What makes a bicycle-safe drive-up window?

wrote:
A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. A person who's pushing for
that requirement was told that "safe bicyclist access" is probably too
vague to be meaningful or enforceable.

So what might be specifics?

Here's what I thought of:

Prohibit any longitudinal gaps in pavement that are wider than, say,
1/2 inch. That could be edges of drain grates, cracks, seams between
pavers or poured concrete sections, etc.

Prohibit smooth metal that would get slick in wet weather.

Keep it shoveled in snow? Perhaps salted, if necessary? (This could
be tough, since it's an ongoing maintenance issue. But then, I think
businesses ought to be made to shovel walks for pedestrians too.)

Assure that any vehicle detectors must recognize the presence of a
bicycle. That's in case some of the common fast-food drive-up designs
(where you shout in the mike at one spot, then pick up pseudo-food at
a window) might have loop detectors to tell when a vehicle's present.

Anybody got any other ideas?

- Frank Krygowski

Gee. Are you building a mountain? I use bank drive-thrus on my bike all
the time, but I don't eat much pseudo food, so my experiences are
limited. I've never had anyone give me a hard time at a drive-thru.

I would think that a business that kept the place safe for autos would
be sufficient. The property owners don't want negligence lawsuits.
Smooth metal would be unsafe for autos as well as bikes. I'm used to
dealing with poorly maintained roads that may have large cracks and
other longitudinal issues. Grates with holes large enough for a tire to
drop in should be banned city wide, not just at drive-thrus.

As far as detectors, wouldn't a door bell buzzer work as well? Automatic
detectors often seem to fail even for cars and I often wish, while
driving my car, that there was some manual way to let the light know I
am there.

On Feb 6, 10:22 am, Eric Vey wrote:
wrote:
A question's come up regarding zoning requirements, to try to ensure
safe bicyclist access to drive-up windows. ...

For those who think the entire idea is silly, let me give a bit more
context.

The situation is a company wanting a zoning variance, asking (among
other things) to install a drive-up window where it would normally be
prohibited.

A dedicated cyclist on the zoning board sees this as leverage, a way
to make sure that cyclists get access to this window. (We've all
heard of cases where cyclists have been denied access to such
windows.) He proposed that one condition for approving the variance
would be that cyclists be given safe access.

Another member of the board thought that "safe" access would be too
vague - that the board should spell out at least some specific
conditions.

He could, I suppose, say "Oh, you know... it's just got to be safe."
But since he was asked for specifics, I'm trying to help him.

BTW, there certainly are conditions that are safe for cars but unsafe
for bikes. Longitudinal slots for drain grates are one. A smooth,
wet, narrow metal strip (like a bridge expansion joint or train track)
on a curve is another. I once dropped a motorcycle in a 3 mph turn on
a wet railroad track.

Also: I like Carl's idea of a liability waiver in many situations;
but it may be less useful in this situation, where the company is
already begging the community for permission. Also, while IANAL, I'd
be a bit worried about companies using a liability waiver to neglect
elementary safety concerns.

- Frank Krygowski

On 2008-02-06, wrote:

Also: I like Carl's idea of a liability waiver in many situations;
but it may be less useful in this situation, where the company is
already begging the community for permission. Also, while IANAL, I'd
be a bit worried about companies using a liability waiver to neglect
elementary safety concerns.

IANAL either, but:

Neglecting elementary safety features would verge on commission of gross
negligence, which can't be waived; if the safety feature is elementary,
then the effect of its omission is clearly foreseeable. And gross negligence
can't be waived, no matter how hard companies (and ride organizers) try. So
I'd worry less about that.

However, I despise waivers on principle, so I'd prefer to just focus on
features, and hope the drive-up operator doesn't press for the waiver. You've
already mentioned drain grates and expansion joints, and loop detectors
have been brought up as well (though those can be made to work for bicycles).
Other things to consider are the height of the window, the sight lines,
and painted markings on the pavement (bad when wet).

Also, this might be a good time to ask for a bike rack to be installed for
non-drive up customers, if applicable.

--

Kristian Zoerhoff

On Feb 6, 11:19 am, Kristian M Zoerhoff
wrote:

Other things to consider are the height of the window, the sight lines,
and painted markings on the pavement (bad when wet).

Also, this might be a good time to ask for a bike rack to be installed for
non-drive up customers, if applicable.


I especially like the last two ideas. I'll certainly pass those on.
Thanks.

- Frank Krygowski

On 2008-02-06, wrote:
On Feb 6, 11:19 am, Kristian M Zoerhoff
wrote:

Other things to consider are the height of the window, the sight lines,
and painted markings on the pavement (bad when wet).

Also, this might be a good time to ask for a bike rack to be installed for
non-drive up customers, if applicable.


I especially like the last two ideas. I'll certainly pass those on.
Thanks.

You're welcome. If your zoning board buddy throws any other ideas out there,
would you mind tossing them my way? I recently got named to my village's plan
commission, so I'm going to be in a similar situation soon enough.

--

Kristian Zoerhoff

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 08:23:23 -0800, frkrygow wrote:

On Feb 6, 11:19 am, Kristian M Zoerhoff
wrote:

Other things to consider are the height of the window, the sight lines,
and painted markings on the pavement (bad when wet).

Also, this might be a good time to ask for a bike rack to be installed
for non-drive up customers, if applicable.


I especially like the last two ideas. I'll certainly pass those on.
Thanks.

I'd care more about the latter too. I have little interest in drive up
windows, but I care a lot about bike racks in front of *all* businesses.

Other than that, anything good enough for a motorcycle is good enough for
a bicycle. With experience in both you probably have some good ideas.

While I'm impressed with the earnest answers given here, get yourself on
the Thunderhead list. It's a strictly moderated Q&A forum for
bike/ped/planning/engineering professionals and bona fide advocates, with
a lot of good answers and no crap.

Matt O.