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Noise from new Sunrace cassette



 
 
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  #21  
Old November 24th 18, 02:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B Slocomb
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Posts: 348
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:37:07 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-11-23 15:09, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 09:29:58 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-11-23 08:07, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 10:59:18 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-22 20:59, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 16:05:54 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

After installing a new Sunrace 40-11T cassette (minus one cog),
a new chain and a new rear derailer the road bike can now climb
hills much better. 40T as biggest cog versus 32T before.
Woohoo!

However, on the middle and three larger cogs (it's now a
7-speed) there is a distinct vrrrt .. vrrrt sound when under
heavy load. Maybe from the chain because with a derailer setup
it'll never run 100% straight. Hard to say. The noise appears
briefly twice per pedal crank rotation and always on the power
strokes.

The chain is a KMC Z50 that should be suited for 7-speed and I
looked, it doesn't rub against a neighbor cog. Maybe a "teeth
exit grinding"? On the 3rd cog from the largest it's really
weird because that has an almost perfect chain line when on the
small chain ring up front.

Anyone heard that before? Can it simply be ignored? Or maybe
it'll go away over time?

I've had a noise from a front derailer due to the chain rubbing
on the derailer "cage".


It's definitely not that. The chain visibly doesn't rub anywhere.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

You've checked that whilst riding? I find it interesting that the
noise ONLY happens on the power stroke.


While slowly riding up a hill under high power and then again with
applied brakes leaning against a wall. However, on Sunday I'll have a
friend take a close look while doing that.

What's really weird is that it also emits this noise while on the
largest 40T cog where it doesn't have a chance to rub against anything
in the cassette. I can clearly see that it doesn't rub at the front
derailer. My guess is that it is some sort to "teeth disengangement" sound.

Another thing I found out is that one has to carefully and somewhat
slowly shift onto the largest cog, else the chain flies over it and into
the spokes. That is no problem though because I'll only use that on
really steep hills. For most hills the (for me new) 36T will suffice.
When I service this next time maybe I'll take the cogs off, make an
aluminum protector disc, drill it and the 40T cog and mount that towards
the spoke side. Should catch the chain.


That chain slipping off the large cog is often due to the derailer
stop setting. Try, with the bike either hung from a bike maintenance
stand or set bottom side up, setting the stop screw so it won't shift
onto the large cod and then adjusting it say a quarter of a turn at a
time until it will just shift.


I've tried that. If I set the top idler much closer than 1/4" to the 40T
cog shifting becomes laborious. VRRR .. RAT TAT TAT TRRRT KA-CLOCK.
Sounds awful. Until I can make that next cassette mod I'll just have to
shift back down to the first gear slowly.


The chain coming off the large cog and going into the spokes is not a
good thing as it tends to damage the spokes, particularly when it
comes off under load, and you may have a series of drive side spoke
breakage... how do I know all this? Because my chain came off under
load :-)


I had that happen on the MTB a lot (Dore XT indexed Shifters). There the
main casue was rock hits. Rocks keep flying into the works all the time
and then one bends the derailer hanger, and off the chain goes at the
base of the next steep hill.


Back in the day, some bikes had a plastic plate mounted between the
cassette and the wheel to protect the spokes.


That was a very good thing. I wonder why that is no longer done. Hey, I
can make one from Perspex, with embedded flashing blue LEDs :-)


I'd guess that it isn't used today as the pseudo racers thought it
looked "dorkie" and removed them before they took the bike out of the
shop.
..
Ads
  #22  
Old November 24th 18, 03:23 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Earls61[_2_]
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Posts: 3
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

Well, the only other thing I can think of is not related to your recent upgrade. In the past, when I have experienced a noise under power, it has been the cartridge bottom bracket failing. If that’s ok, then maybe check some other items that are not related to the upgrade, for instance, pedals, cleats, etc. Also check for frame breakage, stem and handlebar security, anything that strains when under power. Other than that, I am out of ideas.
This armchair troubleshooting across the internet only goes so far! I would need to see the bike to proceed any further. Please post back when you find it.

  #23  
Old November 24th 18, 04:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,607
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On 2018-11-23 17:13, Ralph Barone wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-23 09:48, wrote:
On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 9:29:33 AM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-23 08:07, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 10:59:18 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-22 20:59, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 16:05:54 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

After installing a new Sunrace 40-11T cassette (minus one
cog), a new chain and a new rear derailer the road bike can
now climb hills much better. 40T as biggest cog versus 32T
before. Woohoo!

However, on the middle and three larger cogs (it's now a
7-speed) there is a distinct vrrrt .. vrrrt sound when
under heavy load. Maybe from the chain because with a
derailer setup it'll never run 100% straight. Hard to say.
The noise appears briefly twice per pedal crank rotation
and always on the power strokes.

The chain is a KMC Z50 that should be suited for 7-speed
and I looked, it doesn't rub against a neighbor cog. Maybe
a "teeth exit grinding"? On the 3rd cog from the largest
it's really weird because that has an almost perfect chain
line when on the small chain ring up front.

Anyone heard that before? Can it simply be ignored? Or
maybe it'll go away over time?

I've had a noise from a front derailer due to the chain
rubbing on the derailer "cage".


It's definitely not that. The chain visibly doesn't rub
anywhere.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

You've checked that whilst riding? I find it interesting that
the noise ONLY happens on the power stroke.


While slowly riding up a hill under high power and then again with
applied brakes leaning against a wall. However, on Sunday I'll have
a friend take a close look while doing that.

What's really weird is that it also emits this noise while on the
largest 40T cog where it doesn't have a chance to rub against
anything in the cassette. I can clearly see that it doesn't rub at
the front derailer. My guess is that it is some sort to "teeth
disengangement" sound.

Another thing I found out is that one has to carefully and
somewhat slowly shift onto the largest cog, else the chain flies
over it and into the spokes. That is no problem though because I'll
only use that on really steep hills. For most hills the (for me
new) 36T will suffice. When I service this next time maybe I'll
take the cogs off, make an aluminum protector disc, drill it and
the 40T cog and mount that towards the spoke side. Should catch the
chain.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg - in my experience this is because the rear derailleur is ever
so slightly out of alignment. If it is towards the higher cog it will
often "hop" and towards the lower side it will growl. This sort of
misalignment general is only 1/8ith or less of a turn of the rear
cable adjuster.


I have friction shifters and tried all sorts of fine adjustments. The
growl is independent of it.


You can also have a problem with a 7 speed chain on your reduced
cassette. While 7 and 8 speed gears have the same spacing between
cogs and the same cog width, some manufacturers are using 10 speed
components supposedly with wider spacers that may be not wide enough
for 10 speed cogs.


Ok, but it doesn't rub against a neighboring cog which is about the only
thing that could happen with a chain that is too wide. The growl even
happens when on the largest cogs an in perfect aligment.


Worn front chainring disagreeing with your new chain, perhaps?


Theoretically possible but it's happening with both of them and the
noise seems to be coming from back.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #24  
Old November 24th 18, 04:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,607
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On 2018-11-23 18:23, Earls61 wrote:
Well, the only other thing I can think of is not related to your
recent upgrade. In the past, when I have experienced a noise under
power, it has been the cartridge bottom bracket failing. If that’s
ok, then maybe check some other items that are not related to the
upgrade, for instance, pedals, cleats, etc. Also check for frame
breakage, stem and handlebar security, anything that strains when
under power. Other than that, I am out of ideas. This armchair
troubleshooting across the internet only goes so far! I would need to
see the bike to proceed any further. Please post back when you find
it.



I will. It happened immediately after installing a new cassette, new
chain and new rear derailer so chances are 99% it's one of those.
However, I need a 2nd person to ride next to me who has better
directional hearing (mine partially went in an army accident) and who
can closely watch what the frame/chainline/teeth do when pedaling hard
on the stopped bike (brakes held).

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #25  
Old November 24th 18, 04:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,607
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On 2018-11-23 17:22, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 16:37:07 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-11-23 15:09, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 09:29:58 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-11-23 08:07, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Friday, November 23, 2018 at 10:59:18 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-11-22 20:59, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 16:05:54 -0800, Joerg
wrote:

After installing a new Sunrace 40-11T cassette (minus one cog),
a new chain and a new rear derailer the road bike can now climb
hills much better. 40T as biggest cog versus 32T before.
Woohoo!

However, on the middle and three larger cogs (it's now a
7-speed) there is a distinct vrrrt .. vrrrt sound when under
heavy load. Maybe from the chain because with a derailer setup
it'll never run 100% straight. Hard to say. The noise appears
briefly twice per pedal crank rotation and always on the power
strokes.

The chain is a KMC Z50 that should be suited for 7-speed and I
looked, it doesn't rub against a neighbor cog. Maybe a "teeth
exit grinding"? On the 3rd cog from the largest it's really
weird because that has an almost perfect chain line when on the
small chain ring up front.

Anyone heard that before? Can it simply be ignored? Or maybe
it'll go away over time?

I've had a noise from a front derailer due to the chain rubbing
on the derailer "cage".


It's definitely not that. The chain visibly doesn't rub anywhere.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

You've checked that whilst riding? I find it interesting that the
noise ONLY happens on the power stroke.


While slowly riding up a hill under high power and then again with
applied brakes leaning against a wall. However, on Sunday I'll have a
friend take a close look while doing that.

What's really weird is that it also emits this noise while on the
largest 40T cog where it doesn't have a chance to rub against anything
in the cassette. I can clearly see that it doesn't rub at the front
derailer. My guess is that it is some sort to "teeth disengangement" sound.

Another thing I found out is that one has to carefully and somewhat
slowly shift onto the largest cog, else the chain flies over it and into
the spokes. That is no problem though because I'll only use that on
really steep hills. For most hills the (for me new) 36T will suffice.
When I service this next time maybe I'll take the cogs off, make an
aluminum protector disc, drill it and the 40T cog and mount that towards
the spoke side. Should catch the chain.

That chain slipping off the large cog is often due to the derailer
stop setting. Try, with the bike either hung from a bike maintenance
stand or set bottom side up, setting the stop screw so it won't shift
onto the large cod and then adjusting it say a quarter of a turn at a
time until it will just shift.


I've tried that. If I set the top idler much closer than 1/4" to the 40T
cog shifting becomes laborious. VRRR .. RAT TAT TAT TRRRT KA-CLOCK.
Sounds awful. Until I can make that next cassette mod I'll just have to
shift back down to the first gear slowly.


The chain coming off the large cog and going into the spokes is not a
good thing as it tends to damage the spokes, particularly when it
comes off under load, and you may have a series of drive side spoke
breakage... how do I know all this? Because my chain came off under
load :-)


I had that happen on the MTB a lot (Dore XT indexed Shifters). There the
main casue was rock hits. Rocks keep flying into the works all the time
and then one bends the derailer hanger, and off the chain goes at the
base of the next steep hill.


Back in the day, some bikes had a plastic plate mounted between the
cassette and the wheel to protect the spokes.


That was a very good thing. I wonder why that is no longer done. Hey, I
can make one from Perspex, with embedded flashing blue LEDs :-)


I'd guess that it isn't used today as the pseudo racers thought it
looked "dorkie" and removed them before they took the bike out of the
shop.


Yeah, they also think side reflectors are dorky. That's how I almost hit
a cyclist at night. He blew a stop sign, was on a dark frame, dark
clothes. IOW he was nuts.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #26  
Old November 25th 18, 12:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,819
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On Thursday, November 22, 2018 at 7:05:29 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
After installing a new Sunrace 40-11T cassette (minus one cog), a new
chain and a new rear derailer the road bike can now climb hills much
better. 40T as biggest cog versus 32T before. Woohoo!

However, on the middle and three larger cogs (it's now a 7-speed) there
is a distinct vrrrt .. vrrrt sound when under heavy load. Maybe from the
chain because with a derailer setup it'll never run 100% straight. Hard
to say. The noise appears briefly twice per pedal crank rotation and
always on the power strokes.

The chain is a KMC Z50 that should be suited for 7-speed and I looked,
it doesn't rub against a neighbor cog. Maybe a "teeth exit grinding"? On
the 3rd cog from the largest it's really weird because that has an
almost perfect chain line when on the small chain ring up front.

Anyone heard that before? Can it simply be ignored? Or maybe it'll go
away over time?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


When you installed your hacked cassette you didn't put the individual cogs on backwards did you?

Still thinking about whet might be causing that noise.

Cheers
  #27  
Old November 25th 18, 03:55 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,434
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On 11/24/2018 10:24 AM, Joerg wrote:

Yeah, they also think side reflectors are dorky. That's how I almost hit
a cyclist at night. He blew a stop sign, was on a dark frame, dark
clothes. IOW he was nuts.


But the absence of side reflectors is the least of his problems.

I assume he had no legal lights on the bike. That's problem #1. Blowing
the stop sign was problem #2. The dark clothes, dark bike frame and lack
of reflectors probably wouldn't have made a difference. And I don't want
to see motorists blaming victims by saying "His bike and clothes were
the wrong color."

(If he did have legal lights and you failed to spot him, then your lack
of observation was problem #1.)

In a potential T impact like you describe, side reflectors are usually
not in the car's headlight beams early enough to make a difference.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #28  
Old November 25th 18, 04:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,607
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On 2018-11-24 15:53, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2018 at 7:05:29 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
After installing a new Sunrace 40-11T cassette (minus one cog), a
new chain and a new rear derailer the road bike can now climb hills
much better. 40T as biggest cog versus 32T before. Woohoo!

However, on the middle and three larger cogs (it's now a 7-speed)
there is a distinct vrrrt .. vrrrt sound when under heavy load.
Maybe from the chain because with a derailer setup it'll never run
100% straight. Hard to say. The noise appears briefly twice per
pedal crank rotation and always on the power strokes.

The chain is a KMC Z50 that should be suited for 7-speed and I
looked, it doesn't rub against a neighbor cog. Maybe a "teeth exit
grinding"? On the 3rd cog from the largest it's really weird
because that has an almost perfect chain line when on the small
chain ring up front.

Anyone heard that before? Can it simply be ignored? Or maybe it'll
go away over time?

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


When you installed your hacked cassette you didn't put the individual
cogs on backwards did you?


No but I might do that with some once they are worn. Done it before and
it has never caused growling noises. I don't care much about losing the
HG advantage and milliseconds during shifts.


Still thinking about whet might be causing that noise.


After church I'll do a ride with a buddy who is a machinist. Hopefully
we'll find out what the noise is because next week there'd be a longer
ride with a few guys where I don't want to become the one whose bike croaks.

BTW, the machinist rides a beautifully restored (but modified) Peugeot
PX-10 from 1972.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #29  
Old November 25th 18, 05:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 470
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On 11/24/2018 3:53 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2018 at 7:05:29 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
After installing a new Sunrace 40-11T cassette (minus one cog), a new
chain and a new rear derailer the road bike can now climb hills much
better. 40T as biggest cog versus 32T before. Woohoo!

However, on the middle and three larger cogs (it's now a 7-speed) there
is a distinct vrrrt .. vrrrt sound when under heavy load. Maybe from the
chain because with a derailer setup it'll never run 100% straight. Hard
to say. The noise appears briefly twice per pedal crank rotation and
always on the power strokes.

The chain is a KMC Z50 that should be suited for 7-speed and I looked,
it doesn't rub against a neighbor cog. Maybe a "teeth exit grinding"? On
the 3rd cog from the largest it's really weird because that has an
almost perfect chain line when on the small chain ring up front.

Anyone heard that before? Can it simply be ignored? Or maybe it'll go
away over time?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


When you installed your hacked cassette you didn't put the individual cogs on backwards did you?


Worth checking, but probably not possible with "modern"
Shimano-compatible cassettes. I think the Shimano spline pattern last
allowed cog-reversal before cogs were given shifting ramps, i.e. in the
70s-early 80s.

Mark J.


  #30  
Old November 25th 18, 06:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,500
Default Noise from new Sunrace cassette

On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 8:27:18 AM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 11/24/2018 3:53 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2018 at 7:05:29 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
After installing a new Sunrace 40-11T cassette (minus one cog), a new
chain and a new rear derailer the road bike can now climb hills much
better. 40T as biggest cog versus 32T before. Woohoo!

However, on the middle and three larger cogs (it's now a 7-speed) there
is a distinct vrrrt .. vrrrt sound when under heavy load. Maybe from the
chain because with a derailer setup it'll never run 100% straight. Hard
to say. The noise appears briefly twice per pedal crank rotation and
always on the power strokes.

The chain is a KMC Z50 that should be suited for 7-speed and I looked,
it doesn't rub against a neighbor cog. Maybe a "teeth exit grinding"? On
the 3rd cog from the largest it's really weird because that has an
almost perfect chain line when on the small chain ring up front.

Anyone heard that before? Can it simply be ignored? Or maybe it'll go
away over time?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


When you installed your hacked cassette you didn't put the individual cogs on backwards did you?


Worth checking, but probably not possible with "modern"
Shimano-compatible cassettes. I think the Shimano spline pattern last
allowed cog-reversal before cogs were given shifting ramps, i.e. in the
70s-early 80s.

Mark J.


Yes, non-symmetrical splines on Hyperglide cassettes. You can't flip them.

-- Jay Beattie.
 




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