Tips on carbon fiber WSD bikes?

On Jan 16, 9:38*pm, " wrote:
On Jan 16, 12:20*pm, thirty-six wrote:



On Jan 16, 3:22*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Jan 15, 8:21*am, thirty-six wrote:

On Jan 14, 7:10*pm, wrote:

*This
effect has been researched with precise measurement and published in
"the Bicycle Wheel" in order to put substance to the claims you make.

I'll remind you for the umpteenth time, your method of measurement was
irrelevant, it was incomplete.

I'm curious about _your_ *measurements, Trevor. *IIRC, you've given no
numbers at all, just your (over)confident pronouncements.

Yes, I have given you the spoke tension typical for my wheels, that of
170lb, giving better tracking over rougher surfaces and a smoother
ride with greater speed than a simple interlaced wheel. *

What evidence do you have of this?

I measured the period of oscillation with a stopwatch, the spoke
circumference and length with a yard stick and throuigh excellent
computational skills, calculated the tension.

Can you cite the study? If you
can't, you ought to say that in your personal experience the wheels
track better and are more comfortable.

On 1/16/2011 3:09 PM, thirty-six aka Trevor Jeffrey wrote:
On Jan 16, 8:37 pm, Frank wrote:
On Jan 16, 2:20 pm, wrote:



On Jan 16, 3:22 am, Frank wrote:

On Jan 15, 8:21 am, wrote:

On Jan 14, 7:10 pm, wrote:

This
effect has been researched with precise measurement and published in
"the Bicycle Wheel" in order to put substance to the claims you make.

I'll remind you for the umpteenth time, your method of measurement was
irrelevant, it was incomplete.

I'm curious about _your_ measurements, Trevor. IIRC, you've given no
numbers at all, just your (over)confident pronouncements.

Yes, I have given you the spoke tension typical for my wheels, that of
170lb, giving better tracking over rougher surfaces and a smoother
ride with greater speed than a simple interlaced wheel. The
difference is spoke tension is that required to tighten up the bends
in the simple interlaced wheel. This makes the wheel ride hard, yet
with stilll relatively poor stability.

You miss the point.

It's you that misses the point. The approach is completely different,
I build my wheels soft with complete stability. The limitations of
the design are bound by the available components, not the method of
construction. I work with what I'm given, there is not a significant
difference in wheel response because the method tailors the wheel to
the load and conditions using a dynamic process on REAL ROADS.

What you've claimed for your wheels is precision
in tracking and increased comfort (among other things). You said, for
example, "Lateral displacement of the rim at the road, relative to the
frame is much reduced. This is tracking."

Fine. Can you post your measurements?

It's a dynamic response, difficult to actually measure all the many
variables present. The wheel is optimised, and while different depths
of rim will affect performance, not nearly so much because each wheel
is tailored to specific axle weight and ride conditions. I do not
require static measurements.

You also alluded to increased comfort, which I suppose must be related
to increased radial deflection. ("The effect of tying and soldering
is that it permits a wheel to traverse rough sections with comfort and
speed (lowered spoke tension.")

Do you have measurements of radial deflection with wheels of your
design, vs. (say) Jobst's design?

The only measurements worthwhile are from an accelerometer.
Deflection tests only compare wheels built to the same method and even
then can misguide.

Even better would be measurements
of total deflection at the rider's contact points, which is where
comfort would be sensed.



The fault with simple interlacing is clear to see, the bends in the
spokes at the 'interleave' require removing not measuring. The wheel
and its spoke structure are three dimensional, that is how I consider
it, unlike JB. His so-called 'measurement' of radial displacement as
published was an estimation based on faulty hypothesis of the load
distribution of a suspension wheel. The torque displacement was
performed without a radial load. This cannot be performed by a rider
on a bicycle. Both 'measurements' are deceiving to the gullible.

In _The Bicycle Wheel_ I see data from finite element computations for
radial displacements due to simultaneous application of both torque
and radial loads. Isn't that what you're now talking about?

In other words, no measurements.


Anyway - If you think his numbers are in error, how big is the error
compared to your measurements? How many tenths of a millimeter (or
thousandths of an inch) do you think he was off?

A country mile.

- Frank Krygowski


If Trevor was not from a different Universe, I would find him to be a
nutter.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Frank Krygowski wrote to Trevor aka thirty-six:

What you've claimed for your wheels is precision
in tracking and increased comfort (among other things). *You said, for
example, "Lateral displacement of the rim at the road, relative to the
frame is much reduced. *This is tracking."

Fine. *Can you post your measurements?

You also alluded to increased comfort, which I suppose must be related
to increased radial deflection. *("The effect of tying and soldering
is that it permits a wheel to traverse rough sections with comfort and
speed (lowered spoke tension.")

Frank, what Trevor is saying is that his special solder blobs and
loose spokes make a wheel that is vertically compliant, but laterally
stiff. The fact that he's been able to accomplish this without carbon
fiber, proprietary elastomer inserts, a third hub flange, niobium,
ceramic bearings, or red paint is truly remarkable.

Chalo

On Jan 16, 3:07*pm, thirty-six wrote:
On Jan 16, 9:38*pm, " wrote:



On Jan 16, 12:20*pm, thirty-six wrote:

On Jan 16, 3:22*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Jan 15, 8:21*am, thirty-six wrote:

On Jan 14, 7:10*pm, wrote:

*This
effect has been researched with precise measurement and published in
"the Bicycle Wheel" in order to put substance to the claims you make.

I'll remind you for the umpteenth time, your method of measurement was
irrelevant, it was incomplete.

I'm curious about _your_ *measurements, Trevor. *IIRC, you've given no
numbers at all, just your (over)confident pronouncements.

Yes, I have given you the spoke tension typical for my wheels, that of
170lb, giving better tracking over rougher surfaces and a smoother
ride with greater speed than a simple interlaced wheel. *

What evidence do you have of this?

I measured the period of oscillation with a stopwatch, the spoke
circumference and length with a yard stick and throuigh excellent
computational skills, calculated the tension.

Can you cite the study? If you
can't, you ought to say that in your personal experience the wheels
track better and are more comfortable.

Your own measurements are not valid evidence unless published and
accepted by your peers. They are still your personal observations and
your personal experience.

So, again, you can say that in your personal experience and from your
personal observations you find such and such wheels to be better.

What you cannot say is that the wheels are better unless you can point
to the objective and establish research that supports the claim.

On Jan 17, 12:36*am, Chalo wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote to Trevor aka thirty-six:



What you've claimed for your wheels is precision
in tracking and increased comfort (among other things). *You said, for
example, "Lateral displacement of the rim at the road, relative to the
frame is much reduced. *This is tracking."

Fine. *Can you post your measurements?

You also alluded to increased comfort, which I suppose must be related
to increased radial deflection. *("The effect of tying and soldering
is that it permits a wheel to traverse rough sections with comfort and
speed (lowered spoke tension.")

Frank, what Trevor is saying is that his special solder blobs and
loose spokes make a wheel that is vertically compliant, but laterally
stiff. *

Relatively speaking.

The fact that he's been able to accomplish this without carbon
fiber, proprietary elastomer inserts, a third hub flange, niobium,
ceramic bearings, or red paint is truly remarkable.

It may have been possible with a couple of million spent on
marketing. Actually the red paint idea I could take up. (or
something similar, )...



Chalo

On Jan 17, 2:16*am, " wrote:
On Jan 16, 3:07*pm, thirty-six wrote:



On Jan 16, 9:38*pm, " wrote:

On Jan 16, 12:20*pm, thirty-six wrote:

On Jan 16, 3:22*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Jan 15, 8:21*am, thirty-six wrote:

On Jan 14, 7:10*pm, wrote:

*This
effect has been researched with precise measurement and published in
"the Bicycle Wheel" in order to put substance to the claims you make.

I'll remind you for the umpteenth time, your method of measurement was
irrelevant, it was incomplete.

I'm curious about _your_ *measurements, Trevor. *IIRC, you've given no
numbers at all, just your (over)confident pronouncements.

Yes, I have given you the spoke tension typical for my wheels, that of
170lb, giving better tracking over rougher surfaces and a smoother
ride with greater speed than a simple interlaced wheel. *

What evidence do you have of this?

I measured the period of oscillation with a stopwatch, the spoke
circumference and length with a yard stick and throuigh excellent
computational skills, calculated the tension.

Can you cite the study? If you
can't, you ought to say that in your personal experience the wheels
track better and are more comfortable.

Your own measurements are not valid evidence unless published and
accepted by your peers. They are still your personal observations and
your personal experience.

So, again, you can say that in your personal experience and from your
personal observations you find such and such wheels to be better.

What you cannot say is that the wheels are better unless you can point
to the objective and establish research that supports the claim.

"Better" is subjective, my wheels are miles better. I can say this
all day., absolute fact. Tell me why I would want a cheap, economy
class of wheel, other than it's cheap, performs poorly and has magic
poerformed on the spokes.

On Jan 16, 4:09*pm, thirty-six wrote:
On Jan 16, 8:37*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

*What you've claimed for your wheels is precision
in tracking and increased comfort (among other things). *You said, for
example, "Lateral displacement of the rim at the road, relative to the
frame is much reduced. *This is tracking."

Fine. *Can you post your measurements?

It's a dynamic response, difficult to actually measure all the many
variables present. *The wheel is optimised, and while different depths
of rim will affect performance, not nearly so much because each wheel
is tailored to specific axle weight and ride conditions. *I do not
require static measurements.

That was a very long winded way of saying "No."

- Frank Krygowski

On Jan 17, 3:02*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jan 16, 4:09*pm, thirty-six wrote:

On Jan 16, 8:37*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

*What you've claimed for your wheels is precision
in tracking and increased comfort (among other things). *You said, for
example, "Lateral displacement of the rim at the road, relative to the
frame is much reduced. *This is tracking."

Fine. *Can you post your measurements?

It's a dynamic response, difficult to actually measure all the many
variables present. *The wheel is optimised, and while different depths
of rim will affect performance, not nearly so much because each wheel
is tailored to specific axle weight and ride conditions. *I do not
require static measurements.

That was a very long winded way of saying "No."

- Frank Krygowski

I could take measurement if I was inclined, I'm not because no purpose
would be served. As has been clearly stated the feel of a wheel is
clearly subjective and the differences in figures do not necessarily
represent the differences in feel. It is quite possible that all
wheels of the same diameter respond almost identically as long as they
can be dialled in by my method.

In article ,
AMuzi wrote:
"traverse rough sections"

I just rode in across frozen crud from last evening's snow.
Tire ruts, ice lumps under the snow and sidewalks stippled
with heel prints all frozen rock solid. My mid-1980s French
wheels, 3x 36h unsoldered tubulars, are just fine thanks.
Which is good because the once-plated green nipples haven't
turned for ten years now.

Why ever would I seek any improvement over this perfection?

I thought you rode WC studs.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press wrote:
In article ,
AMuzi wrote:
"traverse rough sections"

I just rode in across frozen crud from last evening's snow.
Tire ruts, ice lumps under the snow and sidewalks stippled
with heel prints all frozen rock solid. My mid-1980s French
wheels, 3x 36h unsoldered tubulars, are just fine thanks.
Which is good because the once-plated green nipples haven't
turned for ten years now.

Why ever would I seek any improvement over this perfection?

I thought you rode WC studs.


22mm tubs on all my bikes except the folder.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971