Tips on carbon fiber WSD bikes?

Duane Hébert wrote:
On 1/4/2011 4:25 PM, Michael Press wrote:
In ,
wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In ,
Duane wrote:

On 1/3/2011 3:45 PM, Chalo wrote:
Duane Hébert wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:
In contrast, I can buy a box of 525 tubing and braze it up in
adult ed
metal shop -- and since I am not like you and do not work in a
shop,
that is where I go to fix my steel frames.
Jay, are you replying to me or to Chalo? I suspect that he works
in a
shop but I'm certain that I don'tg
Hey, maybe you should consider it! "Vélocipèdes Artisanales
par
Maître Douain Hébert." Sounds expensive.
LOL. But I'm afraid that if it doesn't start with

int main() {

I'm going to be lost.

I am positive you meant to write int main(void) {


If std C, more likely

int main(int argc, char **argv)

Note that the opening '{' is on the next line.

But if C++? Well, why bother. C is the one true programming language.
Use assembly only in extreme cases.

Yes, in fact, I put the opening brace on the next line;
but that is another kettle of worms.

Yep. We have 5 SEs in my group and we had problems
arriving at a consensus. It's not just whether it's on the next line
but how many spaces to indent. Seems like we should have better things
to waste our time on.

The answer is not to use spaces but a single 8 char width tab, as in;

int main(int argc, char **argv)
{
int c;

for (c = 0; c 5; c++) {
printf("c = %d\n", c);
}

return 0;
}

(Note that the news readers may translate the tab I used to 8 spaces - ugh).

I try to adhere to the rules from the guru;

/usr/src/linux/Documentation/CodingStyle

JS.

On Jan 4, 12:52*pm, James wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:
We need to have a discussion some time about stiff wheels. *I'm having
trouble conceptualizing how an adequately tensioned wheel would not be
radially stiff (not talking laterally). I hear talk from various racer
buddies about how one wheel or another is super stiff and a "secret
weapon" (another over-used advertising term) in sprints, etc., which
suggests to me that a wheel can be radially limp some how, at least
relatively speaking.-- Jay Beattie.

Jay's bedtime reading ;-)

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/w...-23159755.html

The first link is lateral stiffness. The second link does talk about
frontal/radial stiffness and makes me wonder why anyone would buy a
wheel with spoke tension so low that it would allow rim deformation
under normal load -- particularly an uber-expensive carbon wheel. --
Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jan 4, 12:52 pm, James wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:
We need to have a discussion some time about stiff wheels. I'm having
trouble conceptualizing how an adequately tensioned wheel would not be
radially stiff (not talking laterally). I hear talk from various racer
buddies about how one wheel or another is super stiff and a "secret
weapon" (another over-used advertising term) in sprints, etc., which
suggests to me that a wheel can be radially limp some how, at least
relatively speaking.-- Jay Beattie.
Jay's bedtime reading ;-)

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/w...-23159755.html

The first link is lateral stiffness. The second link does talk about
frontal/radial stiffness and makes me wonder why anyone would buy a
wheel with spoke tension so low that it would allow rim deformation
under normal load -- particularly an uber-expensive carbon wheel. --

Hang out in bike shops a bit.

"A pair of Campagnolo wheels is $259? I got these WhizBangs
from chinesecrap.cn for $87!"

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jan 4, 12:52 pm, James wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:
We need to have a discussion some time about stiff wheels. I'm having
trouble conceptualizing how an adequately tensioned wheel would not be
radially stiff (not talking laterally). I hear talk from various racer
buddies about how one wheel or another is super stiff and a "secret
weapon" (another over-used advertising term) in sprints, etc., which
suggests to me that a wheel can be radially limp some how, at least
relatively speaking.-- Jay Beattie.
Jay's bedtime reading ;-)


http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-23159755.html

The first link is lateral stiffness. The second link does talk about
frontal/radial stiffness and makes me wonder why anyone would buy a
wheel with spoke tension so low that it would allow rim deformation
under normal load -- particularly an uber-expensive carbon wheel. --
Jay Beattie.


Indeed. My old set of CXP30 wheel were (as far as I could perceive)
radially stiffer than my current OpenPro and Ksyrium wheels.

The difference became more noticeable in cornering on roads where there
is some corrugation. The CXP30 wheels tended to skip across the road
whereas the OpenPros and Ksyriums tend to ride the bumps a little more
softly and remain in contact with the road more.

As a friendly LBS owner describes it, the OpenPros are like wearing
slippers by comparison.

The CXP30's were bullet proof, I guess reasonably aero, but fairly heavy.

After 10 or so years of not racing, I started again last July with the
local veteran club. I've won a few A grade road sprints on the Ksyriums
now, and for someone who was never renowned as a road sprinter, I feel
the Ksyriums are no handicap, despite the low profile rim and low spoke
count (20 in the rear).

There is also some radial stiffness discussion here;
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/grignon.htm

JS.

Op 4-1-2011 22:41, Jean schreef:

.. I used to have Avocet
25c's on the bike and it was very plush riding. The plushness allowed me to
actually ride faster than I now do with lighter 23c tires.

Jean




I'm sure that it has nothing to do with the 23 versus 25 mm property of
the tire. You are kidding yourself. Did you measured the actual widths
of the tires. If it is 22 versus 27 mm than you maybe have a point in
the plush riding department, but often 23 versus 25 mm is actually 23
versus 24.x mm.
My experience is that if the wider tire is more comfortable it is also
slower than the skinnier model of the same type. For you a 23 mm
Michelin ProRace2 at 6 bar is more comfortable than the 25 mm Michelin
ProRace2 at 6 bar. At the same time the 25 mm tire will have less
rolling resistance.

Lou

James Steward wrote:

We need to have a discussion some time about stiff wheels. I'm
having trouble conceptualizing how an adequately tensioned wheel
would not be radially stiff (not talking laterally). I hear talk
from various racer buddies about how one wheel or another is
super stiff and a "secret weapon" (another over-used advertising
term) in sprints, etc., which suggests to me that a wheel can be
radially limp some how, at least relatively speaking.



http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-23159755.html

The first link is lateral stiffness. The second link does talk about
frontal/radial stiffness and makes me wonder why anyone would buy a
wheel with spoke tension so low that it would allow rim deformation
under normal load -- particularly an uber-expensive carbon wheel. --

Lateral stiffness or lateral wheel collapse is dependent on rim
lateral stiffness, something that is not guaranteed by CF rims. In the
days of yore, riders would spoke up track wheels for ultimate light
weight and end up with a pretzeled wheel at the first outing. Those
were aluminum rims.

Indeed. My old set of CXP30 wheel were (as far as I could perceive)
radially stiffer than my current Open-Pro and Ksyrium wheels.

Radial stiffness relies mainly on spokes, because they must
elastically stretch to appear flexible or soft.

The difference became more noticeable in cornering on roads where there
is some corrugation. The CXP30 wheels tended to skip across the road
whereas the Open-Pros and Ksyriums tend to ride the bumps a little more
softly and remain in contact with the road more.

Are you using the same tires and inflation? You can't feel spoke
elasticity so I assume you are getting tire flex.

As a friendly LBS owner describes it, the Open-Pros are like wearing
slippers by comparison.

Sounds like a good sales talk!

The CXP30's were bullet proof, I guess reasonably aero, but fairly heavy.

After 10 or so years of not racing, I started again last July with the
local veteran club. I've won a few A grade road sprints on the Ksyriums
now, and for someone who was never renowned as a road sprinter, I feel
the Ksyriums are no handicap, despite the low profile rim and low spoke
count (20 in the rear).

Why do you do THAT? Low spoke count and low rim profile don't like
each other!

There is also some radial stiffness discussion here;

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/grignon.htm

That doesn't sound like a good ruling. If this is a bicycle event
then competitors should use comparable equipment, which Moser did not.
--
Jobst Brandt

James Steward wrote:

We need to have a discussion some time about stiff wheels. I'm
having trouble conceptualizing how an adequately tensioned wheel
would not be radially stiff (not talking laterally). I hear talk
from various racer buddies about how one wheel or another is
super stiff and a "secret weapon" (another over-used advertising
term) in sprints, etc., which suggests to me that a wheel can be
radially limp some how, at least relatively speaking:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-23159755.html

The first link is lateral stiffness. The second link does talk
about frontal/radial stiffness and makes me wonder why anyone would
buy a wheel with spoke tension so low that it would allow rim
deformation under normal load -- particularly an uber-expensive
carbon wheel. --

Lateral stiffness or lateral wheel collapse is dependent on rim
lateral stiffness, something that is not guaranteed by CF rims. In the
days of yore, riders would spoke up track wheels for ultimate light
weight and end up with a pretzeled wheel at the first outing. Those
were aluminum rims.

Indeed. My old set of CXP30 wheel were (as far as I could perceive)
radially stiffer than my current Open-Pro and Ksyrium wheels.

Radial stiffness relies mainly on spokes, because they must
elastically stretch to appear flexible or soft.

The difference became more noticeable in cornering on roads where there
is some corrugation. The CXP30 wheels tended to skip across the road
whereas the Open-Pros and Ksyriums tend to ride the bumps a little more
softly and remain in contact with the road more.

Are you using the same tires and inflation? You can't feel spoke
elasticity so I assume you are getting tire flex.

As a friendly LBS owner describes it, the Open-Pros are like wearing
slippers by comparison.

Sounds like a good sales talk!

The CXP30's were bullet proof, I guess reasonably aero, but fairly heavy.

After 10 or so years of not racing, I started again last July with the
local veteran club. I've won a few A grade road sprints on the Ksyriums
now, and for someone who was never renowned as a road sprinter, I feel
the Ksyriums are no handicap, despite the low profile rim and low spoke
count (20 in the rear).

Why do you do THAT? Low spoke count and low rim profile don't like
each other!

There is also some radial stiffness discussion here;

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/grignon.htm

That doesn't sound like a good ruling. If this is a bicycle event
then competitors should use comparable equipment, which Moser did not.
--
Jobst Brandt

On 1/4/2011 3:46 PM, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 1/4/2011 3:30 PM, landotter wrote:
On Jan 4, 2:21 pm, Duane wrote:
On 1/4/2011 3:09 PM, Chalo wrote:

Those frames seem a lot less flimsy and flexible when they are
equipped with stiff wheels, stems, and cranks.

I like the steel frames precisely because of the thin tubes.

Cannondale is probably one of the reasons that I don't like aluminum.
I had one around 20 years ago with the fat tubes. I was coming down a
mountain side in New Hampshire and I hit a pebble or something. The
frame started doing this harmonic hum that went through the fillings in
my teeth. Pretty scary at 60k/h.

I don't really care what sound pebbles make when they hit my down
tube. Thak, pinnnnng, or ponk. Whatever.

No, it wasn't the pebble hitting the frame that bothered me. It's the
frame that started "humming" - high frequency vibration.

I have a couple of lugged steel, a couple of welded steel, and a couple
Cannondales. The Cannondales seem much more stable at high speeds. I'll
ride no hands at 60 kph.

On 1/4/2011 4:34 PM, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 1/4/2011 4:25 PM, Michael Press wrote:
In ,
wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
In ,
Duane wrote:

On 1/3/2011 3:45 PM, Chalo wrote:
Duane Hébert wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:
In contrast, I can buy a box of 525 tubing and braze it up in
adult ed
metal shop -- and since I am not like you and do not work in a
shop,
that is where I go to fix my steel frames.
Jay, are you replying to me or to Chalo? I suspect that he works
in a
shop but I'm certain that I don'tg
Hey, maybe you should consider it! "Vélocipèdes Artisanales par
Maître Douain Hébert." Sounds expensive.
LOL. But I'm afraid that if it doesn't start with

int main() {

I'm going to be lost.

I am positive you meant to write int main(void) {


If std C, more likely

int main(int argc, char **argv)

Note that the opening '{' is on the next line.

But if C++? Well, why bother. C is the one true programming language.
Use assembly only in extreme cases.

Yes, in fact, I put the opening brace on the next line;
but that is another kettle of worms.

Yep. We have 5 SEs in my group and we had problems
arriving at a consensus. It's not just whether it's on the next line but
how many spaces to indent. Seems like we should have better things to
waste our time on.

Ugh. I went to interpreted, dynamically typed languages decades ago and
never looked back.

Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 4-1-2011 22:41, Jean schreef:

. I used to have Avocet
25c's on the bike and it was very plush riding. The plushness
allowed me to actually ride faster than I now do with lighter 23c
tires. Jean




I'm sure that it has nothing to do with the 23 versus 25 mm property
of the tire. You are kidding yourself. Did you measured the actual
widths of the tires. If it is 22 versus 27 mm than you maybe have a
point in the plush riding department, but often 23 versus 25 mm is
actually 23 versus 24.x mm.
My experience is that if the wider tire is more comfortable it is also
slower than the skinnier model of the same type. For you a 23 mm
Michelin ProRace2 at 6 bar is more comfortable than the 25 mm Michelin
ProRace2 at 6 bar. At the same time the 25 mm tire will have less
rolling resistance.

Lou

I think letting 5-10 lbs. of air pressure out of whatever tire you find
to ride harshly will make them equal in comfort.

-S-