since my first
day skiing though. But then again I don't do double diamonds much
either.

As to helmet use, I don't know. I don't wear one. My son does but
he's a snow boarder. His friends that ski wear them also. It's just
what kids here do now. When we went to buy his first equipment, the
helmet was part of it. I don't find the lift lines any shorter because
of it.

As for helmets and snow boarding, they ride in the snow parks a lot
and there are the obstacles like the rails:

http://tinyurl.com/23re77r

so whether or not the helmet is tested for 14 mph and whether or not
they are going 14 mph at impact (the problem with that argument), it's
likely to help when they crack their head on the rails.

Per DirtRoadie:
although head
injuries may be a small percentage of all injuries. And these
fatalities regularly fit a common pattern of being lower level skiers
on "bunny" slopes.

IIRC, that is what happened with Natasha Richardson (who was
married to Liam Neeson).
--
PeteCresswell

On 12/23/2010 3:13 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per DirtRoadie:
although head
injuries may be a small percentage of all injuries. And these
fatalities regularly fit a common pattern of being lower level skiers
on "bunny" slopes.

IIRC, that is what happened with Natasha Richardson (who was
married to Liam Neeson).

Yes, that happened on Mont Tremblant in Quebec. But hers was really
weird as she fell on a wide and open beginner trail with a private
instructor next to her, just basically slipped.

Real tragedy though.

On Dec 23, 1:13*pm, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:
Per DirtRoadie:

although head
injuries may be a small percentage of all injuries. And these
fatalities *regularly fit a common pattern of being lower level skiers
on "bunny" slopes.

IIRC, that is what happened with Natasha Richardson (who was
married to Liam Neeson).

Yes Sonny Bono and Michael Kennedy, too.
I believe it's the most common scenario for fatalities at lift
serviced areas.

DR

On Dec 22, 10:15*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Dec 22, 7:55*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:



Mount Hood Meadows has been open for a month and a half!
Unbelievable, light snow for the Cascades this year. *This is why I
make my son wear a helmet:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWv-EX6bgw0
He's big in to Fright Trees. *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwWqnQj_ozw

You might want to explain to your son that ski helmets, like bike
helmets, are tested and certified only for less than 14 mph impacts.
Watch out for that "I've got a helmet, I'm bulletproof" risk
compensation.

- Frank Krygowski

Yeah, good point. That's huge a problem everywhere - kids head butting
trees at 30 mph or so because they think their helmet makes it safe.
Anything else we should all know from your skiing expertise?
DR

On Dec 23, 12:02*pm, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/23/2010 2:44 PM, DirtRoadie wrote:





On Dec 23, 8:46 am, Duane *wrote:
On 12/23/2010 10:36 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:

On Dec 22, 9:15 pm, Frank * *wrote:
On Dec 22, 7:55 pm, Jay * *wrote:

Mount Hood Meadows has been open for a month and a half!
Unbelievable, light snow for the Cascades this year. *This is why I
make my son wear a helmet:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWv-EX6bgw0
He's big in to Fright Trees. *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwWqnQj_ozw

You might want to explain to your son that ski helmets, like bike
helmets, are tested and certified only for less than 14 mph impacts.
Watch out for that "I've got a helmet, I'm bulletproof" risk
compensation.

BTW, I was a little hasty saying that I make him wear a helmet,
because I don't generally. *He wears his free-ski helmet as a fashion
statement, and he wears his racing helmet as a requirement. *In
general, and assuming he is not in the trees or the park, I don't care
whether he wears a helmet because I question the necessity or
effectiveness in soft snow impacts -- and the effect of added moment
to the head. If it is really icy, I might re-think that.

As for risk compensation, he might think twice about skiing tight
trees with no helmet -- but he is a smart kid and does not get in over
is head, helmet or not. *At his level, however, there is very little
terrain that is over his head. *-- Jay Beattie.

The snow board classes that my son takes require helmets.
For him to work as an instructor, he's required to wear a helmet.
He's grown up snow boarding with a helmet. *He's grown up cycling
with one as well. *Doesn't occur to him not to wear one, Frank's
mantra of Danger! Danger! notwithstanding.

I don't ski with a helmet but I find snow relatively soft to
fall on. *I don't ski in the woods much -at least not intentionally.
Snowboarders do ski in the woods though as well as in snow parks with
slides, rails and jumps. *Helmets are required in the snow parks but not
on slopes in general here. *There's some movement to make them
mandatory after that actress died in Tremblant on the bunny run but I
doubt it will get anywhere.

I have fully been expecting any helmet thread to turn to ski helmets,
especially since there is probably a much better compilation of data
about ski injuries than there is about bike injuries. This would be
the result of nearly any significant ski injury at a lift serviced
area being documented by the attending ski patrol.

When Frank sees the word helmet, he is moved to action.
He had to tell Jay how to educate his son because ski helmets
are only tested at 14 mph impact. *The same BS misrepresentation
as with bike helmets but I digress.

*From my own observations I will note that a very high percentage of
fatalities at ski areas are the result of head injuries, although head
injuries may be a small percentage of all injuries. And these
fatalities *regularly fit a common pattern of being lower level skiers
on "bunny" slopes. The reason being that it is relatively easy for
even a poorly skilled skier to remain upright, but with little
control, while gaining a fair amount of speed. Then if they run off
the side of the slope and into a tree - the result can be head injury
and death. Sonny Bono is just one classic example. In comparison if
the slope is steeper and/or bumpy the skier is more likely to simply
fall prior to gaining much speed or going into the trees. *A simple
fall on an open slope, by itself, is common (at least among the entire
population of skiers) and does not necessarily result in injury. And
if there is an injury it is more likely a leg injury. These days knee
damage (especially ACL) is probably more common than a broken bone.

The danger with skiing is pretty much relative to the terrain and your
ability.

I've fallen a lot more skiing than cycling, for example,
but had more serious injuries from the cycling fall. *Tarmac is
usually harder than snow. *I haven't gone into the trees since my first
day skiing though. *But then again I don't do double diamonds much
either.

As to helmet use, I don't know. *I don't wear one. *My son does but
he's a snow boarder. *His friends that ski wear them also. *It's just
what kids here do now. *When we went to buy his first equipment, the
helmet was part of it. *I don't find the lift lines any shorter because
of it.

As for helmets and snow boarding, they ride in the snow parks a lot
and there are the obstacles like the rails:

http://tinyurl.com/23re77r

so whether or not the helmet is tested for 14 mph and whether or not
they are going 14 mph at impact (the problem with that argument), it's
likely to help when they crack their head on the rails.- Hide quoted text -

FYI -- breaking news from Meadows.
http://www.kgw.com/news/local/15-yea...112392979.html
(Frank will love the gratuitous statement that the deceased was not
wearing a helmet).

My 15 year old son, Sam, is on the mountain right now doing race
training, although at a different resort (Ski Bowl). I'm sure my wife
is going to freak out when she reads this story and make my son swear
a blood oath that he will never, ever take off his magical foam hat.
She is a former bicycle racer (a good one at that) and the type of pro-
helmet zealot that would drive Frank crazy. In fact, I find myself
making Frank-like arguments in many helmet discussions with her. The
universe must remain in balance. -- Jay Beattie

On Dec 23, 1:02*pm, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/23/2010 2:44 PM, DirtRoadie wrote:
When Frank sees the word helmet, he is moved to action.
He had to tell Jay how to educate his son because ski helmets
are only tested at 14 mph impact. *The same BS misrepresentation
as with bike helmets but I digress.

Thanks, I had missed that. Frank is a piece of work.

The danger with skiing is pretty much relative to the terrain and your
ability.

I don't disagree there are all sorts of "it depends" factors, but I
was primarily pointing out that a very high proportion of fatalities
take place on what would be considered "easy" terrain at lift serviced
areas. It's not what might be intuitively expected, but it's very
obvious when the full set of circumstances is described that can
result in the simple formula: sufficient speed + collision with tree =
fatal injury.

*Tarmac is
usually harder than snow.
Yup. And sometimes snow is like a big feather bed making impact injury
impossible even if one were to crash. And snow, even hard snow (or
especially hard snow), is slippery enough that it doesn't do the same
kind of abrasive damage that one sees in "road rash" from a bike
crash.

DR

Per Duane Hébert:
But hers was really
weird as she fell on a wide and open beginner trail with a private
instructor next to her, just basically slipped.

My recollection is that she made the classic error of declining
medical attention bc she didn't feel all that bad.

Then, by the time the subdural hematoma (brain bruise?) started
swelling up it was too late.
--
PeteCresswell

On 12/23/2010 9:46 AM, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 12/23/2010 10:36 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Dec 22, 9:15 pm, Frank wrote:
On Dec 22, 7:55 pm, Jay wrote:



Mount Hood Meadows has been open for a month and a half!
Unbelievable, light snow for the Cascades this year. This is why I
make my son wear a helmet:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWv-EX6bgw0
He's big in to Fright Trees. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwWqnQj_ozw

You might want to explain to your son that ski helmets, like bike
helmets, are tested and certified only for less than 14 mph impacts.
Watch out for that "I've got a helmet, I'm bulletproof" risk
compensation.

BTW, I was a little hasty saying that I make him wear a helmet,
because I don't generally. He wears his free-ski helmet as a fashion
statement, and he wears his racing helmet as a requirement. In
general, and assuming he is not in the trees or the park, I don't care
whether he wears a helmet because I question the necessity or
effectiveness in soft snow impacts -- and the effect of added moment
to the head. If it is really icy, I might re-think that.

As for risk compensation, he might think twice about skiing tight
trees with no helmet -- but he is a smart kid and does not get in over
is head, helmet or not. At his level, however, there is very little
terrain that is over his head. -- Jay Beattie.

The snow board classes that my son takes require helmets.
For him to work as an instructor, he's required to wear a helmet.
He's grown up snow boarding with a helmet. He's grown up cycling
with one as well. Doesn't occur to him not to wear one, Frank's
mantra of Danger! Danger! notwithstanding.

I don't ski with a helmet but I find snow relatively soft to
fall on. I don't ski in the woods much -at least not intentionally.
Snowboarders do ski in the woods though as well as in snow parks with
slides, rails and jumps. Helmets are required in the snow parks but not
on slopes in general here. There's some movement to make them
mandatory after that actress died in Tremblant on the bunny run but I
doubt it will get anywhere.

Getting back up the slope under one's own power should be made mandatory.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On 12/23/2010 2:02 PM, Duane Hébert wrote:
[...]
When Frank sees the word helmet, he is moved to action.
He had to tell Jay how to educate his son because ski helmets
are only tested at 14 mph impact. The same BS misrepresentation
as with bike helmets but I digress.[...]

Why has mandatory Bicycle Foam Hat™ use failed to reduce serious head
injuries and fatalities everywhere it has been tried?

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.