Tips on carbon fiber WSD bikes?

J. D. Slocomb wrote:
:On Fri, 7 Jan 2011 20:34:44 -0800 (PST), Jay Beattie
wrote:

:On Jan 7, 3:54Â*pm, J. D. Slocomb wrote:
: On Thu, 6 Jan 2011 12:42:23 -0800 (PST), thirty-six
:
:
:
:
:
: wrote:
: On Jan 6, 6:42Â*am, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
: $southslope.net" wrote:
: On 1/5/2011 10:24 PM, aka Andr s Muro wrote:
:
: On Jan 5, 8:40 pm, Â*wrote:
: [...]
: Jobst is a fraud. Â*He says spokes were tied together to prevent
: entanglement. Â*Here is the absolute proof that the tied and soldered
: wheel was the original tangent spoked wheel.
:
: Â* A tied and soldered wheel constructed in this manner far beats any
: method described by JB in terms of load capacity, tracking, general
: stability, avoidance of buckling (rather smelly things), specifically
: lateral stability (torsional as Rudge describes it), climbing and
: sprinting efficiency.
:
: The interlaced spoke wheel came lalter as an economy measure with the
: claim that it was as good as a tied and soldered wheel. Â*It never was
: and still isn't. Â*It remains a production method for cheap bicycles
: where a wheel can be built in about 5 minutes. Â*In UK, the tied and
: soldered wheel still lived on as racing and heavy duty touring
: equipment where requested by wheelbuilders who had the skill. Â*Mostly
: this had been long forgotton by about 1990, new shop owners
: uninterested in aquiring the skills to mark them above the rest. Â*Many
: takeovers from the old mechanics failed and the businesses folded
: within two years, the knowledge just was not there to sustain the
: business.
:
: the skill to tie and solder wheels? what skill? To wrap the crosses
: with solder and you heat up. Why do that? Its a waste of time if a
: properly built wheel will last you forever. There are thousands of
: heavy duty tourists, cycle cross racers, pro racers, track sprinters,
: kerin racers and pro cyclists that put a hell of abuse on their wheels
: and yet they do great. If applying and melting some solder around the
: spokes would strengthen the wheels, everyone would do it. Fact is,
: Regular built wheels are pretty good. and plenty strong.
:
: Remember that Trevor lives in an alternate Universe.
:
: Spokes are *tied* with bee keeper's wire [1], then soldered (assuming
: one believes in the Myth & Lore .)
:
: T&S is performed on non-interlaced spokes.
: Specifically, the binding wire is soldered to the spokes so that there
: is no sliding of the spokes. Â*The thickening of the junction of the
: spokes also reduces bending of the spokes, which takes place due to
: tension differential. With 28 and more spokes, the T&S procedure is
: performed in two places. Â*The second binding, nearest the hub, ensures
: the best exit angle for the inner spokes meaning the load is taken
: upon the spoke elbow rather than the spoke head.
:
: [1] E.g.
: http://www.cyclingcloseouts.com/Products/DT-Swiss-ProLine-Beekeepers-....
:
: --
: T m Sherm n - 42.435731,-83.985007
: I am a vehicular cyclist.
:
: Disregarding the long running argument, exactly how does one solder
: stainless spokes? Do you use silver solder or some other type of
: special solder since common lead-tin solder doesn't seem to adhere
: well to stainless. Does it? Or is the technique to wrap with copper
: wire and simply coat the copper with lead-tin solder ignoring the
: non-adhesion to the stainless spokes?
: Cheers,
:
: John D. Slocomb
: (jdslocombatgmail)- Hide quoted text -
:
:I used a silver bearing solder and flux specified for stainless
:steel. I forget the brand. It was available at welding shops and NSF
:certified for use in food service. You could eat off my spoke ties,
:and the polished up real purdy. Then Jobst scolded me for tying and
:soldering about a million years ago, and I stopped. Sniff, sniff. --
:Jay Beattie.

:Most "silver solders" require temperatures roughly equal to "red hot"
:in order to flow and quite frequently used for assembling lugged
:frames. Is that what are referring to? Or have you found something
:that can be applied with a soldering iron?

:Given that "silver solder" is primarily silver and generally thought
:to be inherently food safe and you mention food safe. it sounds more
:like some sort of solder that might contain lead and as such would
:certainly not approach the strength of your stainless spokes.

There are probably a hundred different silver containing alloys used
in commercial applications. One I'm familar with, Indalloy 290, is (I
think) 97% indium and 3% silver. It melts at 143C, 290F, which is
hair dryer temperature, not red hot.

--
sig 96

On 1/7/2011 11:02 PM, Michael Press wrote:
In ,
Duane wrote:


You must have learned C?
In C++ the void is not required and not usually used. I don't think
that it causes a diagnostic on any compiler either way though. Unlike
void main(){}g

You can get the diagnostic if you work at it.

$ cat blivet.c
int main() { return 0; }

$ cc -Wstrict-prototypes blivet.c
blivet.c:1: warning: function declaration isn't a prototype

In C++, either is correct.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...(v=vs.80).aspx

Greg Comeau's compiler is one of the most compliant (at least for C++ -
not sure about for C but I imagine it's the same) You can test
C++ code here http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout/

How did we get this off topic again?

On 1/9/2011 5:56 PM, thirty-six wrote:
On Jan 9, 2:03 pm, "Duane wrote:
wrote in message

...

All three of these bikes had basically the same Shimano 105 setup, the
same seat and even the same Mavic wheels. Tires weren't exactly the
same but all were at 120psi. The geometries are not exactly the same but
I think they are close. The carbon frame was definitely less harsh. It
was the same road although it was only 30km test ride each time. I
certainly have the impression that the carbon was less jarring and
definitely dampened the road buzz.
If you'd have added some lead tape on the alloy bike in a few
appropriate places, you could have it as smooth riding as the fibre-
plastic bits.

Maybe but it had the comfy bar tape. Anyway, I'm happy with the one that
I bought and I ride it more than the one that I replaced. It's a different geometry
and I had a good fitting. The 10 speed double is nice so far (though I haven't done
more than a 12% grade with it yet so we'll see...) I can ride it as far as my touring
bike and it's more fun.

I was just surprised to hear from people that seem to know that carbon doesn't reduce road buzz.

There's always more than one solution. It's not really surprising
that a commercially available CF bike will reduce 'buzz'. It's when
structural components are taken near to their limits that vibration
generally becomes a problem. Straight tubes will be particularly
vulnerable and the forming of a CF monocoque with swollen joints
should be capable of eliminating the vibrational issues which are
present in some straight tubed metal frames. Whether or not
manufacturers have paid any specific attention is a different matter,
it is sufficient that the CF monocoque is naturally resistant to
vibratioon. It probably matters little that the diamond pattern is
retained if normal CF building techniques are adhered to.

Actually the top tube is a bit curved. Maybe that's why.
Specialized claims that it makes the bike more comfortable but
I thought that was just the usual marketing hype.
Dunno. Rides nice though.

On Jan 10, 2:05*pm, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 1/9/2011 5:56 PM, thirty-six wrote:



On Jan 9, 2:03 pm, "Duane *wrote:
*wrote in message

....

All three of these bikes had basically the same Shimano 105 setup, the
same seat and even the same Mavic wheels. Tires weren't exactly the
same but all were at 120psi. The geometries are not exactly the same but
I think they are close. The carbon frame was definitely less harsh. It
was the same road although it was only 30km test ride each time. I
certainly have the impression that the carbon was less jarring and
definitely dampened the road buzz.
If you'd have added some lead tape on the alloy bike in a few
appropriate places, you could have it as smooth riding as the fibre-
plastic bits.

Maybe but it had the comfy bar tape. *Anyway, I'm happy with the one that
I bought and I ride it more than the one that I replaced. *It's a different geometry
and I had a good fitting. *The 10 speed double is nice so far (though I haven't done
more than a 12% grade with it yet so we'll see...) *I can ride it as far as my touring
bike and it's more fun.

I was just surprised to hear from people that seem to know that carbon doesn't reduce road buzz.

There's always more than one solution. *It's not really surprising
that a commercially available CF bike will reduce 'buzz'. * It's when
structural components are taken near to their limits that vibration
generally becomes a problem. * Straight tubes will be particularly
vulnerable and the forming of a CF monocoque with swollen joints
should be capable of eliminating the vibrational issues which are
present in some straight tubed metal frames. *Whether or not
manufacturers have paid any specific attention is a different matter,
it is sufficient that the CF monocoque is naturally resistant to
vibratioon. *It probably matters little that the diamond pattern is
retained if normal CF building techniques are adhered to.

Actually the top tube is a bit curved. *Maybe that's why.
Specialized claims that it makes the bike more comfortable but
I thought that was just the usual marketing hype.
Dunno. *Rides nice though.

Remember that CF is still in its infancy, there has been over 100
years for steel alloy diamond pattern frames and 75years (or so) since
the introduction of the fabled 531 Reynolds tubing, used in motor
vehicles an aeroplanes as well as the relatively mundane racing and
touring bicycle. As there has been variety in details of steel
framemaking, there will be with carbon-fibre. Whether or not the
curved top tube was to reduce vibration of an initial design, the
variety is what sells, they could have done the same thing with an
internal rubber plug (to quench vibration) but you wont see the
difference, so its marketability is poor.

From the exchanges that have gone by on tis subject, I suspect that no
measurements or other qualifications exist. In particular, the
acoustic resonance of various bicycle frame tubes may have an effect
on how the rider assesses his ride quality.

Pieces of tubing hung lengthwise fro strings can be used as chimes by
striking them with a hard object. I think steel tubes would ring the
best while aluminum and CF tubes would fall far behind. They don't
make good marimba tubes either.

I think this quality can easily get confused with damping of road
roughness. Also highly inflated tires transmit more road texture
sounds than a softer and tire with thicker tread would.
--
Jobst Brandt

wrote:
From the exchanges that have gone by on tis subject, I suspect that no
measurements or other qualifications exist. In particular, the
acoustic resonance of various bicycle frame tubes may have an effect
on how the rider assesses his ride quality.

Pieces of tubing hung lengthwise fro strings can be used as chimes by
striking them with a hard object. I think steel tubes would ring the
best while aluminum and CF tubes would fall far behind. They don't
make good marimba tubes either.

I think this quality can easily get confused with damping of road
roughness. Also highly inflated tires transmit more road texture
sounds than a softer and tire with thicker tread would.


Generally, although you'd be surprised at some modern
carbon. The range is wide.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Jan 11, 2:05*am, wrote:
From the exchanges that have gone by on tis subject, I suspect that no
measurements or other qualifications exist. *In particular, the
acoustic resonance of various bicycle frame tubes may have an effect
on how the rider assesses his ride quality.

That is the matter under discussion, what took you so long? The
perceived 'buzz' while actually riding is more important than any
measured effect in some mock-up.

Pieces of tubing hung lengthwise fro strings can be used as chimes by
striking them with a hard object. *I think steel tubes would ring the
best while aluminum and CF tubes would fall far behind. *They don't
make good marimba tubes either.

I think this quality can easily get confused with damping of road
roughness.

Frame ringing is a defect requiring elimination.

*Also highly inflated tires transmit more road texture
sounds than a softer and tire with thicker tread would.

'Larger tread' would have been more correct. Hard tyres do indeed
transmit more road shock, what a worthwhile contribution.
* --
Jobst Brandt

On 1/10/2011 9:05 PM, wrote:
From the exchanges that have gone by on tis subject, I suspect that no
measurements or other qualifications exist. In particular, the
acoustic resonance of various bicycle frame tubes may have an effect
on how the rider assesses his ride quality.

Pieces of tubing hung lengthwise fro strings can be used as chimes by
striking them with a hard object. I think steel tubes would ring the
best while aluminum and CF tubes would fall far behind. They don't
make good marimba tubes either.

I think this quality can easily get confused with damping of road
roughness. Also highly inflated tires transmit more road texture
sounds than a softer and tire with thicker tread would.

My bike has 23c Specialized Flak Jackets inflated to 120psi. I thought
that I mentioned that. Rides pretty smooth anyway.

On Jan 6, 8:00*pm, thirty-six wrote:
On Jan 6, 4:24*am, " wrote:





On Jan 5, 8:40*pm, thirty-six wrote:

On Jan 6, 12:44*am, "Steve Freides" wrote:

Jim Rogers wrote:
On Jan 5, 3:52 pm, wrote:
Jim Rogers wrote:
It doesn't need to be exceptionally low because the rim distributed
spoke stiffness circumferentially if it isn't terminally radially
flexible, and fails to transfer the stiffness of spokes around the
rim.
Really? "Exceptionally low?" Are you sure it wasn't "exceptionally
exceptionally low?"

Exceptional, because such rims are not readily available because they
are useless for bicycling but apply to the circumstances described.

What is this "readily" stuff? Are these rims available or not?

Please leave the fluff out of your writing. People who use such
modifiers are generally trying to use bluff and bluster to cover
their lack of understanding.

You're probably correct there. I suppose I should have mad my
response a few sentences longer to cover that problem.

You suppose? Either you should have or you should not have. This is a
technical newsgroup and we are not interested in suppositions.

And why "a few sentences" longer? Could you not have simply said your
response should have been been longer? How many are a "few?" What are
you trying to hide with all these extra fluff words in your writing?

Simplify!

At least that's what a "friend of mine" once told me. Are you sure

he was your-friend and not just a friend known to other bikies?

He's a friend of all and a great critic of extraneous modifiers in
writing. Take his advice!

--Jim

Fascinating that anyone has the chutzpah to try and explain how bicycle
wheels work to Jobst. *The man literally wrote the book, and he does not
waste words, either. *I don't know who you are, Jim, but you don't know
to whom you're talking.

Mind you, I don't agree with everything Jobst says, but the last thing
I'm going to disagree with him about is the way a bicycle wheel works.

-S-

http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=r9ZuAAAAEBAJ

Jobst is a fraud. *He says spokes were tied together to prevent
entanglement. *Here is the absolute proof that the tied and soldered
wheel was the original tangent spoked wheel.

*A tied and soldered wheel constructed in this manner far beats any
method described by JB in terms of load capacity, tracking, general
stability, avoidance of buckling (rather smelly things), specifically
lateral stability (torsional as Rudge describes it), climbing and
sprinting efficiency.

The interlaced spoke wheel came lalter as an economy measure with the
claim that it was as good as a tied and soldered wheel. *It never was
and still isn't. *It remains a production method for cheap bicycles
where a wheel can be built in about 5 minutes. *In UK, the tied and
soldered wheel still lived on as racing and heavy duty touring
equipment where requested by wheelbuilders who had the skill. *Mostly
this had been long forgotton by about 1990, new shop owners
uninterested in aquiring the skills to mark them above the rest. *Many
takeovers from the old mechanics failed and the businesses folded
within two years, the knowledge just was not there to sustain the
business.

the skill to tie and solder wheels? what skill? To wrap the crosses
with solder and you heat up. Why do that? Its a waste of time if a
properly built wheel will last you forever.

That is not how a tied and soldered wheel is correctly built. *You're
ignorance is clear. It's not a waste, it improves wheel tracking under
heavy loading and rough conditions, permitting greater acceleration
during sprinting and faster climbing. *The interlaced wheel is a
relatively poor performer, particularly on thick flanges. *It is
suitable for economy bicycles only.

There are thousands of
heavy duty tourists, cycle cross racers, pro racers, track sprinters,
kerin racers and pro cyclists that put a hell of abuse on their wheels
and yet they do great. If applying and melting some solder around the
spokes would strengthen the wheels, everyone would do it. Fact is,
Regular built wheels are pretty good. and plenty strong.

Common interlaced wheels suffer from poor lateral stability when using
thick flanged hubs. *The original tangent wheel was tied and soldered
and superior to the economy interlaced wheel.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I don't know anything about solderning wheels as you say. Still, you
hae not been able to explain the advantages to me or to the thousands
of cyclists that ride succesfully with inexpesnive wheels for miles on
end.

You said:

"Common interlaced wheels suffer from poor lateral stability when
using
thick flanged hubs."

I don't know about the thinckness of my hubs, not about the lateral
stability of my wheels. I ride, climg, sprint, carry heavy loads on my
inexpensive wheels and the seem to last, last and last.

Are you saying that tied and solder wheels would be less expensive and
last longer?

I put thousands of miles on wheels over 25 years of riding. I've never
spend more than $200 on wheels and they last forever. The only ones
that sucked were some Mavics that cracked at the spoke holes. Im sure
that you are going to tell me that by tieng a soldering tem I would
have been able to use less tension. Better yet, I bought better rims,
and rebuilt the wheels myself and saved a lot of money.

Again, you tout that advantages of tied and soldered wheels. You need
to be able to articulate with specifics of the advantages.

How is ti that I am at a disadvantage with my wheels? You mean my
bike is less stable and I don't realize it? Do you mean that it is
carrying less weight that it could potentially carry? Am I losing
speed while sprinting? Is my descending less efficient? Am I losing
time in the TTs. Is my bike less comfortable when touring long
distances?

You coulda argue that it is a lost art and the aesthetics of tied and
soldered wheels are better. I like lugged bikes. They offer no
advantage. I find them just prettier even if they cost more than Tig
welded bikes. That is, to me, a legitimate argument for having lugged
bikes. However, I don't go around trying to convince others of the
invisible and impossible to articulate technical advatages of lugged
bikes.

Andres

In article ,
Duane Hébert wrote:

On 1/7/2011 11:02 PM, Michael Press wrote:
In ,
Duane wrote:


You must have learned C?
In C++ the void is not required and not usually used. I don't think
that it causes a diagnostic on any compiler either way though. Unlike
void main(){}g

You can get the diagnostic if you work at it.

$ cat blivet.c
int main() { return 0; }

$ cc -Wstrict-prototypes blivet.c
blivet.c:1: warning: function declaration isn't a prototype

In C++, either is correct.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...(v=vs.80).aspx

C++ is not C. Correctness only matters for portability
and robust code; and not for its own sake. Compiler warnings
are a benefit, not a hindrance.

Greg Comeau's compiler is one of the most compliant (at least for C++ -
not sure about for C but I imagine it's the same) You can test
C++ code here http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout/

How did we get this off topic again?

You posted a code fragment without comment,
and I made of it what I wanted to.

--
Michael Press