Waterford Bicycles

On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:03:02 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 6:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be
owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the
stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom
Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that I
looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber
bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from
racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained
from Waterford all custom built to your own body
measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see
a 12 speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those
speeds but I do like the idea of wireless with
hydraulic flat mount disks. Get a good set of wheels
and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended
an Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe
I should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since
it would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of
what little life I have left. And they have a lifetime
warranty and a construction method that doesn't have a
catastrophic failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not
to say anything at all about his many and varied
relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel
bikes in the PDG Paramount group but I think that
happened to be at the time when bicycling was not very
popular and it couldn't support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.
I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of
the Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many
years. It was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a
bad case of shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on
RtR. When they built the frame, I had them shorten the
stock top tube dimension by a cm, and have always wondered
of that was a factor. Seems unlikely, but who knows.
Thanks for that bit of information Ted. That gives me the
distinct impression that perhaps I should buy a "sport"
rather than full race model.

Gunnar Sport is what race bikes were in 1970. 500 length
caliper and clearance for 28 with mudguards or 32mm without.
Race geometry is 25mm max, 450 caliper.

Waterfords (despite 'suggested geometries') are each drawn
from scratch, custom to rider requirements including material
and tube gauge. There are no other quality differences between
the two lines- materials, welders, paint all exactly the same.

Waterfords can be optionally lugged silver braze, Gunnars are
all TIG.

I bought my Waterford frame back in 1998 I think. Late 1997 or
early 1998. I put 1998 Campagnolo Chorus group on it. The
first year with the new round top on the levers. I bought my
1200 model (Reynolds 753, silver brazed short point lugs)
through an internet bike dealer who got frames and bikes from
all over and resold them. I did not buy directly from
Waterford.

Sounds like exactly the bike (and components) I bought, mine was
in red. I bought it through my LBS; at the time it was a great
shop. (Hodson's Bay, owned and operated by Lynn Hodson)


...My 58cm frame is the standard frame geometry that Waterford
has/had on its website. So back then Waterford did make
standard size frames, not just custom. I believe Waterford
always offered custom sizing on its frames for free or minimal
upcharge if you did not want the standard size frame.

Yep, that's my recollection too. I bought the standard 60 cm size
with the top tube shortened by 1 cm as I mentioned upthread.
There was a small upcharge for that modest customization. As I
recall, we (the LBS owner and I) settled on that configuration
because the 58 seemed slightly too small and the 60 perhaps a bit
generous--figuring if it turned out to be too short, we could make
it up with a somewhat longer stem.

--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA

On 1/14/2021 9:27 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/14/2021 8:08 PM, John B. wrote:

Back in the day a steering shimmy was, perhaps not common,
but not an
unknown phenomena with motorcycles. In almost every case
replacing
front suspension parts to eliminate excessive play cured
the problem.
I wonder how much wheel shimmy with bicycles is due to
loose wheel or
head bearings.

Shimmy can be very weird, very hard to diagnose.

My motorcycle is a 1972 BMW R75/5, the short wheelbase
version (nicknamed SWB). In 1973 BMW lengthened the
wheelbase, adding maybe an inch to the swing arm. The rumor
is that was done to cure the tendency to get a "tank
slapper" - a front end shimmy so violent the handlebars
alternately hit either side of the tank.

There is dispute over the likelihood of this shimmy. I've
never experienced it, and certainly don't want to. It seems
fork mounted front fairings increase the chances (although I
used to run one), as do heavy loads mounted high on a rack
protruding behind the seat (which I've never used).

One guy with a famous BMW website (similar to Sheldon
Brown's, in a way) claims the only cure is super precise
alignment of the two fork tubes, to totally eliminate all
front fork stiction; and that any SWB owner is foolish to
skip this tedious procedure. Others say they've never
bothered with that, have ridden hundreds of thousands of
miles and had no problems.

OTOH, as Andrew knows, I once owned a 1966 Corvair Corsa. In
1973 I sold it cheap because it had developed an
intermittent violent shimmy at moderate speeds (maybe 50
mph) that neither I nor a couple suspension shops were able
to diagnose.


I've had that symptom (in a not-Corvair) which was cured by
replacement of the damaged spindles. It was both scary and
ate up a set of front tires pronto.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/15/2021 3:13 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op vrijdag 15 januari 2021 om 00:44:45 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 1/14/2021 5:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 3:26 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be owned by the
Schwinn family and they also produce the stock bikes "Gunnar" as
well as the fully custom Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing
model) that I looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber
bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from racing,
sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained from Waterford all
custom built to your own body measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see a 12
speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those speeds but I
do like the idea of wireless with hydraulic flat mount
disks. Get a good set of wheels and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended an
Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe I
should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since it
would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of what
little life I have left. And they have a lifetime warranty
and a construction method that doesn't have a catastrophic
failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not to
say anything at all about his many and varied relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel bikes in
the PDG Paramount group but I think that happened to be at the
time when bicycling was not very popular and it couldn't
support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.

I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of the
Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many years. It
was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a bad case of
shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on RtR. When they built
the frame, I had them shorten the stock top tube dimension by a
cm, and have always wondered of that was a factor. Seems
unlikely, but who knows.


It's an harmonic phenomenon which, as Jobst noted often, can occur when
frame is straight and headset is adjusted properly. See his notes at #8
H5 he

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part4/
I was going to say that a shorter top tube should reduce the tendency to
shimmy, other things being equal. Less length = more stiffness, so a
higher natural frequency.

Then I saw that Jobst implied the same thing on that site: "The longer
the frame and the higher the saddle, the greater the tendency to shimmy,
other things being equal."

Jan Heine claims roller bearing headsets reduce shimmy. I can't say if
that's true. I have a roller bearing headset only on my Cannondale
touring bike, but that bike is so rigid that shimmy is probably impossible.

Except, that is, one time I had a heavy and loose load in a very
flexible handlebar bag. The bag shimmied and took the bike with it. My
current bag is very rigid and probably adds enough inertia to the
steering to lessen any shimmy tendencies even further.


--
- Frank Krygowski

When I was a paperboy I used a bicycle with a step through frame because it was easy to get off and on the bike (we don't throw papers on the peoples lawn). With a lot of newspapers in the panniers I could introduce a shimmy every time by riding no hands and wack my handlebars. I did that for fun to see how long I would dare riding no hands with a shimmy.

Interesting. I also delivered papers by bike*, but I used a huge wire
basket mounted on the handlebars. (Perhaps the reflexes I developed then
triggered my love of handlebar bags.) I don't remember any shimmy ever
with that bike.

But your use of panniers (i.e. rear load) reminds me of our tandem tour
in 2019. Our tandem's frame is not nearly as rigid as modern ones, and
we did experience a bit of shimmy. I attributed it to having all our
load in the rear, and resolved to use front panniers next time.

(*BTW, I also did not toss papers on people's lawns. But most of the
houses on my route had wide driveways and double-wide garage doors,
typically left open during the day. As I did a 180 degree turn just
outside their garage doors, I threw the paper underhand so it slid
across the garage floor to the connecting door of the house. Those
houses required no dismounting.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/15/2021 10:10 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/15/2021 3:13 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op vrijdag 15 januari 2021 om 00:44:45 UTC+1 schreef Frank
Krygowski:
On 1/14/2021 5:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 3:26 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to
be owned by the
Schwinn family and they also produce the stock
bikes "Gunnar" as
well as the fully custom Waterford. The Waterford
R33 (full racing
model) that I looked at weighed very close to a
light carbon fiber
bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like
from racing,
sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained from
Waterford all
custom built to your own body measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a
lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will
see a 12
speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those
speeds but I
do like the idea of wireless with hydraulic flat mount
disks. Get a good set of wheels and they will last
forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn
recommended an
Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe I
should consider the latest Trek Madone as well
since it
would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of
what
little life I have left. And they have a lifetime
warranty
and a construction method that doesn't have a
catastrophic
failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is
not to
say anything at all about his many and varied
relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel
bikes in
the PDG Paramount group but I think that happened to
be at the
time when bicycling was not very popular and it couldn't
support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.

I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance
of the
Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many
years. It
was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a bad
case of
shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on RtR. When
they built
the frame, I had them shorten the stock top tube
dimension by a
cm, and have always wondered of that was a factor. Seems
unlikely, but who knows.


It's an harmonic phenomenon which, as Jobst noted often,
can occur when
frame is straight and headset is adjusted properly. See
his notes at #8
H5 he

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part4/
I was going to say that a shorter top tube should reduce
the tendency to
shimmy, other things being equal. Less length = more
stiffness, so a
higher natural frequency.

Then I saw that Jobst implied the same thing on that
site: "The longer
the frame and the higher the saddle, the greater the
tendency to shimmy,
other things being equal."

Jan Heine claims roller bearing headsets reduce shimmy. I
can't say if
that's true. I have a roller bearing headset only on my
Cannondale
touring bike, but that bike is so rigid that shimmy is
probably impossible.

Except, that is, one time I had a heavy and loose load in
a very
flexible handlebar bag. The bag shimmied and took the
bike with it. My
current bag is very rigid and probably adds enough
inertia to the
steering to lessen any shimmy tendencies even further.


--
- Frank Krygowski

When I was a paperboy I used a bicycle with a step through
frame because it was easy to get off and on the bike (we
don't throw papers on the peoples lawn). With a lot of
newspapers in the panniers I could introduce a shimmy
every time by riding no hands and wack my handlebars. I
did that for fun to see how long I would dare riding no
hands with a shimmy.

Interesting. I also delivered papers by bike*, but I used a
huge wire basket mounted on the handlebars. (Perhaps the
reflexes I developed then triggered my love of handlebar
bags.) I don't remember any shimmy ever with that bike.

But your use of panniers (i.e. rear load) reminds me of our
tandem tour in 2019. Our tandem's frame is not nearly as
rigid as modern ones, and we did experience a bit of shimmy.
I attributed it to having all our load in the rear, and
resolved to use front panniers next time.

(*BTW, I also did not toss papers on people's lawns. But
most of the houses on my route had wide driveways and
double-wide garage doors, typically left open during the
day. As I did a 180 degree turn just outside their garage
doors, I threw the paper underhand so it slid across the
garage floor to the connecting door of the house. Those
houses required no dismounting.)


heh heh reminds me of recent garage discussion.

Perhaps front-facing attached garages are designed by
architects who started as paperboys.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 7:28:03 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/14/2021 8:08 PM, John B. wrote:

Back in the day a steering shimmy was, perhaps not common, but not an
unknown phenomena with motorcycles. In almost every case replacing
front suspension parts to eliminate excessive play cured the problem.
I wonder how much wheel shimmy with bicycles is due to loose wheel or
head bearings.
Shimmy can be very weird, very hard to diagnose.

My motorcycle is a 1972 BMW R75/5, the short wheelbase version
(nicknamed SWB). In 1973 BMW lengthened the wheelbase, adding maybe an
inch to the swing arm. The rumor is that was done to cure the tendency
to get a "tank slapper" - a front end shimmy so violent the handlebars
alternately hit either side of the tank.

There is dispute over the likelihood of this shimmy. I've never
experienced it, and certainly don't want to. It seems fork mounted front
fairings increase the chances (although I used to run one), as do heavy
loads mounted high on a rack protruding behind the seat (which I've
never used).

One guy with a famous BMW website (similar to Sheldon Brown's, in a way)
claims the only cure is super precise alignment of the two fork tubes,
to totally eliminate all front fork stiction; and that any SWB owner is
foolish to skip this tedious procedure. Others say they've never
bothered with that, have ridden hundreds of thousands of miles and had
no problems.

OTOH, as Andrew knows, I once owned a 1966 Corvair Corsa. In 1973 I sold
it cheap because it had developed an intermittent violent shimmy at
moderate speeds (maybe 50 mph) that neither I nor a couple suspension
shops were able to diagnose.
I never experienced tank slappers on motorcycles nor shimmy on bicycles. This despite I am 6'4" tall and this would theoretically aggravate shimmy on a bicycle and front end stability especially on racing motorcycles and especially on drag racers which had extended frames likelier to have misalignment if less dangerous frame/fork interactions. I would think perhaps motorcycle problems would be especially sensitive to frame misalignment which goes back to the jig we were discussing earlier or what you were trying to change the subject to whatever you believe it should be called instead of the point of the discussion.

By the way, most Corvair shimmy problems were due to the tire tread and locally they would sell the owners a specific brand of tire that would end the shimmy.

On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 8:10:05 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/15/2021 3:13 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op vrijdag 15 januari 2021 om 00:44:45 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 1/14/2021 5:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 3:26 PM, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be owned by the
Schwinn family and they also produce the stock bikes "Gunnar" as
well as the fully custom Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing
model) that I looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber
bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from racing,
sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained from Waterford all
custom built to your own body measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see a 12
speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those speeds but I
do like the idea of wireless with hydraulic flat mount
disks. Get a good set of wheels and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended an
Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe I
should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since it
would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of what
little life I have left. And they have a lifetime warranty
and a construction method that doesn't have a catastrophic
failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not to
say anything at all about his many and varied relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel bikes in
the PDG Paramount group but I think that happened to be at the
time when bicycling was not very popular and it couldn't
support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.

I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of the
Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many years. It
was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a bad case of
shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on RtR. When they built
the frame, I had them shorten the stock top tube dimension by a
cm, and have always wondered of that was a factor. Seems
unlikely, but who knows.


It's an harmonic phenomenon which, as Jobst noted often, can occur when
frame is straight and headset is adjusted properly. See his notes at #8
H5 he

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bicycles-faq/part4/
I was going to say that a shorter top tube should reduce the tendency to
shimmy, other things being equal. Less length = more stiffness, so a
higher natural frequency.

Then I saw that Jobst implied the same thing on that site: "The longer
the frame and the higher the saddle, the greater the tendency to shimmy,
other things being equal."

Jan Heine claims roller bearing headsets reduce shimmy. I can't say if
that's true. I have a roller bearing headset only on my Cannondale
touring bike, but that bike is so rigid that shimmy is probably impossible.

Except, that is, one time I had a heavy and loose load in a very
flexible handlebar bag. The bag shimmied and took the bike with it. My
current bag is very rigid and probably adds enough inertia to the
steering to lessen any shimmy tendencies even further.


--
- Frank Krygowski

When I was a paperboy I used a bicycle with a step through frame because it was easy to get off and on the bike (we don't throw papers on the peoples lawn). With a lot of newspapers in the panniers I could introduce a shimmy every time by riding no hands and wack my handlebars. I did that for fun to see how long I would dare riding no hands with a shimmy.
Interesting. I also delivered papers by bike*, but I used a huge wire
basket mounted on the handlebars. (Perhaps the reflexes I developed then
triggered my love of handlebar bags.) I don't remember any shimmy ever
with that bike.

But your use of panniers (i.e. rear load) reminds me of our tandem tour
in 2019. Our tandem's frame is not nearly as rigid as modern ones, and
we did experience a bit of shimmy. I attributed it to having all our
load in the rear, and resolved to use front panniers next time.

(*BTW, I also did not toss papers on people's lawns. But most of the
houses on my route had wide driveways and double-wide garage doors,
typically left open during the day. As I did a 180 degree turn just
outside their garage doors, I threw the paper underhand so it slid
across the garage floor to the connecting door of the house. Those
houses required no dismounting.)
My wife and I had entirely different pedaling styles and speeds so we quite rapidly sold our tandem off. Because of this difference we did experience quite a bit of frame flex but never any shimmy. As I was saying before, one of the people I ride with has a Cannondale and he cannot coast anything like my bikes and slows quite rapidly. So finally I looked at his bike from behind and it was quite obvious that the heliarc caused the two rear vertical dropouts to be somewhat misaligned. This forces the bike to steer the front wheel slightly sideways and is the source of this extra drag that causes the rapid reduction in coasting speed. I sold this guy an aluminum Colnago that doesn't have this problem but he prefers his Cannondale for our rather slow Saturday rides.

On 1/15/2021 11:19 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/15/2021 10:10 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:


(*BTW, I also did not toss papers on people's lawns. But
most of the houses on my route had wide driveways and
double-wide garage doors, typically left open during the
day. As I did a 180 degree turn just outside their garage
doors, I threw the paper underhand so it slid across the
garage floor to the connecting door of the house. Those
houses required no dismounting.)


heh heh reminds me of recent garage discussion.

Perhaps front-facing attached garages are designed by architects who
started as paperboys.

:-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 7:49:45 AM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:03:02 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 6:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be
owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the
stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom
Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that I
looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber
bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from
racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained
from Waterford all custom built to your own body
measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see
a 12 speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those
speeds but I do like the idea of wireless with
hydraulic flat mount disks. Get a good set of wheels
and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended
an Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe
I should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since
it would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of
what little life I have left. And they have a lifetime
warranty and a construction method that doesn't have a
catastrophic failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not
to say anything at all about his many and varied
relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel
bikes in the PDG Paramount group but I think that
happened to be at the time when bicycling was not very
popular and it couldn't support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.
I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of
the Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many
years. It was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a
bad case of shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on
RtR. When they built the frame, I had them shorten the
stock top tube dimension by a cm, and have always wondered
of that was a factor. Seems unlikely, but who knows.
Thanks for that bit of information Ted. That gives me the
distinct impression that perhaps I should buy a "sport"
rather than full race model.

Gunnar Sport is what race bikes were in 1970. 500 length
caliper and clearance for 28 with mudguards or 32mm without.
Race geometry is 25mm max, 450 caliper.

Waterfords (despite 'suggested geometries') are each drawn
from scratch, custom to rider requirements including material
and tube gauge. There are no other quality differences between
the two lines- materials, welders, paint all exactly the same.

Waterfords can be optionally lugged silver braze, Gunnars are
all TIG.
I bought my Waterford frame back in 1998 I think. Late 1997 or
early 1998. I put 1998 Campagnolo Chorus group on it. The
first year with the new round top on the levers. I bought my
1200 model (Reynolds 753, silver brazed short point lugs)
through an internet bike dealer who got frames and bikes from
all over and resold them. I did not buy directly from
Waterford.
Sounds like exactly the bike (and components) I bought, mine was
in red. I bought it through my LBS; at the time it was a great
shop. (Hodson's Bay, owned and operated by Lynn Hodson)


My Waterford 1200 is a red/burgundy color. Candy apple red may have been the official Waterford color. Absolutely BEAUTIFUL. I'll let others argue about which frame material is the bestest of the best for making a bike frame. Titanium, carbon, aluminum, steel, bamboo, etc. But for pure aesthetics, nothing can touch a finely painted lugged steel frame and matching fork..




...My 58cm frame is the standard frame geometry that Waterford
has/had on its website. So back then Waterford did make
standard size frames, not just custom. I believe Waterford
always offered custom sizing on its frames for free or minimal
upcharge if you did not want the standard size frame.
Yep, that's my recollection too. I bought the standard 60 cm size
with the top tube shortened by 1 cm as I mentioned upthread.
There was a small upcharge for that modest customization. As I
recall, we (the LBS owner and I) settled on that configuration
because the 58 seemed slightly too small and the 60 perhaps a bit
generous--figuring if it turned out to be too short, we could make
it up with a somewhat longer stem.
--
Ted Heise West Lafayette, IN, USA

On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 2:31:10 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 7:49:45 AM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:03:02 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 6:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be
owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the
stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom
Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that I
looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber
bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from
racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained
from Waterford all custom built to your own body
measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see
a 12 speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those
speeds but I do like the idea of wireless with
hydraulic flat mount disks. Get a good set of wheels
and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended
an Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe
I should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since
it would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of
what little life I have left. And they have a lifetime
warranty and a construction method that doesn't have a
catastrophic failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not
to say anything at all about his many and varied
relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel
bikes in the PDG Paramount group but I think that
happened to be at the time when bicycling was not very
popular and it couldn't support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.
I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of
the Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many
years. It was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a
bad case of shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on
RtR. When they built the frame, I had them shorten the
stock top tube dimension by a cm, and have always wondered
of that was a factor. Seems unlikely, but who knows.
Thanks for that bit of information Ted. That gives me the
distinct impression that perhaps I should buy a "sport"
rather than full race model.

Gunnar Sport is what race bikes were in 1970. 500 length
caliper and clearance for 28 with mudguards or 32mm without.
Race geometry is 25mm max, 450 caliper.

Waterfords (despite 'suggested geometries') are each drawn
from scratch, custom to rider requirements including material
and tube gauge. There are no other quality differences between
the two lines- materials, welders, paint all exactly the same.

Waterfords can be optionally lugged silver braze, Gunnars are
all TIG.
I bought my Waterford frame back in 1998 I think. Late 1997 or
early 1998. I put 1998 Campagnolo Chorus group on it. The
first year with the new round top on the levers. I bought my
1200 model (Reynolds 753, silver brazed short point lugs)
through an internet bike dealer who got frames and bikes from
all over and resold them. I did not buy directly from
Waterford.
Sounds like exactly the bike (and components) I bought, mine was
in red. I bought it through my LBS; at the time it was a great
shop. (Hodson's Bay, owned and operated by Lynn Hodson)

My Waterford 1200 is a red/burgundy color. Candy apple red may have been the official Waterford color. Absolutely BEAUTIFUL. I'll let others argue about which frame material is the bestest of the best for making a bike frame. Titanium, carbon, aluminum, steel, bamboo, etc. But for pure aesthetics, nothing can touch a finely painted lugged steel frame and matching fork.

...My 58cm frame is the standard frame geometry that Waterford
has/had on its website. So back then Waterford did make
standard size frames, not just custom. I believe Waterford
always offered custom sizing on its frames for free or minimal
upcharge if you did not want the standard size frame.
Yep, that's my recollection too. I bought the standard 60 cm size
with the top tube shortened by 1 cm as I mentioned upthread.
There was a small upcharge for that modest customization. As I
recall, we (the LBS owner and I) settled on that configuration
because the 58 seemed slightly too small and the 60 perhaps a bit
generous--figuring if it turned out to be too short, we could make
it up with a somewhat longer stem.

The one thing that Colnago has in spades and that is the fanciest paint jobs in the world using a paint that is very difficult to put permanent scratches into. Trying to duplicate those things I powder coated the frames and then use rattlecan overspray to improve the paint jobs. One suggestion - only do this when it is warm enough for the paint to dry rapidly. For the Colnago it appears that they are using not transfers but actual decals on clear plastic and then clear coating the finished produce too have super strong and lasting art work.

On 1/15/2021 4:43 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 2:31:10 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, January 15, 2021 at 7:49:45 AM UTC-6, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 22:03:02 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 7:40:55 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 6:25 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-8, Ted Heise wrote:
On Thu, 14 Jan 2021 12:18:40 -0600,
AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 12:14 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2021 at 9:29:43 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/14/2021 10:04 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
For those unaware of it, the Waterford appears to be
owned by the Schwinn family and they also produce the
stock bikes "Gunnar" as well as the fully custom
Waterford. The Waterford R33 (full racing model) that I
looked at weighed very close to a light carbon fiber
bike. Virtually any model of bike you would like from
racing, sport, touring, gravel etc. can be obtained
from Waterford all custom built to your own body
measurements.

I think that what I will do is sell the Treks and the
Colnago and buy an R33. A local shop has the Waterford
fitting machine. Since Shimano has been losing a lot of
business to SRAM because wireless is so much easier to
install than the wired Di2, I think that 2021 will see
a 12 speed wireless Di2. I don't like all of those
speeds but I do like the idea of wireless with
hydraulic flat mount disks. Get a good set of wheels
and they will last forever.

While you can get a steel fork on the R33, if you want
internal hydraulic lines, Richard Schwinn recommended
an Enve fork to me. What this means to me is that maybe
I should consider the latest Trek Madone as well since
it would no doubt be totally reliable for the rest of
what little life I have left. And they have a lifetime
warranty and a construction method that doesn't have a
catastrophic failure mode.

Richard Schwinn is among the principals at Waterford
Precision.

But just like the Bulgers of Massachusetts, that is not
to say anything at all about his many and varied
relatives.

Schwinn tried to market some really top flight steel
bikes in the PDG Paramount group but I think that
happened to be at the time when bicycling was not very
popular and it couldn't support itself.

That was Richard's brother who is absolutely not pert o
Waterford Pre4cison Cycles.
I've been told Waterford was somewhat of a continuance of
the Paramount lineage, but perhaps that was not correct.

In 1997 I bought a nice Waterford and rode it for many
years. It was a very nice bike, but nearly killed me with a
bad case of shimmy coming down Fremont Pass one year on
RtR. When they built the frame, I had them shorten the
stock top tube dimension by a cm, and have always wondered
of that was a factor. Seems unlikely, but who knows.
Thanks for that bit of information Ted. That gives me the
distinct impression that perhaps I should buy a "sport"
rather than full race model.

Gunnar Sport is what race bikes were in 1970. 500 length
caliper and clearance for 28 with mudguards or 32mm without.
Race geometry is 25mm max, 450 caliper.

Waterfords (despite 'suggested geometries') are each drawn
from scratch, custom to rider requirements including material
and tube gauge. There are no other quality differences between
the two lines- materials, welders, paint all exactly the same.

Waterfords can be optionally lugged silver braze, Gunnars are
all TIG.
I bought my Waterford frame back in 1998 I think. Late 1997 or
early 1998. I put 1998 Campagnolo Chorus group on it. The
first year with the new round top on the levers. I bought my
1200 model (Reynolds 753, silver brazed short point lugs)
through an internet bike dealer who got frames and bikes from
all over and resold them. I did not buy directly from
Waterford.
Sounds like exactly the bike (and components) I bought, mine was
in red. I bought it through my LBS; at the time it was a great
shop. (Hodson's Bay, owned and operated by Lynn Hodson)

My Waterford 1200 is a red/burgundy color. Candy apple red may have been the official Waterford color. Absolutely BEAUTIFUL. I'll let others argue about which frame material is the bestest of the best for making a bike frame. Titanium, carbon, aluminum, steel, bamboo, etc. But for pure aesthetics, nothing can touch a finely painted lugged steel frame and matching fork.

...My 58cm frame is the standard frame geometry that Waterford
has/had on its website. So back then Waterford did make
standard size frames, not just custom. I believe Waterford
always offered custom sizing on its frames for free or minimal
upcharge if you did not want the standard size frame.
Yep, that's my recollection too. I bought the standard 60 cm size
with the top tube shortened by 1 cm as I mentioned upthread.
There was a small upcharge for that modest customization. As I
recall, we (the LBS owner and I) settled on that configuration
because the 58 seemed slightly too small and the 60 perhaps a bit
generous--figuring if it turned out to be too short, we could make
it up with a somewhat longer stem.

The one thing that Colnago has in spades and that is the fanciest paint jobs in the world using a paint that is very difficult to put permanent scratches into. Trying to duplicate those things I powder coated the frames and then use rattlecan overspray to improve the paint jobs. One suggestion - only do this when it is warm enough for the paint to dry rapidly. For the Colnago it appears that they are using not transfers but actual decals on clear plastic and then clear coating the finished produce too have super strong and lasting art work.


Not sure what you meant with those terms but many Colnago
models are multilayer paint with stencils, not vinyl or
acetate stickers, not waterslides, not film transfers.

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/col19n.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/col19p.jpg


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971