"Humans 'very likely' making earth warmer" is wrong

Bill Baka wrote:

My brain is thinking that measuring Joules in terms of power might not
be correct. I believe the definition of a Joule is a 1 Farad capacitor
charged to 1 volt, but I can't remember if it is a valid way to measure
power.

It can be defined a number of ways, all of them equivalent, and the most
convenient choice among the options typically depends on the
application. The bottom line is that it's a measure of energy, like
calories or BTUs, and the way that I used it here is the way "work" is
often defined in physics classes: the amount of energy required to lift
a one netwon weight one meter (or, equivalently, force applied times
distance moved). So in my example, 1N of force applied to a mass over a
distance of 1600m (one mile) equal 1600J of work. Of course, much more
energy than that may be expended in generating that 1N force, but the
amount of work done -- the amount of energy used to move the mass -- is
just 1600J per mile.

Joe Fischer wrote:
On Sat, Bill Baka wrote:

..........
With 9 billion people all competing for space and paving
over every thing in sight,

You need to get out more, except for a few places
like close to Manhattan, Los Angeles, Miami, etc., people
often get lost in the woods.

The woods are getting harder to find.

plus deforestation,

There are a lot more trees being planted than
cut down, the big deforestation period was the century
before coal was available at low cost.

I once read that there were woods in the 'now' prairies until settlers
came and 'tamed' the land. One book I read was dated 1911 and titled
"Man's control of the environment" and it was lamenting the loss of
natural primeval patches of forest. An environmental book a hundred
years ago. Who would have thought?? Obviously nobody paid attention.
As far as deforestation I was talking about the rain forests and other
areas that are having a population boom. If a few hundred square miles
of rain forest are burned do you think planting a few token trees is
going to make a difference?

plus the jet travel,
something will have to give.

Because of a lack of affordable energy, not
a lack of space. It was 30 F here this afternoon,
and driving past the cement plant, I turned off the
climate control in my car to prevent the white dust
on the road near the cement plant getting in the car,
and when I turned it back on, the air conditioning
came on for a minute, the sun was warming the
car, but it wasn't noticeable with automatic climate
control.

That makes me wonder, on a cold morning
I set the climate control for 78 F, could that be what
they are talking about on TV, I used to set it at 74.

I really don't think "Global warming" is the issue as much as "Global
smog". People have noticed in wooded areas that where once you could see
forever, now there is a permanent haze in the air, ahh, Globally.

It will either be starvation, war, or a
fast spreading new disease, but something WILL happen.

It always has, but the conditions that are a problem
today is almost total reliance on the commercial sector
for space heating, and in cold country, that can be a
big problem at any moment.

A least with a big house, when things get
really cold and there is no electric, oil, or natural gas,
one or two rooms might be enough wood to last
the rest of the winter when it will be warm enough
to start walking south. :-)

Joe Fischer

You don't need to tell me. I owned a 3,500 square foot house north of
Minneapolis and had 4 different types of heat. Propane, oil, electric
and wood burning stoves. I thought that was overkill until it got down
to 25 below zero and actually need to use 3 out of 4 to keep the house
anywhere near warm. I loved the snow but hated how much I had to spend
to keep it warm. Needless to say I moved back to California. I went
through about 3 cords of wood per month in addition to the rest.
Global what?
Not up there.
I think that it will be globally wild swings in the weather.
As far as we humans are concerned, I think that all the business and
vacation travel might spread some really nasty virus world wide. The flu
pandemic of 1918 would have killed maybe a billion today since we now
have the means to be anywhere on earth within about 12 hours on a plane.
Bill Baka

R.H. Allen wrote:
Bill Baka wrote:

My brain is thinking that measuring Joules in terms of power might not
be correct. I believe the definition of a Joule is a 1 Farad capacitor
charged to 1 volt, but I can't remember if it is a valid way to
measure power.

It can be defined a number of ways, all of them equivalent, and the most
convenient choice among the options typically depends on the
application. The bottom line is that it's a measure of energy, like
calories or BTUs, and the way that I used it here is the way "work" is
often defined in physics classes: the amount of energy required to lift
a one netwon weight one meter (or, equivalently, force applied times
distance moved). So in my example, 1N of force applied to a mass over a
distance of 1600m (one mile) equal 1600J of work. Of course, much more
energy than that may be expended in generating that 1N force, but the
amount of work done -- the amount of energy used to move the mass -- is
just 1600J per mile.

OK, I buy that. I think in terms of watts and 1 amp at 1 volt is one
watt, and one Joule is just how many electrons are needed to charge that
one Farad. It is probably time to dust off my old college books and
re-memorize all the conversions.
Bill Baka

Bill Sornson wrote:
Mark Hickey wrote (of/to Iron Bill "Ernest T" Baka):

... I can only
conclude that you're making this stuff up again. Y'know Bill, I'm
really starting to worry about any tenuous connection you're still
maintaining with reality - it seems to be slipping away with every
post. Better go get a big dose of reality somewhere quick before you
slip irreversibly into lala land.

Having just watched "The Ring II" (it, like, totally sucked dude), I think
arguing with Bill Baka is like watching that stupid video tape. You know it
will make you nuts, but...

Bill "better you than me, Hickster" S.



You go into the Republican bin, that much is certain.
Bill (Iron Ernest) Baka

Ed Pirrero wrote:
On Feb 9, 2:46 pm, Bill Baka wrote:

Like the Bible is supposed to say is "God helps he who helps himself",

That's not in the Bible.

That's a Calvinist thing - the same Calvinist idea that those that
*have* are blessed, and that those who *have not* have some sort of
character flaw, or are sinful. Also things not supported by
Scripture.

Southern Baptists are pretty highly Calvinist.

E.P.

Oh oh, my secret is out, not religious.
I have been hearing that phrase since I was a little kid.
Back to my Satanic rituals.
Bill Baka

I just know that will send someone into a rant.

Bill Baka wrote:
Joe Fischer wrote:
On Sat, Bill Baka wrote:

..........
With 9 billion people all competing for space and paving
over every thing in sight,

You need to get out more, except for a few places
like close to Manhattan, Los Angeles, Miami, etc., people
often get lost in the woods.

The woods are getting harder to find.

plus deforestation,

There are a lot more trees being planted than
cut down, the big deforestation period was the century
before coal was available at low cost.

I once read that there were woods in the 'now' prairies until settlers
came and 'tamed' the land. One book I read was dated 1911 and titled
"Man's control of the environment" and it was lamenting the loss of
natural primeval patches of forest. An environmental book a hundred
years ago. Who would have thought??

Anyone who knows anything about history. There is a reason for national parks.

Obviously nobody paid attention.

Wrong, most obviously with national parks.

As far as deforestation I was talking about the rain forests and other areas that are having a
population boom. If a few hundred square miles of rain forest are burned do you think planting a
few token trees is going to make a difference?

There's a hell of a lot more than a few token trees being planted.

plus the jet travel, something will have to give.

Because of a lack of affordable energy, not
a lack of space. It was 30 F here this afternoon,
and driving past the cement plant, I turned off the
climate control in my car to prevent the white dust
on the road near the cement plant getting in the car,
and when I turned it back on, the air conditioning
came on for a minute, the sun was warming the
car, but it wasn't noticeable with automatic climate
control.

That makes me wonder, on a cold morning
I set the climate control for 78 F, could that be what
they are talking about on TV, I used to set it at 74.

I really don't think "Global warming" is the issue as much as "Global
smog". People have noticed in wooded areas that where once you could
see forever, now there is a permanent haze in the air, ahh, Globally.

That last is a pig ignorant lie.

It will either be starvation, war, or a
fast spreading new disease, but something WILL happen.

It always has, but the conditions that are a problem
today is almost total reliance on the commercial sector
for space heating, and in cold country, that can be a
big problem at any moment.

A least with a big house, when things get
really cold and there is no electric, oil, or natural gas,
one or two rooms might be enough wood to last
the rest of the winter when it will be warm enough
to start walking south. :-)

You don't need to tell me. I owned a 3,500 square foot house north of
Minneapolis and had 4 different types of heat. Propane, oil, electric
and wood burning stoves. I thought that was overkill until it got down
to 25 below zero and actually need to use 3 out of 4 to keep the house
anywhere near warm. I loved the snow but hated how much I had to spend
to keep it warm. Needless to say I moved back to California. I went
through about 3 cords of wood per month in addition to the rest.
Global what?
Not up there.
I think that it will be globally wild swings in the weather.

More fool you, not a shred of evidence of anything like that.

As far as we humans are concerned, I think that all the business and vacation travel might spread
some really nasty virus world wide.

Its never happened yet and it aint gunna either.

The flu pandemic of 1918 would have killed maybe a billion today since we now have the means to be
anywhere on earth within about 12 hours on a plane.

Fantasy. And we've had a lot worse than that in the past anyway.

Some of those radically changed the way society worked so many ended up dead in western europe.

Nothing to do with global warming either.

On Sun, Bill Baka wrote:

Joe Fischer wrote:
You need to get out more, except for a few places
like close to Manhattan, Los Angeles, Miami, etc., people
often get lost in the woods.

The woods are getting harder to find.

In Los Angeles County, maybe, take a little trip
up to Big Bear or something.

Nobody is cutting down the woods in the US,
in fact, just clearing out the roots of scrub brush takes
heavy equipment, try it some time.

There are a lot more trees being planted than
cut down, the big deforestation period was the century
before coal was available at low cost.

I once read that there were woods in the 'now' prairies until settlers
came and 'tamed' the land. One book I read was dated 1911 and titled
"Man's control of the environment" and it was lamenting the loss of
natural primeval patches of forest. An environmental book a hundred
years ago. Who would have thought?? Obviously nobody paid attention.
As far as deforestation I was talking about the rain forests and other
areas that are having a population boom. If a few hundred square miles
of rain forest are burned do you think planting a few token trees is
going to make a difference?

Essentially all mature trees east of the Mississippi
were cleared for lumber or firewood before coal became
available at just the right time to prevent a catastrophe
in the northeast US.

Didn't you know that trees don't need to be planted,
they drop seeds, and grow everywhere they are not wanted.

I should have cut down that rotten Box Elder tree
before the neighbor tore down the abandoned house next
door, it has cost me $600 fighting Box Elder bugs, and
$900 cleaning roots out of my sewer and replacing part
of it, and I had to do most of the work myself.

Because of a lack of affordable energy, not
a lack of space. It was 30 F here this afternoon,
and driving past the cement plant, I turned off the
climate control in my car to prevent the white dust
on the road near the cement plant getting in the car,
and when I turned it back on, the air conditioning
came on for a minute, the sun was warming the
car, but it wasn't noticeable with automatic climate
control.

That makes me wonder, on a cold morning
I set the climate control for 78 F, could that be what
they are talking about on TV, I used to set it at 74.

I really don't think "Global warming" is the issue as much as "Global
smog". People have noticed in wooded areas that where once you could see
forever, now there is a permanent haze in the air, ahh, Globally.

"People" don't know the difference between
water vapor haze and smog, climb Mount San Antonio
and if you can't see trucks on the freeway going north
from San Bernadino, then chances are it is water vapor.

You don't need to tell me. I owned a 3,500 square foot house north of
Minneapolis and had 4 different types of heat. Propane, oil, electric
and wood burning stoves. I thought that was overkill until it got down
to 25 below zero and actually need to use 3 out of 4 to keep the house
anywhere near warm. I loved the snow but hated how much I had to spend
to keep it warm. Needless to say I moved back to California. I went
through about 3 cords of wood per month in addition to the rest.
Global what?
Not up there.

I didn't think I would complain about the temperatures
this winter, it was mostly a little above normal until two weeks
ago, and it has been 15 to 30 degrees F below normal since,
with at least 10 more days in a row below normal.

I think that it will be globally wild swings in the weather.

It will be difficult to tell most years from any
past years, it is very rare to have a high temperature
record for any date broken any place at all, but much
easier to break low temperature records, that is
something easy to check if the people who are
convinced that anything unusual is going on.

As far as we humans are concerned, I think that all the business and
vacation travel might spread some really nasty virus world wide. The flu
pandemic of 1918 would have killed maybe a billion today since we now
have the means to be anywhere on earth within about 12 hours on a plane.
Bill Baka

A flu virus might be worse than the plagues which
were caused by contaminated water.

1918 may have been bad because there were
lots of soldiers moving around.

But having affordable energy to keep warm and
get enough food helps keep people from getting so sick.

Joe Fischer

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:30:38 -0800, wrote:

On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 20:49:10 -0500, in misc.consumers.frugal-living Joe Fischer
wrote:
In Los Angeles County, maybe, take a little trip
up to Big Bear or something.

Nobody is cutting down the woods in the US,
in fact, just clearing out the roots of scrub brush takes
heavy equipment, try it some time.

Everything has been logged and the logging companies are now reduced to cutting
saplings because what they have done is not sustainable.

Did you read that on an outhouse wall?

There is a 70 foot Pin Oak in my front yard,
it would be wonderful if somebody would just take it,
in fact, there are millions of trees in the US near
homes that the owners would like to get rid of, but
can't afford the $800 and up that it would cost.

Stop hallucinating and design a machine that
will grab a tree, cut it in pieces small enough to haul,
and you can get a lot of free unwanted wood.

I only wish there were not so many Maple seeds
being tracked into my house.

And the tree contractors trimming trees for the
power company are making lots of noise.

Joe Fischer

Joe Fischer wrote:
On Sun, Bill Baka wrote:
Joe Fischer wrote:

You need to get out more, except for a few places
like close to Manhattan, Los Angeles, Miami, etc., people
often get lost in the woods.
The woods are getting harder to find.

In Los Angeles County, maybe, take a little trip
up to Big Bear or something.

Remember the boarder who got lost at Mountain High a few years ago? All
he had to do was keep heading north and he'd eventually hit the road,
but NOOOOOOO! And then there was the woman skier who got lost at Ski
Sunrise and sent her 7-year-old daughter back up for help -- there are
WalMart parking lots bigger than Sunrise, and it has an orange fence all
the way around. Some people can get lost in their own bathtubs.

Nobody is cutting down the woods in the US,
in fact, just clearing out the roots of scrub brush takes
heavy equipment, try it some time.

The amount of burned brush they were hauling away the winter after those
fires was truly impressive, as were the bare burned hills around the
Forest Service station where the road starts to flatten out.

"People" don't know the difference between
water vapor haze and smog, climb Mount San Antonio
and if you can't see trucks on the freeway going north
from San Bernadino, then chances are it is water vapor.

But the purple-brown haze you see coming down from Big Bear in the
afternoon is definitely NOT water vapor.

Mt. San Antonio = Baldy, right?

--
Cheers, Bev
===================================
New sig on order, watch this space.

Poverty is almost always a result of bad choices. People choose to not
work

in school. People choose to have kids when they know they can't afford

them. People choose to drop out of school. People choose to sell drugs to

make a fast buck. People choose to screw up their lives why should I be

FORCED to pay to "fix" their problems?





When I was a kid I attended PS 3 in the Bronx (NYC). In the middle of

second grade my parents scraped together enough money to move us to

Queens, and a better school district. They evaluated me and were going

to place me in the "slow" classes because I was already way behind

reading level. My parents talked them into putting me in the regular

classes and within a few months I was ahead of reading level and going

into the "gifted" classes.



My parents attended an open school night and the principal asked them

just what was going on in that school in the Bronx that I kid like me

was behind reading level. I don't know that they could answer the

question.



That was over 40 years ago. I suspect my life would be very different

if I wasn't lucky enough to get out of PS 3. Your argument that

poverty is almost always a result of bad choices is simplistic. It

takes a very special person to climb out of a crappy environment. It

happens, but lots of good people get stuck.

Of course its simplistic it would take a book to explain it in detail. But
your story actually supports my point. 1) Your parents could have NOT made
the choice to make the effort to improve their lives; 2) they could have
just accepted the fact that you were slow and not tried to push you and 3)
you could have made the choice to accept the slow label and worked down to
that expectation.

My bigger point is that most people living in 'poverty' today in the US are
there because of things they have done themselves. That poor, high school
drop-out, single mother is in that predicament because she chose to have sex
before she was out of school and with a man who felt no need to hang around.
Look and any 'poor' person and the odds are that the reason they are 'poor'
is because they made bad choices.



I don't know the answer. We have a system that benefited enormously

from having a virgin continent to harvest, yet we have staggering

poverty and really awesomely bad schools. They're worse now than my

experience so long ago.

I don't have all the answers but I do know that what we are doing now is
only making things worse. You have a system to "help" them that traps them.
It makes them totally dependent on the system. Which makes them totally
dependent on the government which make it very easy to make them vote to
keep the person in office that keeps giving them money. To me it is worse
then the old slavery system. At least then the slaves knew they were slaves
and wanted to be free.



Providing money for doing nothing doesn't seem to work. Letting people

starve or be homeless isn't something I can stand either. I'll just

repeat that I don't know the answer.

Personally I think we need to go back to the 1930's plans of you work for
your money. If you want government money then you will be doing some of the
hardest, most disgusting jobs out there. Why are paying government workers
to mow the right-of-ways AND paying people to sit around the house watching
TV? Put the bums out there with hand tools cutting the weeds. If they don't
like then they can find a better job.