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Noise from new Sunrace cassette



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 23rd 18, 09:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 493
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 10:10:23 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-23 09:48, wrote:
On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 9:29:33 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-23 08:07, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 10:59:18 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-22 20:59, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 16:05:54 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

After installing a new Sunrace 40-11T cassette (minus one
cog), a new chain and a new rear derailer the road bike can
now climb hills much better. 40T as biggest cog versus 32T
before. Woohoo!

However, on the middle and three larger cogs (it's now a
7-speed) there is a distinct vrrrt .. vrrrt sound when
under heavy load. Maybe from the chain because with a
derailer setup it'll never run 100% straight. Hard to say.
The noise appears briefly twice per pedal crank rotation
and always on the power strokes.

The chain is a KMC Z50 that should be suited for 7-speed
and I looked, it doesn't rub against a neighbor cog. Maybe
a "teeth exit grinding"? On the 3rd cog from the largest
it's really weird because that has an almost perfect chain
line when on the small chain ring up front.

Anyone heard that before? Can it simply be ignored? Or
maybe it'll go away over time?

I've had a noise from a front derailer due to the chain
rubbing on the derailer "cage".


It's definitely not that. The chain visibly doesn't rub
anywhere.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

You've checked that whilst riding? I find it interesting that
the noise ONLY happens on the power stroke.


While slowly riding up a hill under high power and then again with
applied brakes leaning against a wall. However, on Sunday I'll have
a friend take a close look while doing that.

What's really weird is that it also emits this noise while on the
largest 40T cog where it doesn't have a chance to rub against
anything in the cassette. I can clearly see that it doesn't rub at
the front derailer. My guess is that it is some sort to "teeth
disengangement" sound.

Another thing I found out is that one has to carefully and
somewhat slowly shift onto the largest cog, else the chain flies
over it and into the spokes. That is no problem though because I'll
only use that on really steep hills. For most hills the (for me
new) 36T will suffice. When I service this next time maybe I'll
take the cogs off, make an aluminum protector disc, drill it and
the 40T cog and mount that towards the spoke side. Should catch the
chain.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Joerg - in my experience this is because the rear derailleur is ever
so slightly out of alignment. If it is towards the higher cog it will
often "hop" and towards the lower side it will growl. This sort of
misalignment general is only 1/8ith or less of a turn of the rear
cable adjuster.


I have friction shifters and tried all sorts of fine adjustments. The
growl is independent of it.


You can also have a problem with a 7 speed chain on your reduced
cassette. While 7 and 8 speed gears have the same spacing between
cogs and the same cog width, some manufacturers are using 10 speed
components supposedly with wider spacers that may be not wide enough
for 10 speed cogs.


Ok, but it doesn't rub against a neighboring cog which is about the only
thing that could happen with a chain that is too wide. The growl even
happens when on the largest cogs an in perfect aligment.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Is this growl actually coming from the front derailleur? Also - is the chain lubed? Third - is the Freehub properly tightened? Last - Are the wheel bearings in rough condition?
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  #12  
Old November 23rd 18, 10:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,607
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On 2018-11-23 12:45, wrote:
On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 10:10:23 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-23 09:48,
wrote:
On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 9:29:33 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-23 08:07, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 10:59:18 AM UTC-5, Joerg
wrote:
On 2018-11-22 20:59, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 16:05:54 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

After installing a new Sunrace 40-11T cassette (minus
one cog), a new chain and a new rear derailer the road
bike can now climb hills much better. 40T as biggest
cog versus 32T before. Woohoo!

However, on the middle and three larger cogs (it's now
a 7-speed) there is a distinct vrrrt .. vrrrt sound
when under heavy load. Maybe from the chain because
with a derailer setup it'll never run 100% straight.
Hard to say. The noise appears briefly twice per pedal
crank rotation and always on the power strokes.

The chain is a KMC Z50 that should be suited for
7-speed and I looked, it doesn't rub against a neighbor
cog. Maybe a "teeth exit grinding"? On the 3rd cog from
the largest it's really weird because that has an
almost perfect chain line when on the small chain ring
up front.

Anyone heard that before? Can it simply be ignored? Or
maybe it'll go away over time?

I've had a noise from a front derailer due to the chain
rubbing on the derailer "cage".


It's definitely not that. The chain visibly doesn't rub
anywhere.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

You've checked that whilst riding? I find it interesting
that the noise ONLY happens on the power stroke.


While slowly riding up a hill under high power and then again
with applied brakes leaning against a wall. However, on Sunday
I'll have a friend take a close look while doing that.

What's really weird is that it also emits this noise while on
the largest 40T cog where it doesn't have a chance to rub
against anything in the cassette. I can clearly see that it
doesn't rub at the front derailer. My guess is that it is some
sort to "teeth disengangement" sound.

Another thing I found out is that one has to carefully and
somewhat slowly shift onto the largest cog, else the chain
flies over it and into the spokes. That is no problem though
because I'll only use that on really steep hills. For most
hills the (for me new) 36T will suffice. When I service this
next time maybe I'll take the cogs off, make an aluminum
protector disc, drill it and the 40T cog and mount that towards
the spoke side. Should catch the chain.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg - in my experience this is because the rear derailleur is
ever so slightly out of alignment. If it is towards the higher
cog it will often "hop" and towards the lower side it will growl.
This sort of misalignment general is only 1/8ith or less of a
turn of the rear cable adjuster.


I have friction shifters and tried all sorts of fine adjustments.
The growl is independent of it.


You can also have a problem with a 7 speed chain on your reduced
cassette. While 7 and 8 speed gears have the same spacing
between cogs and the same cog width, some manufacturers are using
10 speed components supposedly with wider spacers that may be not
wide enough for 10 speed cogs.


Ok, but it doesn't rub against a neighboring cog which is about the
only thing that could happen with a chain that is too wide. The
growl even happens when on the largest cogs an in perfect
aligment.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Is this growl actually coming from the front derailleur? Also - is
the chain lubed? Third - is the Freehub properly tightened? Last -
Are the wheel bearings in rough condition?


Not coming from the FD, it doesn't touch the chain anywhere. Chain is
new out of the box, factory lube. The freehub is tightened at full
torque spec but has the usual bearing play of 0.050" or so. They all
develop that on my bikes after 1000mi. It's about 5000mi old and
freehubs mostly last about 10000mi on my road bike depending on
terrain/weather. Since the freehub doesn't move versus the wheel under
load I can't imagine that making a growl.

The wheel bearings are old but adjusted well. I don't think they could
make this loud a sound.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #13  
Old November 23rd 18, 11:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Earls61[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

Do you have horizontal dropouts? Maybe try positioning the axle differently. Some other suggestions:
Verify correct chain length, verify top der pulley does not rub on bottom of cassette, check B screw adjustment, verify der hangar is aligned with hangar alignment tool. Good luck!!
  #14  
Old November 23rd 18, 11:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 493
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 2:11:49 PM UTC-8, Earls61 wrote:
Do you have horizontal dropouts? Maybe try positioning the axle differently. Some other suggestions:
Verify correct chain length, verify top der pulley does not rub on bottom of cassette, check B screw adjustment, verify der hangar is aligned with hangar alignment tool. Good luck!!


Earl, I forgot the idler pulley problems. Joerg has a 40 tooth humongous low gear and you're probably correct that his derailleur probably doesn't have enough take-up to shift into low gear and not push the top idler pulley into the cogs.
  #15  
Old November 24th 18, 12:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 348
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 09:29:58 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-11-23 08:07, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 10:59:18 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-22 20:59, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 16:05:54 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

After installing a new Sunrace 40-11T cassette (minus one cog),
a new chain and a new rear derailer the road bike can now climb
hills much better. 40T as biggest cog versus 32T before.
Woohoo!

However, on the middle and three larger cogs (it's now a
7-speed) there is a distinct vrrrt .. vrrrt sound when under
heavy load. Maybe from the chain because with a derailer setup
it'll never run 100% straight. Hard to say. The noise appears
briefly twice per pedal crank rotation and always on the power
strokes.

The chain is a KMC Z50 that should be suited for 7-speed and I
looked, it doesn't rub against a neighbor cog. Maybe a "teeth
exit grinding"? On the 3rd cog from the largest it's really
weird because that has an almost perfect chain line when on the
small chain ring up front.

Anyone heard that before? Can it simply be ignored? Or maybe
it'll go away over time?

I've had a noise from a front derailer due to the chain rubbing
on the derailer "cage".


It's definitely not that. The chain visibly doesn't rub anywhere.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


You've checked that whilst riding? I find it interesting that the
noise ONLY happens on the power stroke.


While slowly riding up a hill under high power and then again with
applied brakes leaning against a wall. However, on Sunday I'll have a
friend take a close look while doing that.

What's really weird is that it also emits this noise while on the
largest 40T cog where it doesn't have a chance to rub against anything
in the cassette. I can clearly see that it doesn't rub at the front
derailer. My guess is that it is some sort to "teeth disengangement" sound.

Another thing I found out is that one has to carefully and somewhat
slowly shift onto the largest cog, else the chain flies over it and into
the spokes. That is no problem though because I'll only use that on
really steep hills. For most hills the (for me new) 36T will suffice.
When I service this next time maybe I'll take the cogs off, make an
aluminum protector disc, drill it and the 40T cog and mount that towards
the spoke side. Should catch the chain.


That chain slipping off the large cog is often due to the derailer
stop setting. Try, with the bike either hung from a bike maintenance
stand or set bottom side up, setting the stop screw so it won't shift
onto the large cod and then adjusting it say a quarter of a turn at a
time until it will just shift.

The chain coming off the large cog and going into the spokes is not a
good thing as it tends to damage the spokes, particularly when it
comes off under load, and you may have a series of drive side spoke
breakage... how do I know all this? Because my chain came off under
load :-)

Back in the day, some bikes had a plastic plate mounted between the
cassette and the wheel to protect the spokes.

  #16  
Old November 24th 18, 01:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,607
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On 2018-11-23 14:35, wrote:
On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 2:11:49 PM UTC-8, Earls61 wrote:
Do you have horizontal dropouts?



Almost, they are angled slots. With vernier peg screws for precise axle
positioning.


... Maybe try positioning the axle differently. ...



I had tried that a lot, made no difference at all.


... Some other suggestions: Verify correct chain length,
verify top der pulley does not rub on bottom of cassette, check B
screw adjustment, verify der hangar is aligned with hangar
alignment tool. Good luck!!



I needed all the 116 links the chain came with. The top pulley is the
usual 1/4" or 5mm from the 40T cog as is customary and set by the B
screw. That position didn't make a difference either, I've tried varying
that from 1/2" to almost hitting the cog.


Earl, I forgot the idler pulley problems. Joerg has a 40 tooth
humongous low gear and you're probably correct that his derailleur
probably doesn't have enough take-up to shift into low gear and not
push the top idler pulley into the cogs.


The derailer got an extender adapter in order not to have to adjust the
B screw to an extreme position. It fits nicely now. Looks a bit weird
for a road bike to have the bottom idler be just inches off the pavement
but, getting older, man's got to do what man's got to do (John Wayne). I
just don't want to mash up these hills anymore and be able to spin some
more on those sections. Now I can.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #17  
Old November 24th 18, 01:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,607
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On 2018-11-23 15:09, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 09:29:58 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-11-23 08:07, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 10:59:18 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-22 20:59, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 16:05:54 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

After installing a new Sunrace 40-11T cassette (minus one cog),
a new chain and a new rear derailer the road bike can now climb
hills much better. 40T as biggest cog versus 32T before.
Woohoo!

However, on the middle and three larger cogs (it's now a
7-speed) there is a distinct vrrrt .. vrrrt sound when under
heavy load. Maybe from the chain because with a derailer setup
it'll never run 100% straight. Hard to say. The noise appears
briefly twice per pedal crank rotation and always on the power
strokes.

The chain is a KMC Z50 that should be suited for 7-speed and I
looked, it doesn't rub against a neighbor cog. Maybe a "teeth
exit grinding"? On the 3rd cog from the largest it's really
weird because that has an almost perfect chain line when on the
small chain ring up front.

Anyone heard that before? Can it simply be ignored? Or maybe
it'll go away over time?

I've had a noise from a front derailer due to the chain rubbing
on the derailer "cage".


It's definitely not that. The chain visibly doesn't rub anywhere.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

You've checked that whilst riding? I find it interesting that the
noise ONLY happens on the power stroke.


While slowly riding up a hill under high power and then again with
applied brakes leaning against a wall. However, on Sunday I'll have a
friend take a close look while doing that.

What's really weird is that it also emits this noise while on the
largest 40T cog where it doesn't have a chance to rub against anything
in the cassette. I can clearly see that it doesn't rub at the front
derailer. My guess is that it is some sort to "teeth disengangement" sound.

Another thing I found out is that one has to carefully and somewhat
slowly shift onto the largest cog, else the chain flies over it and into
the spokes. That is no problem though because I'll only use that on
really steep hills. For most hills the (for me new) 36T will suffice.
When I service this next time maybe I'll take the cogs off, make an
aluminum protector disc, drill it and the 40T cog and mount that towards
the spoke side. Should catch the chain.


That chain slipping off the large cog is often due to the derailer
stop setting. Try, with the bike either hung from a bike maintenance
stand or set bottom side up, setting the stop screw so it won't shift
onto the large cod and then adjusting it say a quarter of a turn at a
time until it will just shift.


I've tried that. If I set the top idler much closer than 1/4" to the 40T
cog shifting becomes laborious. VRRR .. RAT TAT TAT TRRRT KA-CLOCK.
Sounds awful. Until I can make that next cassette mod I'll just have to
shift back down to the first gear slowly.


The chain coming off the large cog and going into the spokes is not a
good thing as it tends to damage the spokes, particularly when it
comes off under load, and you may have a series of drive side spoke
breakage... how do I know all this? Because my chain came off under
load :-)


I had that happen on the MTB a lot (Dore XT indexed Shifters). There the
main casue was rock hits. Rocks keep flying into the works all the time
and then one bends the derailer hanger, and off the chain goes at the
base of the next steep hill.


Back in the day, some bikes had a plastic plate mounted between the
cassette and the wheel to protect the spokes.


That was a very good thing. I wonder why that is no longer done. Hey, I
can make one from Perspex, with embedded flashing blue LEDs :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #18  
Old November 24th 18, 01:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,434
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On 11/23/2018 12:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-23 08:07, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 10:59:18 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-22 20:59, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 16:05:54 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

After installing a new Sunrace 40-11T cassette (minus one cog),
a new chain and a new rear derailer the road bike can now climb
hills much better. 40T as biggest cog versus 32T before.
Woohoo!

However, on the middle and three larger cogs (it's now a
7-speed) there is a distinct vrrrt .. vrrrt sound when under
heavy load. Maybe from the chain because with a derailer setup
it'll never run 100% straight. Hard to say. The noise appears
briefly twice per pedal crank rotation and always on the power
strokes.

The chain is a KMC Z50 that should be suited for 7-speed and I
looked, it doesn't rub against a neighbor cog. Maybe a "teeth
exit grinding"? On the 3rd cog from the largest it's really
weird because that has an almost perfect chain line when on the
small chain ring up front.

Anyone heard that before? Can it simply be ignored? Or maybe
it'll go away over time?

I've had a noise from a front derailer due to the chain rubbing
on the derailer "cage".


It's definitely not that. The chain visibly doesn't rub anywhere.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


You've checked that whilst riding? I find it interesting that the
noise ONLY happens on the power stroke.


While slowly riding up a hill under high power and then again with
applied brakes leaning against a wall. However, on Sunday I'll have a
friend take a close look while doing that.

What's really weird is that it also emits this noise while on the
largest 40T cog where it doesn't have a chance to rub against anything
in the cassette. I can clearly see that it doesn't rub at the front
derailer. My guess is that it is some sort to "teeth disengangement" sound.

Another thing I found out is that one has to carefully and somewhat
slowly shift onto the largest cog, else the chain flies over it and into
the spokes. That is no problem though because I'll only use that on
really steep hills. For most hills the (for me new) 36T will suffice.
When I service this next time maybe I'll take the cogs off, make an
aluminum protector disc, drill it and the 40T cog and mount that towards
the spoke side. Should catch the chain.


Please remind me - why did you embark on this troublesome multi-stage
kludge, instead of just installing a third front chainring?

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #19  
Old November 24th 18, 01:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,434
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On 11/23/2018 7:37 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-23 15:09, John B Slocomb wrote:

Back in the day, some bikes had a plastic plate mounted between the
cassette and the wheel to protect the spokes.


That was a very good thing. I wonder why that is no longer done.


I've come across a couple bikes over the years that had spoke protectors
that were broken and rattling around. There's that, and of course
there's the fact that if your system is operating properly, you simply
don't need a spoke protector.

I think the last time I used one was about 1975. I've never needed it.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #20  
Old November 24th 18, 02:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 200
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-23 09:48, wrote:
On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 9:29:33 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-23 08:07, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 10:59:18 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-22 20:59, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 16:05:54 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

After installing a new Sunrace 40-11T cassette (minus one
cog), a new chain and a new rear derailer the road bike can
now climb hills much better. 40T as biggest cog versus 32T
before. Woohoo!

However, on the middle and three larger cogs (it's now a
7-speed) there is a distinct vrrrt .. vrrrt sound when
under heavy load. Maybe from the chain because with a
derailer setup it'll never run 100% straight. Hard to say.
The noise appears briefly twice per pedal crank rotation
and always on the power strokes.

The chain is a KMC Z50 that should be suited for 7-speed
and I looked, it doesn't rub against a neighbor cog. Maybe
a "teeth exit grinding"? On the 3rd cog from the largest
it's really weird because that has an almost perfect chain
line when on the small chain ring up front.

Anyone heard that before? Can it simply be ignored? Or
maybe it'll go away over time?

I've had a noise from a front derailer due to the chain
rubbing on the derailer "cage".


It's definitely not that. The chain visibly doesn't rub
anywhere.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

You've checked that whilst riding? I find it interesting that
the noise ONLY happens on the power stroke.


While slowly riding up a hill under high power and then again with
applied brakes leaning against a wall. However, on Sunday I'll have
a friend take a close look while doing that.

What's really weird is that it also emits this noise while on the
largest 40T cog where it doesn't have a chance to rub against
anything in the cassette. I can clearly see that it doesn't rub at
the front derailer. My guess is that it is some sort to "teeth
disengangement" sound.

Another thing I found out is that one has to carefully and
somewhat slowly shift onto the largest cog, else the chain flies
over it and into the spokes. That is no problem though because I'll
only use that on really steep hills. For most hills the (for me
new) 36T will suffice. When I service this next time maybe I'll
take the cogs off, make an aluminum protector disc, drill it and
the 40T cog and mount that towards the spoke side. Should catch the
chain.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


Joerg - in my experience this is because the rear derailleur is ever
so slightly out of alignment. If it is towards the higher cog it will
often "hop" and towards the lower side it will growl. This sort of
misalignment general is only 1/8ith or less of a turn of the rear
cable adjuster.


I have friction shifters and tried all sorts of fine adjustments. The
growl is independent of it.


You can also have a problem with a 7 speed chain on your reduced
cassette. While 7 and 8 speed gears have the same spacing between
cogs and the same cog width, some manufacturers are using 10 speed
components supposedly with wider spacers that may be not wide enough
for 10 speed cogs.


Ok, but it doesn't rub against a neighboring cog which is about the only
thing that could happen with a chain that is too wide. The growl even
happens when on the largest cogs an in perfect aligment.


Worn front chainring disagreeing with your new chain, perhaps?

 




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