Red light cameras?

On 4/22/2011 1:23 PM, N8N wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:18 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 4/22/2011 9:57 AM, N8N wrote:





On Apr 21, 9:44 pm, Frank wrote:
Who's in favor of red light cameras? Who's against?

Do you think a cycling organization should come out in favor of them?

This is a serious question, not a troll. I know a cycling
organization whose officers are trying to decide.

- Frank Krygowski

Definitely against, just because of the widespread practice of using
them at intersections with improperly timed yellow lights instead of
fixing the timing.

Implementations like VA where MUTCD-compliant light timing is required
for a RLC installation I don't have a real problem with, but I don't
know that they really accomplish much in those cases. But I'm not
opposed to that specific implementation if some jurisdiction wants to
try.

nate

It would be nice if a court would set a precedent by throwing out all
the citations where the yellow light duration was too short.

That has on occasion happened, but requires someone to do their
homework and challenge their ticket. When simple engineering
oversight should have prevented the situation in the first place.

nate

Political decisions unfortunately override sound engineering.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On Apr 22, 1:18*pm, Chalo wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:

Frank Krygowski wrote:

Who's in favor of red light cameras? *Who's against?

Do you think a cycling organization should come out in favor of them?

This is a serious question, not a troll. *I know a cycling
organization whose officers are trying to decide.

Yes, no-brainer.

It's not a no-brainer. *Red light cameras are the work of folks like
Lockheed-Martin, and they demonstrate "increased enforcement" by
dramatically shortening the yellow light duration at the time of
installation. *It's cheating, but it's standard practice for the folks
who do this.

The corporate businesses who install these split the proceeds with the
municipalities, essentially privatizing civil fines. *That's also
cheating, and SOP.

I wish car drivers were better behaved, and I wish they were more
accountable when they cause harm, but red light cameras as applied are
a scam no city should have any part of.

Chalo

WHERE does your information come from ?

On Apr 22, 10:57*am, N8N wrote:
On Apr 21, 9:44*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Who's in favor of red light cameras? *Who's against?

Do you think a cycling organization should come out in favor of them?

This is a serious question, not a troll. *I know a cycling
organization whose officers are trying to decide.

- Frank Krygowski

Definitely against, just because of the widespread practice of using
them at intersections with improperly timed yellow lights instead of
fixing the timing.

Implementations like VA where MUTCD-compliant light timing is required
for a RLC installation I don't have a real problem with, but I don't
know that they really accomplish much in those cases. *But I'm not
opposed to that specific implementation if some jurisdiction wants to
try.

Does anyone here know the rules for yellow light timing?

I'd guess it would be based on time required to stop from the speed
limit, at a given moderate deceleration, plus reaction time. I'd
guess it would be in some standard in the form of a table or graph.
But I don't know. Anyone?

- Frank Krygowski

On Apr 22, 4:44*pm, kolldata wrote:
On Apr 22, 1:18*pm, Chalo wrote:



Peter Cole wrote:

Frank Krygowski wrote:

Who's in favor of red light cameras? *Who's against?

Do you think a cycling organization should come out in favor of them?

This is a serious question, not a troll. *I know a cycling
organization whose officers are trying to decide.

Yes, no-brainer.

It's not a no-brainer. *Red light cameras are the work of folks like
Lockheed-Martin, and they demonstrate "increased enforcement" by
dramatically shortening the yellow light duration at the time of
installation. *It's cheating, but it's standard practice for the folks
who do this.

The corporate businesses who install these split the proceeds with the
municipalities, essentially privatizing civil fines. *That's also
cheating, and SOP.

I wish car drivers were better behaved, and I wish they were more
accountable when they cause harm, but red light cameras as applied are
a scam no city should have any part of.

Chalo

WHERE does your information come from ?

WHERE does your information come from ?

See the below 2 links.

Red Light Cameras aren't an all rosy or should I say red, green,
yellow picture.
In these financial troubled times many government jurisdictions might
be & have been tempted to use them as a means of generating revenue.
Before blankly saying U like them as a bicyclist, U might want to give
it a little more study.
For a somewhat balanced view of the situation take a look he
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=292547&page=1

For a down & dirty look @ all the little things that can & do go wrong
w/ the RLCs, have a look he
http://www.highwayrobbery.net/redlig...siteindex.html

As both a bicyclist, a motorists, & fair minded (@least I like to
think so) citizen, I don't like them. As a cyclist when starting out
on a new green light, I always good look to the left for any cars that
might be running their red light. Then I take an even better look to
the right for potential red light runners. Why an even more careful
look to the right? Because there are usually cars left of me going the
same direction & would give some protection from a red light runner.
To the right I don't have such protection.
If approaching an already green light, I don't pay as much attention
to cross traffic, I'm more concerned w/ right & left turning drivers
on the same street that I'm on, & once traffic has established it's
self in the 2 directions parallel to my direction, I feel I'm less
likely to be hit by a red light runner.
It's an entirely different matter when there is no heavy flow/
stoppage in any direction, & I have to be on the alert for traffic
from any direction. I rely on the technique that has kept me
relatively safe for over 50 yrs of driving & bicycling. I use my
peripheral & direct vision to detect motion coming toward me or into
my path. I can't emphasize how important it is to scan for motion
coming in my direction & not allow myself to focus my attention on any
one object.

I really don't like RLCs just for the specter of likely corruption
they provide. Of course we all know that no governmental agency has
ever used unfair tactics to increase revenue.

My 2¢ worth, JD

On Apr 22, 5:20*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Apr 22, 10:57*am, N8N wrote:



On Apr 21, 9:44*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Who's in favor of red light cameras? *Who's against?

Do you think a cycling organization should come out in favor of them?

This is a serious question, not a troll. *I know a cycling
organization whose officers are trying to decide.

- Frank Krygowski

Definitely against, just because of the widespread practice of using
them at intersections with improperly timed yellow lights instead of
fixing the timing.

Implementations like VA where MUTCD-compliant light timing is required
for a RLC installation I don't have a real problem with, but I don't
know that they really accomplish much in those cases. *But I'm not
opposed to that specific implementation if some jurisdiction wants to
try.

Does anyone here know the rules for yellow light timing?

I'd guess it would be based on time required to stop from the speed
limit, at a given moderate deceleration, plus reaction time. *I'd
guess it would be in some standard in the form of a table or graph.
But I don't know. *Anyone?

- Frank Krygowski

Yes, here in sunny??? California there is such a code, but it's often
abused, plus there
are numerious situations that can derail justice. See below link which
I also referenced
in my 1st response to your question:
http://www.highwayrobbery.net/redlig...siteindex.html

Per Tºm Shermªn™ °_° ":
It would be nice if a court would set a precedent by throwing out all
the citations where the yellow light duration was too short.

It wouldn't be our local traffic court - where the magistrate
seems to get a cut of the fines.
--
PeteCresswell

On Apr 22, 12:16*pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 4/22/2011 7:00 AM, raamman wrote:

from peopple following too closly behind and/or not paying complete
attention, especially during rush hours so I try to avoid hard stops;
but then this does subject me to a red light camera without regard to
the circumstances involved. I always pay attention to my surroundings,

The companies that install the cameras usually do it at no cost in
return for a cut of citation revenue. *Therefore, the length of the
yellow light is often shortened to generate more revenue.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

And the companies make 50% of the revenue.

That's pure greed, not a public service.

Andy

On 4/22/2011 2:18 PM, Chalo wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:

Frank Krygowski wrote:

Who's in favor of red light cameras? Who's against?

Do you think a cycling organization should come out in favor of them?

This is a serious question, not a troll. I know a cycling
organization whose officers are trying to decide.

Yes, no-brainer.

It's not a no-brainer. Red light cameras are the work of folks like
Lockheed-Martin, and they demonstrate "increased enforcement" by
dramatically shortening the yellow light duration at the time of
installation. It's cheating, but it's standard practice for the folks
who do this.

The corporate businesses who install these split the proceeds with the
municipalities, essentially privatizing civil fines. That's also
cheating, and SOP.

I wish car drivers were better behaved, and I wish they were more
accountable when they cause harm, but red light cameras as applied are
a scam no city should have any part of.

Chalo

I have no experience with them since we don't have them (yet?). I wasn't
aware that it was a form of privatized law enforcement, that's a deal
breaker in my opinion. Add for-profit policing to my list of bad ideas.

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:20:17 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

Does anyone here know the rules for yellow light timing?

I'd guess it would be based on time required to stop from the speed
limit, at a given moderate deceleration, plus reaction time. I'd
guess it would be in some standard in the form of a table or graph.
But I don't know. Anyone?

I found this:
http://copradar.com/redlight/#rtime
http://copradar.com/redlight/#tyfm
which might help.

We have a local traffic camera in Capitola where the yellow light is
only 2.0 seconds. It's intentional to generate more revenue. The
intersection is about 50ft wide and a 30 mph (44 ft/sec) speed limit.
If someone enters the intersection driving the speed limit exactly
when the light goes yellow, they can usually make it out of the
intersection before the camera goes off. However, if they're making a
turn into this intersection, the path length can be as much as 100ft,
or 12 ft short of making it out of the intersection in under 2.0
seconds. I've pointed this out to the local constabulary, who pretend
not to understand the calculations, not to care, or both.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

kolldata spake:

Chalo wrote:

Red light cameras are the work of folks like
Lockheed-Martin, and they demonstrate "increased enforcement" by
dramatically shortening the yellow light duration at the time of
installation. *It's cheating, but it's standard practice for the folks
who do this.

The corporate businesses who install these split the proceeds with the
municipalities, essentially privatizing civil fines. *That's also
cheating, and SOP.

I wish car drivers were better behaved, and I wish they were more
accountable when they cause harm, but red light cameras as applied are
a scam no city should have any part of.

WHERE does your information come from ?

Publicly available information.

http://www.google.com/search?q=red+l...meras+lockheed

http://www.google.com/search?q=red+l...s+short+yellow

http://www.google.com/search?q=red+l...+split+revenue

Chalo