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Danger from CF rims



 
 
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  #61  
Old December 4th 18, 04:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Default Danger from CF rims

On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 3:18:51 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 12/3/2018 3:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:

It's like the $12 angle grinder from Harbor Freight. At some point, the price is a giant red flag.

I do think there are some bargains to be had. Joerg likes the Chinese brake pads, and there are somethings sold by the Chinese that you just can't get elsewhere -- like these: https://tinyurl.com/y93bccln I'd buy things like a low-use tool e.g. a bleed kit or something for a one-off hub bearing job -- although I'd probably buy US/German/Japanese bearings.

I'd be interested in hearing about true Chinese bargains.


Interestingly enough, my $12 angle grinder from Harbor Freight has
worked out perfectly for me! So there's that.

More disclosu I bought it for one job, cleaning up welds on a set of
ornamental balcony and stair rails I was building. So it worked well
grinding hundreds of welds. It's been used only occasionally since.
(Even more disclosu I don't remember the price. Maybe it was more
than $12.)


I should have used some other tool as an example because even decent angle grinders can be dirt cheap. But yes, some things from Harbor Freight are an incredible deal -- if they make it out of infancy. I had a flashlight short circuit in my car before I even left the HF parking lot -- so I went in and got a new own. There were buckets of them.


I got some Vuelta wheels cheap from Nashbar for my commuter, and they're probably a standard Chinese factory item -- a mildly aero 28 hole aluminum rim, aero spokes and a Formula-ish hub. Same old same old -- decent but nothing earth shattering. Spending more might have gotten me a better set of bearings or freehub, but maybe not. On sale, they were a true bargain.


And we should try to remember that for almost anything regarding
non-electric bicycles, we've long since been deep into diminishing
returns. If your commuter's hubs had better bearings, could you really
tell while slogging uphill in Portland rain? If the spokes or rims were
more aero, would you notice it in your effort expended or in reduced
commuting time? Probably not.


You do notice when things break, and weight difference become noticeable in the aggregate -- with all the other heavy stuff on the commuter, but bearings have to be pretty bad before you can feel (or hear) any difference. My Vuelta wheels are not China direct, either. They do have a warranty and a domestic company that will return e-mails about spoke length (although they were a few mms off).

-- Jay Beattie.

Ads
  #62  
Old December 4th 18, 11:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Danger from CF rims

On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 3:35:34 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 3 Dec 2018 08:02:14 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 3:06:42 AM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 16:17:32 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 3:09:21 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:

Goodness! We were talking about the alleged "fact" that you posted
that "Most carbon rims are made in China from prepreg from Japan" and
I pointed out that carbon rims are also made by U.S. companies and
that their warranty is for 5 years.

Now you are off on a on a trip through the intricacies of the USPS and
apparently complaining that U.S. made wheels are more costly then the
cheap Chinese wheels that you bought.

The last time I corrected your fantasies you changed the subject to
India and now it is (apparently) how impoverish you are.

Wake up Tom, buying stuff because it is cheap and having it fail is
not saving money.

cheers,

John B.

John, is there something about "most" you don't understand? I said MOST carbon rims. And where did you get the reliability data on American made tubeless carbon rims?

What you are saying that if I'm willing to spend 5 times as much I will get a reliable rim when the vast majority of manufacturers don't seem to share your opinion and have changed back to aluminum rims with carbon fairings.

I am curious as to why you would make patently false claims for no other reason than to criticize a posting I placed here to warn people off.

"Patently false claims"? Which ones are those? The one about carbon
rims being made in the U.S.? With a 5 year Warrantee?


Tell me john - what personal experience have you had with carbon rims? What the hell makes you believe that "American made" carbon rims have any different problems with the others? You know nothing about this and simply shoot your mouth off to feel in some manner superior and what that is for I have no idea. Didn't your mother cuddle you enough in your crib?


You said, "I am curious as to why you would make patently false
claims" and when I ask you which of my claims are "patently false" you
don't answer. I can only assume that you can't, which in turn would
seem to indicate that you are prone to saying things that just aren't
true so that when questioned your only reaction is to change the
subject. Or be caught in yet another lie.

As for composite work, I built composite boats and boat parts for
approximately 10 years so yes I do know a bit about the subject....

But I suppose you will now claim that boats and parts aren't round so
it isn't the same thing. Or will you fly off to another subject?


cheers,

John B.


Contrary to your practice I am not on this group 24 hours a day. I have a brother that just had congestive heart failure and that has a little higher priority than some jackass that believes that some company making 100 wheels a month is equal to millions made in China most of which work perfectly well.

Firstly you pretend that "most" means "all" and then you pretend that a 5 year warranty is in some manner worth more than the 2 year warranty that the company I dealt with has, when these failures didn't occur with use but upon assembly. Then you have shown NO TRACK record for your American company. Furthermore, the American wheels are built as heavily as the ones with aluminum rims and carbon fairings. So there is no gain for using solid carbon wheels.

Then on top of all of this you're too stupid to understand that the tubeless rims have far more surface area in the critical bead area and hence are exposed to far more force and you in so doing show you don't know what the Bernoulli principle means.

This is what I say by patently false. The ball is in your court.
  #63  
Old December 4th 18, 11:08 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Danger from CF rims

On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 4:03:46 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 03 Dec 2018 12:01:11 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 12/3/2018 10:26 AM, wrote:
On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 6:12:54 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 1:23:55 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 3:09:21 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
giant snip

Apparently you are unfamiliar with this foreign concept - United States Postal Service. Exactly what you would have a dealer using after charging you as much as 10 times more than I paid. But I'm sure you're rolling in cash and that means nothing to you.

Goodness! We were talking about the alleged "fact" that you posted
that "Most carbon rims are made in China from prepreg from Japan" and
I pointed out that carbon rims are also made by U.S. companies and
that their warranty is for 5 years.

Now you are off on a on a trip through the intricacies of the USPS and
apparently complaining that U.S. made wheels are more costly then the
cheap Chinese wheels that you bought.

The last time I corrected your fantasies you changed the subject to
India and now it is (apparently) how impoverish you are.

Wake up Tom, buying stuff because it is cheap and having it fail is
not saving money.

With his history of CF disasters, TK should be buying the most reliable products on the market sold by domestic sellers with domestic insurers. Try recovering a personal injury settlement or judgment from a Chinese manufacturer who sells direct -- or its insurer in China. Justify the increased price as an insurance premium.

That is also what surprized me. How can a person with that history and the following rants about CF buy cheap Chinese CF stuff. Unbelievable. You can buy Pinnarello frame for 350 euro, looking exactly the same as the originals a probably used in the same moulds, but the measurements showed completely different values. With CF is all about lay ups, used preps and quality control. The fact that something is produced in the same country (China) doesn't mean anything. I stay far far far away from CF with an unknown pedigree as you call it. Tom should do the same IMO. CF rims for clinchers are difficult hence their price, CF rims for tubeless even more difficult and than buying cheap Chinese stuff? WTF is he thinking...




Assuming that the wheels TK bought were unbranded versions of reputable wheels made in a Chinese factory, that means that the factory was knocking them off and stealing its customer's IP -- not something we want to promote. Assuming that the customer is actually policing its IP and its factory, then the knock-off is probably coming from a different factory and is of unknown quality. Now, there have been some very good knock-offs. Phil Knight busted a factory for knocking off Nikes and then hired them because the knock-offs were so good. However, there is no way of knowing in advance what knock-offs are really good and which aren't -- and unlike shoes, you can't see the "stitching" and materials and workmanship of a CF rim. For all you know, there are giant voids and a ****ty lay-up. OTOH, it might be O.K. stuff, but if I had landed on my head a bunch of time because of broken CF bits, O.K. would not be good enough.

+1

Lou

Lou - Where did you see this bike made out of Pinarello molds that had completely different measurements? How did you measure it? My guess is that as usual it is an urban myth.

That reminds me of that video I referenced that showed a high capacity wheel factory in China and someone here referencing a wheel building plant here which had technology 40% of the Chinese version. Almost all of the carbon fiber frames are built in China, Taiwan or India. Do you think that Trek is built here? Have you looked at the C64 Colnago? Knowing what I know not I wouldn't touch that Italian made POJ.

Chinese engineering is as good as anywhere else. Hell, most of their engineers go through American universities. The only problem is when they cut corners to sell cheaper. They are not cutting any corners on the clincher wheels since they are the same wheels used by several British and French "manufacturers" who improve their product by adding a decal. For instance - MAVICs are built in China.

I was totally against CF after several failures I observed personally but after extensive research and actually talking to engineers working with CF at Boeing I changed my opinion. It ain't the material, but the use of the material. Like any other material it has design limitations and if you remain within those limits you're fine.

The tubeless wheels aren't inherently bad designs, they simply do not have the quality control for that specific use. Do you suppose they just released those things without testing them? If they were breaking all the time their test lot would have shown it. But the difference between a test lot and a production lot can be worlds apart.



"Chinese engineering is as good as anywhere else. Hell, most
of their engineers go through American universities."

I do not believe either of those are true.


Chinese collages turns out something like 800,000 engineers a year.
See
http://www.besteduchina.com/engineer..._in_china.html

Given that the U.S. hosts about 1.1 million foreign students, see
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/arti...-united-states

It would mean that for U.S. educated Chinese engineering students make
up more then the 800,000 turned out in Chinese schools, nearly all of
the foreign students in U.S. collages must be Chinese engineering
students.

cheers,

John B.


Why must you continue to prove your stupidity? I'm growing rather tired of it.

Full time Chinese student make up 29% of foreign students but 71% of ALL graduate and post-grads are Chinese.
  #64  
Old December 4th 18, 11:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Danger from CF rims

On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 3:51:30 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I previously bought a set of 50 mm deep Carbon Fiber rims. These were clinchers and were 23 mm wide on the brake surfaces. These have performed faultlessly.

But I didn't want to have to carry around all of the 2 lbs of flat repair stuff - the Topeak bag, multitool, two spare tubes, two CO2 cartridges and the tool to use them and a patch kit ifneeded.

So I decided to go to tubeless as I have successfully used on Campy and Fulcrum aluminum wheelsets. They were selling the 25 mm wide tubeless wheelsets nearly as cheaply as the clincher rims.

I bought a set and they arrived. I also wanted to try 28 mm tires on my Colnago so I was mounting a set of Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires like I had used on my Pinarello Stelvio. The front appeared to mount and hold air as normal for a new mount. Usually it takes a couple of days for all of the small leaks around the sidewalls to seal. You just pump it up until it hold air pretty well and then go for a ride and that jiggles everything into place and you don't have to worry about flats again.

When I was inflating the rear tire and inflating it, there was a loud POP! and I put the wheel into the wheelstand and it was an inch out of true. I assumed this was from delamination but as the wheel was spinning in the stand the air was draining out of it and it came back into true. I pulled the tire off and looked carefully at the entire rim but couldn't see anything. I contacted the seller on Ebay and they sent me a rim which I've covered elsewhere.

In any case I ordered a second wheelset from another manufacturer. They came in pretty fast so they must have gotten to the boat just as it was leaving.

I discovered with the apparently good front wheel that there's insufficient room on the CLX 3.0 to use 28 mm tires. Conveniently Vittoria just released the Corsa Speed tubeless tires so I ordered a set from ProBikeKit. It took a month to get here so it was just a couple of days ago I tried putting them on. I had a lot of problems getting them to push up onto the step that all tubeless rims have. In fact I used up 5 CO2 cartridges without getting one properly mounted. So I had to order another lifetime supply. I expected them to arrive in another week but they were here this morning!

I mounted the new tires and inflated them and they didn't fill properly still. They were spraying the sealant all over the place. Finally they seemed to mount properly. The air pressure was low from all of the leakage getting them on properly. so I stuck a pump on and started pumping them up at around 65 psi they started TICing and when I got to 80 PSI they exploded loudly and the way the tire felt I thought that it had broken the bead. I tried the other wheel and it did the same thing. When the pressure got to 70 psi or so it began making funny noises and at 80 psi BANG!

I called Vittoria America up and gave them a piece of my mind and they were the nicest people in the world and just gave me a return ID and said that they would replace them.

So I went through the process of taking them off with all of that sealant inside. I got them off and there didn't seem to be anything wrong with the tires. So I rubbed by fingers along the top of the rims and one was delaminated for about 10 inches while the other was delaminated a third of the way around the one side of the rim. I kept the wheel box but I cannot return them through Ebay until I communicate with the seller.

Now the tube bed on the clincher wheels is completely different than that of the tubeless so I don't expect any trouble with them. But what is important to note is that probably all 50 mm deep carbon rims are made by the same manufacturer. This makes them all suspect no matter whose decal is on the rims.

If you want the advantages of a good aero section that you can get from carbon 50 mm wheels you should think more about a clincher set. These have more re-enforcement around the brake area.


Buying ANYTHING CARBON from a unknown Chinese builder is a crap shoot at best and possible life threatening at worst. I can't believe the number of people who risk their limbs and health on cheap often shoddily built Chinese knockoffs/pirated copies of bicycles or bicycle components. The adage, "If the price looks to be too low to be good" then it probably is.

Cheers


Tell you what, you use your money your way and I'll use mine my way.
  #65  
Old December 4th 18, 11:29 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 493
Default Danger from CF rims

On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 2:12:48 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 3:51:30 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I previously bought a set of 50 mm deep Carbon Fiber rims. These were clinchers and were 23 mm wide on the brake surfaces. These have performed faultlessly.

But I didn't want to have to carry around all of the 2 lbs of flat repair stuff - the Topeak bag, multitool, two spare tubes, two CO2 cartridges and the tool to use them and a patch kit ifneeded.

So I decided to go to tubeless as I have successfully used on Campy and Fulcrum aluminum wheelsets. They were selling the 25 mm wide tubeless wheelsets nearly as cheaply as the clincher rims.

I bought a set and they arrived. I also wanted to try 28 mm tires on my Colnago so I was mounting a set of Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires like I had used on my Pinarello Stelvio. The front appeared to mount and hold air as normal for a new mount. Usually it takes a couple of days for all of the small leaks around the sidewalls to seal. You just pump it up until it hold air pretty well and then go for a ride and that jiggles everything into place and you don't have to worry about flats again.

When I was inflating the rear tire and inflating it, there was a loud POP! and I put the wheel into the wheelstand and it was an inch out of true. I assumed this was from delamination but as the wheel was spinning in the stand the air was draining out of it and it came back into true. I pulled the tire off and looked carefully at the entire rim but couldn't see anything. I contacted the seller on Ebay and they sent me a rim which I've covered elsewhere.

In any case I ordered a second wheelset from another manufacturer. They came in pretty fast so they must have gotten to the boat just as it was leaving.

I discovered with the apparently good front wheel that there's insufficient room on the CLX 3.0 to use 28 mm tires. Conveniently Vittoria just released the Corsa Speed tubeless tires so I ordered a set from ProBikeKit. It took a month to get here so it was just a couple of days ago I tried putting them on. I had a lot of problems getting them to push up onto the step that all tubeless rims have. In fact I used up 5 CO2 cartridges without getting one properly mounted. So I had to order another lifetime supply. I expected them to arrive in another week but they were here this morning!

I mounted the new tires and inflated them and they didn't fill properly still. They were spraying the sealant all over the place. Finally they seemed to mount properly. The air pressure was low from all of the leakage getting them on properly. so I stuck a pump on and started pumping them up at around 65 psi they started TICing and when I got to 80 PSI they exploded loudly and the way the tire felt I thought that it had broken the bead. I tried the other wheel and it did the same thing. When the pressure got to 70 psi or so it began making funny noises and at 80 psi BANG!

I called Vittoria America up and gave them a piece of my mind and they were the nicest people in the world and just gave me a return ID and said that they would replace them.

So I went through the process of taking them off with all of that sealant inside. I got them off and there didn't seem to be anything wrong with the tires. So I rubbed by fingers along the top of the rims and one was delaminated for about 10 inches while the other was delaminated a third of the way around the one side of the rim. I kept the wheel box but I cannot return them through Ebay until I communicate with the seller.

Now the tube bed on the clincher wheels is completely different than that of the tubeless so I don't expect any trouble with them. But what is important to note is that probably all 50 mm deep carbon rims are made by the same manufacturer. This makes them all suspect no matter whose decal is on the rims.

If you want the advantages of a good aero section that you can get from carbon 50 mm wheels you should think more about a clincher set. These have more re-enforcement around the brake area.


Buying ANYTHING CARBON from a unknown Chinese builder is a crap shoot at best and possible life threatening at worst. I can't believe the number of people who risk their limbs and health on cheap often shoddily built Chinese knockoffs/pirated copies of bicycles or bicycle components. The adage, "If the price looks to be too low to be good" then it probably is.

Cheers


Tell you what, you use your money your way and I'll use mine my way.


That was rude. What I've been saying is that my Chinese $250 carbon wheels so far outperform my $800 Campy aero al wheels that there is no contest. You can hardly hold the Campy wheels on the road in side gusts whereas you can barely tell side gusts with the other. The hub bearings spin so freely that I can
flip the wheel and come back 5 minutes later and it is still turning. Does that sound as if my investment was too good to be true?
  #66  
Old December 5th 18, 02:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 9,855
Default Danger from CF rims

On 12/4/2018 4:29 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 2:12:48 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 3:51:30 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I previously bought a set of 50 mm deep Carbon Fiber rims. These were clinchers and were 23 mm wide on the brake surfaces. These have performed faultlessly.

But I didn't want to have to carry around all of the 2 lbs of flat repair stuff - the Topeak bag, multitool, two spare tubes, two CO2 cartridges and the tool to use them and a patch kit ifneeded.

So I decided to go to tubeless as I have successfully used on Campy and Fulcrum aluminum wheelsets. They were selling the 25 mm wide tubeless wheelsets nearly as cheaply as the clincher rims.

I bought a set and they arrived. I also wanted to try 28 mm tires on my Colnago so I was mounting a set of Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires like I had used on my Pinarello Stelvio. The front appeared to mount and hold air as normal for a new mount. Usually it takes a couple of days for all of the small leaks around the sidewalls to seal. You just pump it up until it hold air pretty well and then go for a ride and that jiggles everything into place and you don't have to worry about flats again.

When I was inflating the rear tire and inflating it, there was a loud POP! and I put the wheel into the wheelstand and it was an inch out of true. I assumed this was from delamination but as the wheel was spinning in the stand the air was draining out of it and it came back into true. I pulled the tire off and looked carefully at the entire rim but couldn't see anything. I contacted the seller on Ebay and they sent me a rim which I've covered elsewhere.

In any case I ordered a second wheelset from another manufacturer. They came in pretty fast so they must have gotten to the boat just as it was leaving.

I discovered with the apparently good front wheel that there's insufficient room on the CLX 3.0 to use 28 mm tires. Conveniently Vittoria just released the Corsa Speed tubeless tires so I ordered a set from ProBikeKit. It took a month to get here so it was just a couple of days ago I tried putting them on. I had a lot of problems getting them to push up onto the step that all tubeless rims have. In fact I used up 5 CO2 cartridges without getting one properly mounted. So I had to order another lifetime supply. I expected them to arrive in another week but they were here this morning!

I mounted the new tires and inflated them and they didn't fill properly still. They were spraying the sealant all over the place. Finally they seemed to mount properly. The air pressure was low from all of the leakage getting them on properly. so I stuck a pump on and started pumping them up at around 65 psi they started TICing and when I got to 80 PSI they exploded loudly and the way the tire felt I thought that it had broken the bead. I tried the other wheel and it did the same thing. When the pressure got to 70 psi or so it began making funny noises and at 80 psi BANG!

I called Vittoria America up and gave them a piece of my mind and they were the nicest people in the world and just gave me a return ID and said that they would replace them.

So I went through the process of taking them off with all of that sealant inside. I got them off and there didn't seem to be anything wrong with the tires. So I rubbed by fingers along the top of the rims and one was delaminated for about 10 inches while the other was delaminated a third of the way around the one side of the rim. I kept the wheel box but I cannot return them through Ebay until I communicate with the seller.

Now the tube bed on the clincher wheels is completely different than that of the tubeless so I don't expect any trouble with them. But what is important to note is that probably all 50 mm deep carbon rims are made by the same manufacturer. This makes them all suspect no matter whose decal is on the rims.

If you want the advantages of a good aero section that you can get from carbon 50 mm wheels you should think more about a clincher set. These have more re-enforcement around the brake area.

Buying ANYTHING CARBON from a unknown Chinese builder is a crap shoot at best and possible life threatening at worst. I can't believe the number of people who risk their limbs and health on cheap often shoddily built Chinese knockoffs/pirated copies of bicycles or bicycle components. The adage, "If the price looks to be too low to be good" then it probably is.

Cheers


Tell you what, you use your money your way and I'll use mine my way.


That was rude. What I've been saying is that my Chinese $250 carbon wheels so far outperform my $800 Campy aero al wheels that there is no contest. You can hardly hold the Campy wheels on the road in side gusts whereas you can barely tell side gusts with the other. The hub bearings spin so freely that I can
flip the wheel and come back 5 minutes later and it is still turning. Does that sound as if my investment was too good to be true?


If you ring up Mr Campagnolo and suggest that he merely buy
his wheels from the same place you did, he might split the
savings with you. Or not.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #67  
Old December 5th 18, 04:42 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 365
Default Danger from CF rims

On Tue, 4 Dec 2018 14:02:08 -0800 (PST), wrote:



Contrary to your practice I am not on this group 24 hours a day. I have a brother that just had congestive heart failure and that has a little higher priority than some jackass that believes that some company making 100 wheels a month is equal to millions made in China most of which work perfectly well.

Firstly you pretend that "most" means "all" and then you pretend that a 5 year warranty is in some manner worth more than the 2 year warranty that the company I dealt with has, when these failures didn't occur with use but upon assembly. Then you have shown NO TRACK record for your American company. Furthermore, the American wheels are built as heavily as the ones with aluminum rims and carbon fairings. So there is no gain for using solid carbon wheels.

Then on top of all of this you're too stupid to understand that rthe tubeless rims have far more surface area in the critical bead area and hence are exposed to far more force and you in so doing show you don't know what the Bernoulli principle means.

This is what I say by patently false. The ball is in your court.



I can only believe that you must be either a recent immigrant or
someone with a very minimal knowledge of the English language, so for
your edification:

From the dictionary:
Patently - unmistakably (`plain' is often used informally for
`plainly')
Wrong - not correct

So I repeat (in more simple terms)
"plainly incorrect"? Which ones are those? The one about carbon
rims being made in the U.S.? With a 5 year Warrantee?

cheers,

John B.


  #68  
Old December 5th 18, 06:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 493
Default Danger from CF rims

On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 7:12:31 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/4/2018 4:29 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 2:12:48 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 3:51:30 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I previously bought a set of 50 mm deep Carbon Fiber rims. These were clinchers and were 23 mm wide on the brake surfaces. These have performed faultlessly.

But I didn't want to have to carry around all of the 2 lbs of flat repair stuff - the Topeak bag, multitool, two spare tubes, two CO2 cartridges and the tool to use them and a patch kit ifneeded.

So I decided to go to tubeless as I have successfully used on Campy and Fulcrum aluminum wheelsets. They were selling the 25 mm wide tubeless wheelsets nearly as cheaply as the clincher rims.

I bought a set and they arrived. I also wanted to try 28 mm tires on my Colnago so I was mounting a set of Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires like I had used on my Pinarello Stelvio. The front appeared to mount and hold air as normal for a new mount. Usually it takes a couple of days for all of the small leaks around the sidewalls to seal. You just pump it up until it hold air pretty well and then go for a ride and that jiggles everything into place and you don't have to worry about flats again.

When I was inflating the rear tire and inflating it, there was a loud POP! and I put the wheel into the wheelstand and it was an inch out of true. I assumed this was from delamination but as the wheel was spinning in the stand the air was draining out of it and it came back into true. I pulled the tire off and looked carefully at the entire rim but couldn't see anything. I contacted the seller on Ebay and they sent me a rim which I've covered elsewhere.

In any case I ordered a second wheelset from another manufacturer. They came in pretty fast so they must have gotten to the boat just as it was leaving.

I discovered with the apparently good front wheel that there's insufficient room on the CLX 3.0 to use 28 mm tires. Conveniently Vittoria just released the Corsa Speed tubeless tires so I ordered a set from ProBikeKit. It took a month to get here so it was just a couple of days ago I tried putting them on. I had a lot of problems getting them to push up onto the step that all tubeless rims have. In fact I used up 5 CO2 cartridges without getting one properly mounted. So I had to order another lifetime supply. I expected them to arrive in another week but they were here this morning!

I mounted the new tires and inflated them and they didn't fill properly still. They were spraying the sealant all over the place. Finally they seemed to mount properly. The air pressure was low from all of the leakage getting them on properly. so I stuck a pump on and started pumping them up at around 65 psi they started TICing and when I got to 80 PSI they exploded loudly and the way the tire felt I thought that it had broken the bead. I tried the other wheel and it did the same thing. When the pressure got to 70 psi or so it began making funny noises and at 80 psi BANG!

I called Vittoria America up and gave them a piece of my mind and they were the nicest people in the world and just gave me a return ID and said that they would replace them.

So I went through the process of taking them off with all of that sealant inside. I got them off and there didn't seem to be anything wrong with the tires. So I rubbed by fingers along the top of the rims and one was delaminated for about 10 inches while the other was delaminated a third of the way around the one side of the rim. I kept the wheel box but I cannot return them through Ebay until I communicate with the seller.

Now the tube bed on the clincher wheels is completely different than that of the tubeless so I don't expect any trouble with them. But what is important to note is that probably all 50 mm deep carbon rims are made by the same manufacturer. This makes them all suspect no matter whose decal is on the rims.

If you want the advantages of a good aero section that you can get from carbon 50 mm wheels you should think more about a clincher set. These have more re-enforcement around the brake area.

Buying ANYTHING CARBON from a unknown Chinese builder is a crap shoot at best and possible life threatening at worst. I can't believe the number of people who risk their limbs and health on cheap often shoddily built Chinese knockoffs/pirated copies of bicycles or bicycle components. The adage, "If the price looks to be too low to be good" then it probably is.

Cheers

Tell you what, you use your money your way and I'll use mine my way.


That was rude. What I've been saying is that my Chinese $250 carbon wheels so far outperform my $800 Campy aero al wheels that there is no contest.. You can hardly hold the Campy wheels on the road in side gusts whereas you can barely tell side gusts with the other. The hub bearings spin so freely that I can
flip the wheel and come back 5 minutes later and it is still turning. Does that sound as if my investment was too good to be true?


If you ring up Mr Campagnolo and suggest that he merely buy
his wheels from the same place you did, he might split the
savings with you. Or not.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


The clinchers are built almost exactly like a tubular rim with a bead lock on both sides.

Would you find a tubular carbon rim to be dangerous? If not why would you find a pure clincher made in the same manner as dangerous?

Why do you suppose that the industry has backtracked on pure carbon tubeless wheels? Do you suppose they did that for the looks?

I have used my Campy Siroccos for a year and the brake surface is worn below the limit markers. Do you think that is because aluminum braking surfaces are all that great?

It's my opinion that like everything else in this world, new technology always brings a learning curve. I do not hear of new carbon frame breaking anymore. And I haven't seen a broken new-style carbon fork. The handling of my Colnago is something I wouldn't have believed possible before. I'm really fast downhill. But with the Colnago it's just like riding on a straight road.

The combination of highly ridged frame, fork and wheels puts all of the cornering forces on the tires which have a limited amount of motion and it REALLY makes a difference.
  #69  
Old December 5th 18, 07:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,500
Default Danger from CF rims

On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 9:36:53 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 7:12:31 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/4/2018 4:29 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 2:12:48 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 3:51:30 AM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 6:05:02 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I previously bought a set of 50 mm deep Carbon Fiber rims. These were clinchers and were 23 mm wide on the brake surfaces. These have performed faultlessly.

But I didn't want to have to carry around all of the 2 lbs of flat repair stuff - the Topeak bag, multitool, two spare tubes, two CO2 cartridges and the tool to use them and a patch kit ifneeded.

So I decided to go to tubeless as I have successfully used on Campy and Fulcrum aluminum wheelsets. They were selling the 25 mm wide tubeless wheelsets nearly as cheaply as the clincher rims.

I bought a set and they arrived. I also wanted to try 28 mm tires on my Colnago so I was mounting a set of Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires like I had used on my Pinarello Stelvio. The front appeared to mount and hold air as normal for a new mount. Usually it takes a couple of days for all of the small leaks around the sidewalls to seal. You just pump it up until it hold air pretty well and then go for a ride and that jiggles everything into place and you don't have to worry about flats again.

When I was inflating the rear tire and inflating it, there was a loud POP! and I put the wheel into the wheelstand and it was an inch out of true. I assumed this was from delamination but as the wheel was spinning in the stand the air was draining out of it and it came back into true. I pulled the tire off and looked carefully at the entire rim but couldn't see anything. I contacted the seller on Ebay and they sent me a rim which I've covered elsewhere.

In any case I ordered a second wheelset from another manufacturer. They came in pretty fast so they must have gotten to the boat just as it was leaving.

I discovered with the apparently good front wheel that there's insufficient room on the CLX 3.0 to use 28 mm tires. Conveniently Vittoria just released the Corsa Speed tubeless tires so I ordered a set from ProBikeKit. It took a month to get here so it was just a couple of days ago I tried putting them on. I had a lot of problems getting them to push up onto the step that all tubeless rims have. In fact I used up 5 CO2 cartridges without getting one properly mounted. So I had to order another lifetime supply. I expected them to arrive in another week but they were here this morning!

I mounted the new tires and inflated them and they didn't fill properly still. They were spraying the sealant all over the place. Finally they seemed to mount properly. The air pressure was low from all of the leakage getting them on properly. so I stuck a pump on and started pumping them up at around 65 psi they started TICing and when I got to 80 PSI they exploded loudly and the way the tire felt I thought that it had broken the bead. I tried the other wheel and it did the same thing. When the pressure got to 70 psi or so it began making funny noises and at 80 psi BANG!

I called Vittoria America up and gave them a piece of my mind and they were the nicest people in the world and just gave me a return ID and said that they would replace them.

So I went through the process of taking them off with all of that sealant inside. I got them off and there didn't seem to be anything wrong with the tires. So I rubbed by fingers along the top of the rims and one was delaminated for about 10 inches while the other was delaminated a third of the way around the one side of the rim. I kept the wheel box but I cannot return them through Ebay until I communicate with the seller.

Now the tube bed on the clincher wheels is completely different than that of the tubeless so I don't expect any trouble with them. But what is important to note is that probably all 50 mm deep carbon rims are made by the same manufacturer. This makes them all suspect no matter whose decal is on the rims.

If you want the advantages of a good aero section that you can get from carbon 50 mm wheels you should think more about a clincher set. These have more re-enforcement around the brake area.

Buying ANYTHING CARBON from a unknown Chinese builder is a crap shoot at best and possible life threatening at worst. I can't believe the number of people who risk their limbs and health on cheap often shoddily built Chinese knockoffs/pirated copies of bicycles or bicycle components. The adage, "If the price looks to be too low to be good" then it probably is.

Cheers

Tell you what, you use your money your way and I'll use mine my way.

That was rude. What I've been saying is that my Chinese $250 carbon wheels so far outperform my $800 Campy aero al wheels that there is no contest. You can hardly hold the Campy wheels on the road in side gusts whereas you can barely tell side gusts with the other. The hub bearings spin so freely that I can
flip the wheel and come back 5 minutes later and it is still turning. Does that sound as if my investment was too good to be true?


If you ring up Mr Campagnolo and suggest that he merely buy
his wheels from the same place you did, he might split the
savings with you. Or not.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


The clinchers are built almost exactly like a tubular rim with a bead lock on both sides.

Would you find a tubular carbon rim to be dangerous? If not why would you find a pure clincher made in the same manner as dangerous?

Why do you suppose that the industry has backtracked on pure carbon tubeless wheels? Do you suppose they did that for the looks?

I have used my Campy Siroccos for a year and the brake surface is worn below the limit markers. Do you think that is because aluminum braking surfaces are all that great?


No, but you thank Buddha for aluminum brake surfaces on a long downhill in the rain -- or even just a long downhill. Discs are SOP on all my bikes ridden in the rain. Not necessary for a dry weather road bike, but they do save aluminum rims.


It's my opinion that like everything else in this world, new technology always brings a learning curve. I do not hear of new carbon frame breaking anymore. And I haven't seen a broken new-style carbon fork. The handling of my Colnago is something I wouldn't have believed possible before. I'm really fast downhill. But with the Colnago it's just like riding on a straight road.

The combination of highly ridged frame, fork and wheels puts all of the cornering forces on the tires which have a limited amount of motion and it REALLY makes a difference.


Enve just released an all carbon tubeless wheel made in the US of A. Not cheap. Legitimate manufacturers with engineering and R&D staff are not abandoning CF tubeless.

IMO, that's the trick with the Chinese components. You have to wait until they steal enough technology to get up to speed and then you have to make sure that the product is coming from a company with the chops to build it. Keep in mind that there are pirated-pirated frames and other components -- after-hours stuff built with carbon scraps thrown into an open mold. If you buy a Chinese open mold frame, you still have to make sure the maker is sending its "A product" out the front door rather than the night shift sneaking crap out the back.

I think you can get some decent Chinese CF wheels of a simple design from a factory with a proven track record, but if the wheels fail, and you end up on your head again, don't expect to get a settlement or judgment from the company. Another approach is to buy house branded Chinese components through a domestic seller like Performance, Nashbar, etc. They may go bankrupt, but they still have insurance.

-- Jay Beattie.

 




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