The Great Don Quijote of RBM!

"still me" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Aug 2007 08:25:43 -0500, "Keats" wrote:

By far most of the Gutmo Bay (great name still me) enemy combatant
detainees
have been released or sent back to their countries of origin. What's left
is about 200 of the worst of the worst.

Then try the other 200. They've been ther long enough.

Two hundred Moussaoui like farce trials would be a real hoot, but we
hardly
have the time, money, or patience for it.

Different circumstances, different trial. But, the fact remains. They
are entitled to due process. If their guilty, hang 'em, if not, send
them home.


If anything, each of the 200 unlawful enemy combatant trials would be more
difficult than Moussaoui's trail, which, by the way, took over four years to
get started with a cost of tens of millions dollars. How do the unlawful
enemy combatants get due process in our domestic courts when they were
caputured on foreign soil, weren't read their rights, or properly arrested,
or served with search or arrest warrents, and aren't citizens. Your idea to
try them, hang them if guilty, or send them home if not quilty seems naive.

The legal status of unlawful enemy combatants and their treatment needs to
be resolved so that everyone will have a clear understanding in as much as
were are going to be dealing with Islamic jihad for years to come. Let's
set the ground rules and stop the whining.


So it seems to me the best
course would be to keep the detainee community together and resettle them
in
the USA to start their new lives. We need to identify a nice liberal
community where the diversity the detainees bring to the community would
be
celebrated by the residents. Where did you say you lived?


I take it you didn't really go for my suggestion to resettle these unlawful
enemy jihadists in your community.


Sorry my friend, but you've read me wrong. The fact that I don't like
the recent Republican party, and that I believe in a strong
Constitution and a stronger Bill of Rights, doesn't make me a liberal.
It makes me a conservative. But, you're too neo-con to know that.
Unless you want to brand the Founding Fathers as liberals. Then I will
proudly stand beside them.



I trust the founding fathers would have some ideas about the differences
between domestic criminals and non-citizens who are unlawful Islamic enemy
jihad combatants captured on foreign soil.

(not Tom) Keats

"A Muzi" wrote
No expert, but I keep a copy on my desk. Where's that section on
out-of-uniform enemy combatants overseas and their 'rights' under the
American Constitution again??
hint: Why does Geneva require uniforms, chain of command etc for
definition of POWs?

Clive George wrote:
Ok, so they aren't POWs. Which means they must be normal prisoners, and
should be treated as such - with the normal trial, etc. And this should
be done by somebody with juristiction in the area.

If they're not covered by the American Constitution, why are the
Americans holding them?

Some might say it's an ad hoc and still-evolving solution to vicious and
feral attacks based on an asymmetry which exploits the freedoms of an
advanced civilization against itself. Not citizens. Not soldiers. No
clear prior examples to follow.

Others feel the power, wealth and blood of the nation are being spent to
unfairly exploit a couple hundred innocent 'just walking by' victims at
Guantanamo.

I'm reminded of Norman Mailer, who 'discovered' a violent felon with
supposed writing skills. After Mailer got him out from under the jury's
sentence, the 'poor soul' sliced a waiter to death with a knife in NYC.
I think the taxpaying waiter's rights were abridged but, hey, people's
viewpoints differ.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"A Muzi" wrote in message
...
"A Muzi" wrote
No expert, but I keep a copy on my desk. Where's that section on
out-of-uniform enemy combatants overseas and their 'rights' under the
American Constitution again??
hint: Why does Geneva require uniforms, chain of command etc for
definition of POWs?

Clive George wrote:
Ok, so they aren't POWs. Which means they must be normal prisoners, and
should be treated as such - with the normal trial, etc. And this should
be done by somebody with juristiction in the area.

If they're not covered by the American Constitution, why are the
Americans holding them?

Some might say it's an ad hoc and still-evolving solution to vicious and
feral attacks based on an asymmetry which exploits the freedoms of an
advanced civilization against itself. Not citizens. Not soldiers. No clear
prior examples to follow.

No clear example being set either - no shining beacon for people to be proud
of and for the world to follow. Sure, it's only a couple of hundred people.
But it's a couple of hundred examples for the folk who are going to see the
US as an evil country, and who do rather more than write tetchy emails about
it.

I'm reminded of Norman Mailer, who 'discovered' a violent felon with
supposed writing skills. After Mailer got him out from under the jury's
sentence, the 'poor soul' sliced a waiter to death with a knife in NYC. I
think the taxpaying waiter's rights were abridged but, hey, people's
viewpoints differ.

"Courts release felon shock". It's not exactly an isolated case, is it?
People reoffend when they get out of prison, people get let off on
technicalities, people don't get charged in the first case. (Income tax
evasion the best they could come up with for a certain famous person?)

There is one important difference : said violent felon didn't have many more
people being inspired to attack the US because of his treatment.

And I'm prepared to put up with the problems that arise from eg assumption
of innocence, trial by jury, due process, as the alternatives are far
worse - police state, etc.

(Did you know that your fine country won't give people a visa waiver if
they've ever been arrested? Not charged, not found guilty, but arrested -
which can legitimately happen on the uncorroborated word of one person.)

clive

It's my contention here that a very modern trend is rooted in a very
primitive behavior: MONKEY SEE MONKEY DO. Yeap, those who got money
and power (the top monkeys) ride big shiny SUVs, so the rest of the
troop quickly learns the trick. IF YOU WANT TO STAND OUT AND SURVIVE
IN THE JUNGLE YOU BETTER HAVE AN SUV. The hope, however, is that we
can turn around that bad behavior by changing those monkeys at the top
--or simply changing their behavior-- so the other monkeys would
follow...


(THE HUNDREDTH MONKEY BY KEN KEYES, JR.)

This book does not deal with petty matters.

It tells how to operate our lives - and our world.

It tells us how to stay alive!

The mess we've brought upon ourselves is a most perilous and
challenging one.

The broad picture pieced together here will show you the immensity of
the nuclear dangers, the futility of any defense or protection, the
power of the new awareness and your role in the unfolding drama.

There is a phenomenon I'd like to tell you about.

In it may lie our only hope of a future for our species.

Here is the story of the Hundredth Monkey:

The Japanese monkey, Macaca fuscata, has been observed in the wild for
a period of over 30 years.

In 1952, on the island of Koshima scientists were providing monkeys
with sweet potatoes dropped in the sand. The monkeys liked the taste
of the raw sweet potatoes, but they found the dirt unpleasant.

An 18-month-old female named Imo found she could solve the problem in
a nearby stream. She taught this trick to her mother. Her playmates
also learned this new way and they taught their mothers, too.

This cultural innovation was gradually picked up by various monkeys
before the eyes of the scientists.

Between 1952 and 1958, all the young monkeys learned to wash the sandy
sweet potatoes to make them more palatable.

Only the adults who imitated their children learned this social
improvement. Other adults kept eating the dirty sweet potatoes.

Then something startling took place. In the autumn of 1958, a certain
number of Koshima monkeys were washing sweet potatoes - the exact
number is not known.

Let us suppose that when the sun rose one morning there were 99
monkeys on Koshima Island who had learned to wash their sweet
potatoes.

Let's further suppose that later that morning, the hundredth monkey
learned to wash potatoes.

THEN IT HAPPENED!

By that evening almost everyone in the tribe was washing sweet
potatoes before eating them.

The added energy of this hundredth monkey somehow created an
ideological breakthrough!

But notice.

A most surprising thing observed by these scientists was that the
habit of washing sweet potatoes then jumped over the sea -

Colonies of monkeys on other islands and the mainland troop of monkeys
at Takasakiyama began washing their sweet potatoes!*

(*Lifetide by Lyall Watson, pp. 147-148. Bantam Books 1980. This book
gives other fascinating details.)

Thus, when a certain critical number achieves an awareness, this new
awareness may be communicated from mind to mind.

Although the exact number may very, the Hundredth Monkey Phenomenon
means that when only a limited number of people know of a new way, it
may remain the consciousness property of these people.

But there is a point at which if only one more person tunes-in to a
new awareness, a field is strengthened so that this awareness is
picked up by almost everyone!

Your awareness is needed in saving the world from nuclear war.

You may be the "Hundredth Monkey" . . . .

http://secretthink.blog-city.com/fro...eir_lesson.htm

Response to donquijote1954:
A most surprising thing observed by these scientists was that the
habit of washing sweet potatoes then jumped over the sea -

Colonies of monkeys on other islands and the mainland troop of monkeys
at Takasakiyama began washing their sweet potatoes!*

(*Lifetide by Lyall Watson, pp. 147-148. Bantam Books 1980. This book
gives other fascinating details.)


Erm, but it's a myth: Lyall Watson made it up.

Google for it, if you can be bothered.


--
Mark, UK
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open
sewer and die."

"Mark McNeill" wrote in message
...
Response to donquijote1954:
A most surprising thing observed by these scientists was that the
habit of washing sweet potatoes then jumped over the sea -

Colonies of monkeys on other islands and the mainland troop of monkeys
at Takasakiyama began washing their sweet potatoes!*

(*Lifetide by Lyall Watson, pp. 147-148. Bantam Books 1980. This book
gives other fascinating details.)


Erm, but it's a myth: Lyall Watson made it up.

Google for it, if you can be bothered.


--

Whew! That's a relief. I was getting all concerned about Mahmoud
Ahmadinejad being the 100th Hitler.

(not Tom) Keats

On Aug 5, 1:03 pm, Ken the Troll wrote:
Unfortunately we have a President who rides a bicycle, but its a
mountain bike, which are ridden by people with a "macho" complex who
are more interested in tearing up the environment than protecting it.
He seems to prefer being hauled up to the top of a big hill and then
coasts his way down, much as he seems to have done in college and in
the university, and then calls that getting his exercise.

If you want a better President next time you have to 1) contribute to
those candidates that hold the same values as you do, 2) volunteer to
work on their local campaign staff and then try to influence you
neighbors, 3) vote in the primary or attend your caucus, 4) become a
delegate to the national convention of your party [I hope the hell it
isn't Republican - after 16 years of living under a Rethug government
in Michigan], 5) continue to campaign and contribute to the candidate
who is closest to your point of view, 6) vote early and then work with
your candidate's committee to get out the vote. If you don't do this
then don't complain about the people who get elected.

I only vote for candidates who have a record of supporting cycling
friendly bills and programs while they had office. We can bitch all we
want of newsgroups like this, but unless we get active and elect
people who support our causes we will continue to get "Bike Route"
signs instead of designated bike lanes, paths, etc. and we will
continue to see our brothers and sisters killed by "distracted" ( -
"sun blinded" or what ever other excuse used to excuse the drivers who
use their two to six ton gas pigs to kill us) drivers.

As Pogo used to say "We have met the enemy and it is us!"

Ken the Troll (living below - South - of the Mighty Mackinaw Bridge)

If the president's riding skills are the same as his speaking skills,
I certainly don't want to ride near him.

"donquijote1954" wrote in message
ps.com...
It's my contention here that a very modern trend is rooted in a very
primitive behavior: MONKEY SEE MONKEY DO. Yeap, those who got money
and power (the top monkeys) ride big shiny SUVs, so the rest of the
troop quickly learns the trick. IF YOU WANT TO STAND OUT AND SURVIVE
IN THE JUNGLE YOU BETTER HAVE AN SUV. The hope, however, is that we
can turn around that bad behavior by changing those monkeys at the top
--or simply changing their behavior-- so the other monkeys would
follow...


(THE HUNDREDTH MONKEY BY KEN KEYES, JR.)

This book does not deal with petty matters.

It tells how to operate our lives - and our world.

It tells us how to stay alive!

The mess we've brought upon ourselves is a most perilous and
challenging one.

The broad picture pieced together here will show you the immensity of
the nuclear dangers, the futility of any defense or protection, the
power of the new awareness and your role in the unfolding drama.

There is a phenomenon I'd like to tell you about.

In it may lie our only hope of a future for our species.

Here is the story of the Hundredth Monkey:

The Japanese monkey, Macaca fuscata, has been observed in the wild for
a period of over 30 years.

In 1952, on the island of Koshima scientists were providing monkeys
with sweet potatoes dropped in the sand. The monkeys liked the taste
of the raw sweet potatoes, but they found the dirt unpleasant.

An 18-month-old female named Imo found she could solve the problem in
a nearby stream. She taught this trick to her mother. Her playmates
also learned this new way and they taught their mothers, too.

This cultural innovation was gradually picked up by various monkeys
before the eyes of the scientists.

Between 1952 and 1958, all the young monkeys learned to wash the sandy
sweet potatoes to make them more palatable.

Only the adults who imitated their children learned this social
improvement. Other adults kept eating the dirty sweet potatoes.

Then something startling took place. In the autumn of 1958, a certain
number of Koshima monkeys were washing sweet potatoes - the exact
number is not known.

Let us suppose that when the sun rose one morning there were 99
monkeys on Koshima Island who had learned to wash their sweet
potatoes.

Let's further suppose that later that morning, the hundredth monkey
learned to wash potatoes.

THEN IT HAPPENED!

By that evening almost everyone in the tribe was washing sweet
potatoes before eating them.

The added energy of this hundredth monkey somehow created an
ideological breakthrough!

But notice.

A most surprising thing observed by these scientists was that the
habit of washing sweet potatoes then jumped over the sea -

Colonies of monkeys on other islands and the mainland troop of monkeys
at Takasakiyama began washing their sweet potatoes!*

(*Lifetide by Lyall Watson, pp. 147-148. Bantam Books 1980. This book
gives other fascinating details.)

Thus, when a certain critical number achieves an awareness, this new
awareness may be communicated from mind to mind.

Although the exact number may very, the Hundredth Monkey Phenomenon
means that when only a limited number of people know of a new way, it
may remain the consciousness property of these people.

But there is a point at which if only one more person tunes-in to a
new awareness, a field is strengthened so that this awareness is
picked up by almost everyone!

Your awareness is needed in saving the world from nuclear war.

You may be the "Hundredth Monkey" . . . .

http://secretthink.blog-city.com/fro...eir_lesson.htm



I can assure you there's a better life out there if you would get rid of
this obsession you have.

(Not Tom) Keats wrote:
...
If anything, each of the 200 unlawful enemy combatant trials would be more
difficult than Moussaoui's trail, which, by the way, took over four years to
get started with a cost of tens of millions dollars....

What is that, a couple days profit on no-bid Iraqi "rebuilding" contracts?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Tim McNamara wrote:

And that is exactly the point. The Bush Administration has overturned
the principle of rule of law and is in violation of its oath to uphold
and defend the Constitution.

butbutbut, George W. DID NOT [1] get a blow job from an intern!

[1] To the best available knowledge.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com