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Bicycle Frame Stiffness



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 7th 10, 05:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
bicycle_disciple
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Posts: 247
Default Bicycle Frame Stiffness

It was interesting to note that some of the top end road bikes today
are posting 120 N/mm of bottom bracket stiffness and 90 Nm/degree of
headtube torsional stiffness while fork stiffness is way at at almost
200 Nm/degree. Some of the priciest wheels money can buy, such as
Lightweight Standard, are posting between 90-100 Nm/degree for
stiffness. More here : http://bit.ly/7rOYYT

Obviously, there's no point in getting worked up about stiffness
ratings alone, as there are lots more that gives a bike character.
What according to you mostly contributes to making a good bike? When
does stiffness really matter? In 100 years of bicycle history, lots of
Tour de France level racers have gone by for a long time with"flexy"
steel frames, even broken records (Eddy Merckx...etc.).

-Ron
Ads
  #2  
Old January 7th 10, 07:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sandy
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Posts: 564
Default Bicycle Frame Stiffness

On 07-Jan-10 10:06, bicycle_disciple a bien réfléchi et puis a déclaré...:
It was interesting to note that some of the top end road bikes today
are posting 120 N/mm of bottom bracket stiffness and 90 Nm/degree of
headtube torsional stiffness while fork stiffness is way at at almost
200 Nm/degree. Some of the priciest wheels money can buy, such as
Lightweight Standard, are posting between 90-100 Nm/degree for
stiffness. More here : http://bit.ly/7rOYYT

Obviously, there's no point in getting worked up about stiffness
ratings alone, as there are lots more that gives a bike character.
What according to you mostly contributes to making a good bike? When
does stiffness really matter? In 100 years of bicycle history, lots of
Tour de France level racers have gone by for a long time with"flexy"
steel frames, even broken records (Eddy Merckx...etc.).

-Ron


1 - the color red
2 - a spoking pattern to hold playing cards
3 - magnesium alloy kickstand
4 - came in a box with an aluminum hex key
5 - the price is a variant of $XXXXX.97
6 - reverse gear
7 - stiff but flexible
8 - non-oval wheels
9 - both air-horn and bell
10 - exotic, macho, unpronounceable brand and model names.

No, I did not insist on a saddle. That's a dealer option.


--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
--
C'est le contraire du vélo, la bicyclette.
Une silhouette profilée mauve fluo dévale
à soixante-dix à l'heure : c'est du vélo.
Deux lycéennes côte à côte traversent
un pont à Bruges : c'est de la bicyclette.
-Delerm, P.

  #3  
Old January 7th 10, 07:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
bicycle_disciple
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 247
Default Bicycle Frame Stiffness

On Jan 7, 1:01*pm, Sandy wrote:
1 - the color red
2 - a spoking pattern to hold playing cards
3 - magnesium alloy kickstand
4 - came in a box with an aluminum hex key
5 - the price is a variant of $XXXXX.97
6 - reverse gear
7 - stiff but flexible
8 - non-oval wheels
9 - both air-horn and bell
10 - exotic, macho, unpronounceable brand and model names.

No, I did not insist on a saddle. That's a dealer option.

--
Sandy


Ha. That's great!. Did you forget pie plates?

-Ron
  #4  
Old January 7th 10, 09:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected][_2_]
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Posts: 1,594
Default Bicycle Frame Stiffness

On Jan 7, 9:06*am, bicycle_disciple wrote:
It was interesting to note that some of the top end road bikes today
are posting 120 N/mm of bottom bracket stiffness and 90 Nm/degree of
headtube torsional stiffness while fork stiffness is way at at almost
200 Nm/degree.


Are this values signifying the stuff to be very stiff or not very
stiff.
  #6  
Old January 7th 10, 11:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ron
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Posts: 7
Default Bicycle Frame Stiffness

On Jan 7, 4:44*pm, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 7-1-2010 21:55, schreef:

On Jan 7, 9:06 am, *wrote:
It was interesting to note that some of the top end road bikes today
are posting 120 N/mm of bottom bracket stiffness and 90 Nm/degree of
headtube torsional stiffness while fork stiffness is way at at almost
200 Nm/degree.


Are this values signifying the stuff to be very stiff or not very
stiff.


That's stiff considering that that frame (Canyon Ultimate CF SLX) weigh
less then 900 gr and the fork less than 300 gr.

Lou


Yes, this is high amount of stiffness , I suppose. The interesting
thing to note is that very expensive, German bikes are being rated
most favorably. This coming from a German test magazine makes you
wonder what the real intent is behind the initiatives.

-Ron
  #7  
Old January 8th 10, 04:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Peter S.
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Posts: 112
Default Bicycle Frame Stiffness

On 7 Jan., 23:48, Ron wrote:

Yes, this is high amount of stiffness , I suppose. The interesting
thing to note is that very expensive, German bikes are being rated
most favorably. This coming from a German test magazine makes you
wonder what the real intent is behind the initiatives.


I don't think it is a just matter of national preferences that German
bicycles do well in German bike magazine tests ; Germans and
Scandinavians are on average just built bigger than Italians, so many
Germans found standard Italian frames too flexy for their liking. This
created a demand for frames with stiffer bottom bracket areas, so
German frame makers started to produce stiffer frames. This again made
bicycle magazines test the stiffness of the frame, reinforcing the
ideal, that a good bike had a high BB stiffness. Since the German bike
market is heavily influenced by systematic tests from leading bicycle
magazine, this again made the German frame makers make ever increasing
stiffer frames (or have the highest stiffness to weight ratio) in
order to well in these tests. So it really isn't so surprising that
German bikes do well in frame stiffness tests.

When Jens Voight joined team CSC he found the Cervelo frames way too
soft and asked for, surprise, much higher BB-stiffness. They seem to
have listened, because Cervelo bikes now have a very high BB-stiffness-
to-weight ratio. The Cervelo R3 SL won the German Tour Magazine mega
carbon bike test in 2008, http://www.cervelo.com/reviews/Tour_Cover.jpg
not because it is German, not because it is Canadian, but because it
it has properties that the German bike market (and therefore Tour
Magazine) appreciate; high BB-stiffness while still being comfortable
etc.

--
Regards
  #8  
Old January 8th 10, 01:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lou Holtman[_3_]
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Posts: 881
Default Bicycle Frame Stiffness

Op 8-1-2010 4:14, Peter S. schreef:
On 7 Jan., 23:48, wrote:

Yes, this is high amount of stiffness , I suppose. The interesting
thing to note is that very expensive, German bikes are being rated
most favorably. This coming from a German test magazine makes you
wonder what the real intent is behind the initiatives.


I don't think it is a just matter of national preferences that German
bicycles do well in German bike magazine tests ; Germans and
Scandinavians are on average just built bigger than Italians, so many
Germans found standard Italian frames too flexy for their liking. This
created a demand for frames with stiffer bottom bracket areas, so
German frame makers started to produce stiffer frames. This again made
bicycle magazines test the stiffness of the frame, reinforcing the
ideal, that a good bike had a high BB stiffness. Since the German bike
market is heavily influenced by systematic tests from leading bicycle
magazine, this again made the German frame makers make ever increasing
stiffer frames (or have the highest stiffness to weight ratio) in
order to well in these tests. So it really isn't so surprising that
German bikes do well in frame stiffness tests.

When Jens Voight joined team CSC he found the Cervelo frames way too
soft and asked for, surprise, much higher BB-stiffness. They seem to
have listened, because Cervelo bikes now have a very high BB-stiffness-
to-weight ratio. The Cervelo R3 SL won the German Tour Magazine mega
carbon bike test in 2008, http://www.cervelo.com/reviews/Tour_Cover.jpg
not because it is German, not because it is Canadian, but because it
it has properties that the German bike market (and therefore Tour
Magazine) appreciate; high BB-stiffness while still being comfortable
etc.

--
Regards



Agreed. German Bicycle magazine (TOUR eg) have an opinion what they
think is important in a frame. They are very open in how they test and
how they rate the different properties of a frame/bike. German bicycle
manufacturers try to comply to that. If you don't agree with that no
problem by all means buy a 'mysterious' Italian bike like Pinarello,
DeRosa, Colnago or Wlllier but you have to pay 2000-3000 euro more for
those. If you look at the 'winner' of the test the Canyon CF SLX ETE201
it costs 6000 euro. Although a lot of money but compared to A brand
Italian bike with comparable specs a hell of a deal. The frameset of the
Canyon costs 1800 euro (if you have a license 1500 euro) including fork,
headset, stem and seatpost. Almost half the price of the Pinarello
Prince, DeRosa King or Colnago CX1 framesets.
The Germans understand that and Canyon, Red Bull, Stevens, Cube etc are
very succesfull.

Lou
  #9  
Old January 8th 10, 11:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Bicycle Frame Stiffness

On Jan 8, 12:09*pm, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 8-1-2010 4:14, Peter S. schreef:





On 7 Jan., 23:48, *wrote:


Yes, this is high amount of stiffness , I suppose. The interesting
thing to note is that very expensive, German bikes are being rated
most favorably. This coming from a German test magazine makes you
wonder what the real intent is behind the initiatives.


I don't think it is a just matter of national preferences that German
bicycles do well in German bike magazine tests ; Germans and
Scandinavians are on average just built bigger than Italians, so many
Germans found standard Italian frames too flexy for their liking. This
created a demand for frames with stiffer bottom bracket areas, so
German frame makers started to produce stiffer frames. This again made
bicycle magazines test the stiffness of the frame, reinforcing the
ideal, that a good bike had a high BB stiffness. Since the German bike
market is heavily influenced by systematic tests from leading bicycle
magazine, this again made the German frame makers make ever increasing
stiffer frames (or have the highest stiffness to weight ratio) in
order to well in these tests. So it really isn't so surprising that
German bikes do well in frame stiffness tests.


When Jens Voight joined team CSC he found the Cervelo frames way too
soft and asked for, surprise, much higher BB-stiffness. They seem to
have listened, because Cervelo bikes now have a very high BB-stiffness-
to-weight ratio. The Cervelo R3 SL won the German Tour Magazine mega
carbon bike test in 2008,http://www.cervelo.com/reviews/Tour_Cover.jpg
not because it is German, not because it is Canadian, but because it
it has properties that the German bike market (and therefore Tour
Magazine) appreciate; high BB-stiffness while still being comfortable
etc.


--
Regards


Agreed. German Bicycle magazine (TOUR eg) have an opinion what they
think is important in a frame. They are very open in how they test and
how they rate the different properties of a frame/bike. German bicycle
manufacturers try to comply to that. If you don't agree with that no
problem by all means buy a 'mysterious' Italian bike like Pinarello,
DeRosa, Colnago or Wlllier but you have to pay 2000-3000 euro more for
those. If you look at the 'winner' of the test the Canyon CF SLX ETE201
it costs 6000 euro. Although a lot of money but compared to A brand
Italian bike with comparable specs a hell of a deal. The frameset of the
Canyon costs 1800 euro (if you have a license 1500 euro) including fork,
headset, stem and seatpost. Almost half the price of the Pinarello
Prince, DeRosa King or Colnago CX1 framesets.
The Germans understand that and Canyon, Red Bull, Stevens, Cube etc are
very succesfull.

Lou


The Germans and the Dutch have a talent for doing the job right. -- AJ
  #10  
Old January 9th 10, 06:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected][_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,594
Default Bicycle Frame Stiffness

On Jan 7, 8:14*pm, "Peter S." wrote:
On 7 Jan., 23:48, Ron wrote:

Yes, this is high amount of stiffness , I suppose. The interesting
thing to note is that very expensive, German bikes are being rated
most favorably. This coming from a German test magazine makes you
wonder what the real intent is behind the initiatives.


I don't think it is a just matter of national preferences that German
bicycles do well in German bike magazine tests ; Germans and
Scandinavians are on average just built bigger than Italians, so many
Germans found standard Italian frames too flexy for their liking. This
created a demand for frames with stiffer bottom bracket areas, so
German frame makers started to produce stiffer frames. This again made
bicycle magazines test the stiffness of the frame, reinforcing the
ideal, that a good bike had a high BB stiffness. Since the German bike
market is heavily influenced by systematic tests from leading bicycle
magazine, this again made the German frame makers make ever increasing
stiffer frames (or have the highest stiffness to weight ratio) in
order to well in these tests. So it really isn't so surprising that
German bikes do well in frame stiffness tests.

When Jens Voight joined team CSC he found the Cervelo frames way too
soft and asked for, surprise, much higher BB-stiffness. They seem to
have listened, because Cervelo bikes now have a very high BB-stiffness-
to-weight ratio. The Cervelo R3 SL won the German Tour Magazine mega
carbon bike test in 2008,http://www.cervelo.com/reviews/Tour_Cover.jpg
not because it is German, not because it is Canadian, but because it
it has properties that the German bike market (and therefore Tour
Magazine) appreciate; high BB-stiffness while still being comfortable
etc.

--
Regards


Interesting. I have a Taiwanese steel bike. A 91 Specialized lugged
made with something like Tange Prestige. I am a 190ish fat cow with an
ungracefully heavy pedal stroke. My bike seems to be stiff enough for
me to go forward in the direction that I like. I don't know how stiff
it is, but I doubt that it is any stiffer than a CF bike. Granted that
when I get on a CF bike they seem to respond faster when I push down
the pedal hard. However, I wouldn't know if this would translate into
faster riding. I have never ridden a CF bike for more than a few turns
around the parking lot. Yet, they seem to have a different feel from
mine. I had an aluminum frame for a while. I didn't like it. One of my
regular rides includes a road with that unfinished pavement. The
aluminum bike was very harsh on that section. I never thought that a
frame would make a difference until I rode that Al bike. I switched
all the components to the Specialized frame and sold the Al bike on
ebay. I am a happy rider now, even though my steed weighs 28 lbs when
loaded with two H2O bottles a seat bag with tools and some gummy
bears. One of these days I'll order one of the chinese CF frames on
ebay for $350 that are getting very popular now.
 




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