A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Chain wear and cassette question



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old November 10th 18, 09:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,607
Default Chain wear and cassette question

To my amazement a Sachs-Sedis chain will absolutely not exceed 0.5%
stretch after more than 5000mi, despite some hills where one has to
stand in the pedals. Never had a chain last this long. However, the
rollers have developed a lot of play, about 0.040" or 1mm. How much is
too much? I guess it's almost finished because of those rollers.

Getting older, I'd like to increase the large cog to at least 40T from
my current 32T. Of course, that will require me to retire the trusty old
Shimano 600 derailer. I don't want the cassette to become ever wider and
also need to maintain 7-speed spacing so I can use the more robust
old-style 7.3mm pin length chains such as KMC Z50 (can't find the Sachs
anymore). In the past I hacked cassettes, installed the cogs I wanted
and re-used the old spacers. Can the larger cassettes like in the link
below still be hacked apart? I don't mind drilling or dremeling stuff to
get them apart. If memory serves me correctly I've installed a Shimano
STX-RC freehub on the road bike after the last UG freehub had croaked.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SunRace-CSM...k/132325285327

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Ads
  #2  
Old November 10th 18, 11:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,485
Default Chain wear and cassette question

On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 12:51:38 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
To my amazement a Sachs-Sedis chain will absolutely not exceed 0.5%
stretch after more than 5000mi, despite some hills where one has to
stand in the pedals. Never had a chain last this long. However, the
rollers have developed a lot of play, about 0.040" or 1mm. How much is
too much? I guess it's almost finished because of those rollers.

Getting older, I'd like to increase the large cog to at least 40T from
my current 32T. Of course, that will require me to retire the trusty old
Shimano 600 derailer. I don't want the cassette to become ever wider and
also need to maintain 7-speed spacing so I can use the more robust
old-style 7.3mm pin length chains such as KMC Z50 (can't find the Sachs
anymore). In the past I hacked cassettes, installed the cogs I wanted
and re-used the old spacers. Can the larger cassettes like in the link
below still be hacked apart? I don't mind drilling or dremeling stuff to
get them apart. If memory serves me correctly I've installed a Shimano
STX-RC freehub on the road bike after the last UG freehub had croaked.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SunRace-CSM...k/132325285327

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


With the Sunrace, the big cogs are not on a carrier, so you can talk it apart. It looks like it has one torx screw. http://www.sunrace.com/en/products/detail/csm680
  #3  
Old November 10th 18, 11:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 310
Default Chain wear and cassette question

On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 12:51:48 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

To my amazement a Sachs-Sedis chain will absolutely not exceed 0.5%
stretch after more than 5000mi, despite some hills where one has to
stand in the pedals. Never had a chain last this long. However, the
rollers have developed a lot of play, about 0.040" or 1mm. How much is
too much? I guess it's almost finished because of those rollers.

Getting older, I'd like to increase the large cog to at least 40T from
my current 32T. Of course, that will require me to retire the trusty old
Shimano 600 derailer. I don't want the cassette to become ever wider and
also need to maintain 7-speed spacing so I can use the more robust
old-style 7.3mm pin length chains such as KMC Z50 (can't find the Sachs
anymore). In the past I hacked cassettes, installed the cogs I wanted
and re-used the old spacers. Can the larger cassettes like in the link
below still be hacked apart? I don't mind drilling or dremeling stuff to
get them apart. If memory serves me correctly I've installed a Shimano
STX-RC freehub on the road bike after the last UG freehub had croaked.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SunRace-CSM...k/132325285327


My rather limited experience has been that the
cassettes with the larger cogs usually have the largest 3 or 4 cogs
riveted to a hub that connects them to the free hub so yes you can
hack them if you accept the size and spacing of the largest three, or
so, cogs.

Some time ago I think you talked about using friction shifters and if
you do that then the spacing of the cassette is no longer relevant as
the friction shifters will shift any cassette.

cheers,

John B.



  #4  
Old November 11th 18, 12:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Gregory Sutter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 164
Default Chain wear and cassette question

On 2018-11-10, Joerg wrote:

Getting older, I'd like to increase the large cog to at least 40T from
my current 32T. Of course, that will require me to retire the trusty old
Shimano 600 derailer. I don't want the cassette to become ever wider and
also need to maintain 7-speed spacing so I can use the more robust
old-style 7.3mm pin length chains such as KMC Z50 (can't find the Sachs
anymore). In the past I hacked cassettes, installed the cogs I wanted
and re-used the old spacers. Can the larger cassettes like in the link
below still be hacked apart? I don't mind drilling or dremeling stuff to
get them apart. If memory serves me correctly I've installed a Shimano
STX-RC freehub on the road bike after the last UG freehub had croaked.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SunRace-CSM...k/132325285327


This post makes me question a lot of things, including your sense of
time invested vs getting what you want no matter how the industry has
stopped doing it that way. Moving past that, though:

If you want to maintain 7sp spacing, then your hub has a 7sp cassette
body, probably HG with 31.9mm width. You should tell us specifically
what it is, though; widths vary, including the also-7sp Shimano IG.

You've posted an 8sp cassette (36.5mm width). Photo #2 shows the
one silver and two black pins holding the cogs together. You could
think about using a drill press, I suppose, but looking at photo #1
there looks like a color difference between the smallest 3 cogs and
the rest, which adds to my suspicion that they're separate from the
larger pinned set. If that's so, then you can think about omitting
cogs and spacers to fit the smaller width of your cassette body.

For the derailer, if your 600 is a GS (aka mid cage) instead
of the short one, which I assume it is due to your current 32t
configuration, then you might try keeping it and adding a Wolf
Tooth Roadlink. Making your bike one more bit of a hack should be
considered a central part of this quest, and that fits the bill while
hopefully allowing you to keep using existing equipment.

https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/...ducts/roadlink

--
Gregory S. Sutter Mostly Harmless

http://zer0.org/~gsutter/
  #5  
Old November 11th 18, 02:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,485
Default Chain wear and cassette question

On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 3:09:36 PM UTC-8, Gregory Sutter wrote:
On 2018-11-10, Joerg wrote:

Getting older, I'd like to increase the large cog to at least 40T from
my current 32T. Of course, that will require me to retire the trusty old
Shimano 600 derailer. I don't want the cassette to become ever wider and
also need to maintain 7-speed spacing so I can use the more robust
old-style 7.3mm pin length chains such as KMC Z50 (can't find the Sachs
anymore). In the past I hacked cassettes, installed the cogs I wanted
and re-used the old spacers. Can the larger cassettes like in the link
below still be hacked apart? I don't mind drilling or dremeling stuff to
get them apart. If memory serves me correctly I've installed a Shimano
STX-RC freehub on the road bike after the last UG freehub had croaked.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SunRace-CSM...k/132325285327


This post makes me question a lot of things, including your sense of
time invested vs getting what you want no matter how the industry has
stopped doing it that way. Moving past that, though:

If you want to maintain 7sp spacing, then your hub has a 7sp cassette
body, probably HG with 31.9mm width. You should tell us specifically
what it is, though; widths vary, including the also-7sp Shimano IG.

You've posted an 8sp cassette (36.5mm width). Photo #2 shows the
one silver and two black pins holding the cogs together. You could
think about using a drill press, I suppose, but looking at photo #1
there looks like a color difference between the smallest 3 cogs and
the rest, which adds to my suspicion that they're separate from the
larger pinned set. If that's so, then you can think about omitting
cogs and spacers to fit the smaller width of your cassette body.

For the derailer, if your 600 is a GS (aka mid cage) instead
of the short one, which I assume it is due to your current 32t
configuration, then you might try keeping it and adding a Wolf
Tooth Roadlink. Making your bike one more bit of a hack should be
considered a central part of this quest, and that fits the bill while
hopefully allowing you to keep using existing equipment.

https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/...ducts/roadlink


I think the pins could be removed with Joerg's patented nail and a hammer, and the silver pin is a screw. It looks like the Sunrace people are trying to accommodate the build-a-beater set.

That Wolftooth is interesting and reminiscent of the new Shimano derailleurs. https://static.biketiresdirect.com/p...0/sh7rd1-1.jpg

Joerg needs a gravel bike, which he could get practically anywhere for pretty cheap. Keep the economy strong! Use that giant Trump tax savings!

Yes, 11sp wears out more quickly, but it is smooth as butt-ah, and he could get hydraulic discs for the super-duper scary road descents, drunk drivers, mountain lions (I brake for mountain lions), etc. Cameron Park demands discs!

I was getting dragged around today by a friend who was on 35mm CX tires and a CX race bike. I was on a Synapse with 28mm slicks. My friend loves his CX race bike with wide range 11sp. It's like 16lbs. We hit some straight up gravel, and he rode away on his little gears. https://tinyurl.com/y7le55hm (steeper than it looks up that cut). Cold but clear, and it warmed up a bit. Lots of scary cars on the way home, but my disc brakes saved me. I would never ride a bike without discs. I could die. Joerg is actually exposing himself to great danger on that early '80s hose-clamp museum piece club racer of his.

-- Jay Beattie.



  #6  
Old November 11th 18, 04:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,813
Default Chain wear and cassette question

On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 3:51:38 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
To my amazement a Sachs-Sedis chain will absolutely not exceed 0.5%
stretch after more than 5000mi, despite some hills where one has to
stand in the pedals. Never had a chain last this long. However, the
rollers have developed a lot of play, about 0.040" or 1mm. How much is
too much? I guess it's almost finished because of those rollers.

Getting older, I'd like to increase the large cog to at least 40T from
my current 32T. Of course, that will require me to retire the trusty old
Shimano 600 derailer. I don't want the cassette to become ever wider and
also need to maintain 7-speed spacing so I can use the more robust
old-style 7.3mm pin length chains such as KMC Z50 (can't find the Sachs
anymore). In the past I hacked cassettes, installed the cogs I wanted
and re-used the old spacers. Can the larger cassettes like in the link
below still be hacked apart? I don't mind drilling or dremeling stuff to
get them apart. If memory serves me correctly I've installed a Shimano
STX-RC freehub on the road bike after the last UG freehub had croaked.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SunRace-CSM...k/132325285327

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Maybe think about changing the crankset to smaller chainrings instead? Won't getting the rear derailleur low enough to clear that 40 teeth cog also make the derailleur more vulnerable to getting smacked by a rock?

Cheers
  #7  
Old November 11th 18, 04:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,607
Default Chain wear and cassette question

On 2018-11-10 14:49, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 12:51:38 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
To my amazement a Sachs-Sedis chain will absolutely not exceed
0.5% stretch after more than 5000mi, despite some hills where one
has to stand in the pedals. Never had a chain last this long.
However, the rollers have developed a lot of play, about 0.040" or
1mm. How much is too much? I guess it's almost finished because of
those rollers.

Getting older, I'd like to increase the large cog to at least 40T
from my current 32T. Of course, that will require me to retire the
trusty old Shimano 600 derailer. I don't want the cassette to
become ever wider and also need to maintain 7-speed spacing so I
can use the more robust old-style 7.3mm pin length chains such as
KMC Z50 (can't find the Sachs anymore). In the past I hacked
cassettes, installed the cogs I wanted and re-used the old spacers.
Can the larger cassettes like in the link below still be hacked
apart? I don't mind drilling or dremeling stuff to get them apart.
If memory serves me correctly I've installed a Shimano STX-RC
freehub on the road bike after the last UG freehub had croaked.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SunRace-CSM...k/132325285327



--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


With the Sunrace, the big cogs are not on a carrier, so you can talk
it apart. It looks like it has one torx screw.
http://www.sunrace.com/en/products/detail/csm680


Cool. Thanks, then in can be done. I wonder why they often sell derailer
hanger adapters for that. Maybe even the long cage derailers aren't long
enough for 40T? Should work on my road bike though because it has
adjustable slot drop-outs and I already had to scoot it forward to make
the Shimano 600 derailer handle 32T (it's normally limited to 28T).

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #8  
Old November 11th 18, 04:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,607
Default Chain wear and cassette question

On 2018-11-10 14:53, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 10 Nov 2018 12:51:48 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

To my amazement a Sachs-Sedis chain will absolutely not exceed 0.5%
stretch after more than 5000mi, despite some hills where one has to
stand in the pedals. Never had a chain last this long. However, the
rollers have developed a lot of play, about 0.040" or 1mm. How much is
too much? I guess it's almost finished because of those rollers.

Getting older, I'd like to increase the large cog to at least 40T from
my current 32T. Of course, that will require me to retire the trusty old
Shimano 600 derailer. I don't want the cassette to become ever wider and
also need to maintain 7-speed spacing so I can use the more robust
old-style 7.3mm pin length chains such as KMC Z50 (can't find the Sachs
anymore). In the past I hacked cassettes, installed the cogs I wanted
and re-used the old spacers. Can the larger cassettes like in the link
below still be hacked apart? I don't mind drilling or dremeling stuff to
get them apart. If memory serves me correctly I've installed a Shimano
STX-RC freehub on the road bike after the last UG freehub had croaked.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SunRace-CSM...k/132325285327


My rather limited experience has been that the
cassettes with the larger cogs usually have the largest 3 or 4 cogs
riveted to a hub that connects them to the free hub so yes you can
hack them if you accept the size and spacing of the largest three, or
so, cogs.


Yes, some cassettes are like that, such as the one on my MTB. I never
saw an 8-speed like that though.


Some time ago I think you talked about using friction shifters and if
you do that then the spacing of the cassette is no longer relevant as
the friction shifters will shift any cassette.


It will but I'd like to stay with the sturdier 5-6-7 speed chains for
the road bike. That reduces maintance.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #9  
Old November 11th 18, 04:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,607
Default Chain wear and cassette question

On 2018-11-10 15:09, Gregory Sutter wrote:
On 2018-11-10, Joerg wrote:

Getting older, I'd like to increase the large cog to at least 40T from
my current 32T. Of course, that will require me to retire the trusty old
Shimano 600 derailer. I don't want the cassette to become ever wider and
also need to maintain 7-speed spacing so I can use the more robust
old-style 7.3mm pin length chains such as KMC Z50 (can't find the Sachs
anymore). In the past I hacked cassettes, installed the cogs I wanted
and re-used the old spacers. Can the larger cassettes like in the link
below still be hacked apart? I don't mind drilling or dremeling stuff to
get them apart. If memory serves me correctly I've installed a Shimano
STX-RC freehub on the road bike after the last UG freehub had croaked.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SunRace-CSM...k/132325285327


This post makes me question a lot of things, including your sense of
time invested vs getting what you want no matter how the industry has
stopped doing it that way.



That's how I roll. I never spent a whole lot of time getting the things
I want, regardless of what industry folks have decided. Hacking a
cassette and assembling a custom one from the parts takes just a few
minutes extra. BTDT. It just has to be hackable and sometimes that isn't
very visible in sales photos, hence my post.


... Moving past that, though:

If you want to maintain 7sp spacing, then your hub has a 7sp cassette
body, probably HG with 31.9mm width. You should tell us specifically
what it is, though; widths vary, including the also-7sp Shimano IG.


Embarrassed to say, that is the only piece of info I forgot to enter
into my bike computer file. IIRC what I installed is a Shimano STX-RC
7=speed hub which supposedly is the only one that can replace a UG hub
without being excessively wide. It barely fit but I had to jiggle the
spacers to make a 7-speed set-up work. I can run it with 6 cogs no sweat
though, or grind off the teeth on the outermost cog (because there is a
rack screw in the way). I did have to re-dish the wheel for this change.


You've posted an 8sp cassette (36.5mm width). Photo #2 shows the
one silver and two black pins holding the cogs together. You could
think about using a drill press, I suppose, but looking at photo #1
there looks like a color difference between the smallest 3 cogs and
the rest, which adds to my suspicion that they're separate from the
larger pinned set. If that's so, then you can think about omitting
cogs and spacers to fit the smaller width of your cassette body.


That's what I'd like to try. Jay wrote that it's hackable so that is good.


For the derailer, if your 600 is a GS (aka mid cage) instead
of the short one, which I assume it is due to your current 32t
configuration, then you might try keeping it and adding a Wolf
Tooth Roadlink. Making your bike one more bit of a hack should be
considered a central part of this quest, and that fits the bill while
hopefully allowing you to keep using existing equipment.

https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/...ducts/roadlink


It's a short cage 600 and the only way I got it to shift up to the 32T
was to scoot the rear wheel a bit forward in the slotted drop-outs.
They've got alignment screws for that. This derailer is pretty tired,
noisy idlers and all that, so getting a new long-cage one is probably
wise. I'd have to find out if those shift to 40T though or I'd have to
buy an adapter. You can get adapters from other manufacturers for around $7.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #10  
Old November 11th 18, 04:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,607
Default Chain wear and cassette question

On 2018-11-10 19:26, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 3:51:38 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
To my amazement a Sachs-Sedis chain will absolutely not exceed
0.5% stretch after more than 5000mi, despite some hills where one
has to stand in the pedals. Never had a chain last this long.
However, the rollers have developed a lot of play, about 0.040" or
1mm. How much is too much? I guess it's almost finished because of
those rollers.

Getting older, I'd like to increase the large cog to at least 40T
from my current 32T. Of course, that will require me to retire the
trusty old Shimano 600 derailer. I don't want the cassette to
become ever wider and also need to maintain 7-speed spacing so I
can use the more robust old-style 7.3mm pin length chains such as
KMC Z50 (can't find the Sachs anymore). In the past I hacked
cassettes, installed the cogs I wanted and re-used the old spacers.
Can the larger cassettes like in the link below still be hacked
apart? I don't mind drilling or dremeling stuff to get them apart.
If memory serves me correctly I've installed a Shimano STX-RC
freehub on the road bike after the last UG freehub had croaked.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SunRace-CSM...k/132325285327



--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Maybe think about changing the crankset to smaller chainrings
instead?



That is the other option, getting a compact for a square-taper BB.
Requires a new derailer as well but for the front. However, I'd like to
keep the old 52T and 42T combo. When riding on the 30mi long bike path
between Sacramento and Folsom on a busier day that is just the right
combination for a quick downshift, to accelerate hard and pass another
cyclist, then shift back to the 52T ring.


... Won't getting the rear derailleur low enough to clear that
40 teeth cog also make the derailleur more vulnerable to getting
smacked by a rock?


While I do go offroad with my road bike it's not gnarly and then I ride
slowly. On the MTB the rear derailer gets smacked a lot and I had to
bend the hanger back numerous times during rides. The M781 derailer on
the MTB is surprisingly sturdy. It's missing a little piece in the
middle but still going strong.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
if chain wear were never a factor, how long would a cassette last? [email protected] Techniques 12 August 16th 07 04:48 AM
chain stretch, cassette wear and joining links xisle Australia 3 September 9th 04 03:31 AM
chain stretch, cassette wear and joining links xisle Australia 1 September 8th 04 02:18 AM
chain stretch, cassette wear and joining links xisle Australia 4 September 8th 04 02:10 AM
chain stretch, cassette wear and joining links xisle Australia 3 September 7th 04 05:48 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.