A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Danger from CF rims



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old December 2nd 18, 03:39 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,819
Default Danger from CF rims

On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 3:24:08 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 15:05:53 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 3:23:36 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 30 Nov 2018 07:22:40 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 5:41:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/29/2018 7:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 3:05:02 PM UTC-8, wrote:
I previously bought a set of 50 mm deep Carbon Fiber rims. These were clinchers and were 23 mm wide on the brake surfaces. These have performed faultlessly.

But I didn't want to have to carry around all of the 2 lbs of flat repair stuff - the Topeak bag, multitool, two spare tubes, two CO2 cartridges and the tool to use them and a patch kit ifneeded.

So I decided to go to tubeless as I have successfully used on Campy and Fulcrum aluminum wheelsets. They were selling the 25 mm wide tubeless wheelsets nearly as cheaply as the clincher rims.

I bought a set and they arrived. I also wanted to try 28 mm tires on my Colnago so I was mounting a set of Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires like I had used on my Pinarello Stelvio. The front appeared to mount and hold air as normal for a new mount. Usually it takes a couple of days for all of the small leaks around the sidewalls to seal. You just pump it up until it hold air pretty well and then go for a ride and that jiggles everything into place and you don't have to worry about flats again.

When I was inflating the rear tire and inflating it, there was a loud POP! and I put the wheel into the wheelstand and it was an inch out of true. I assumed this was from delamination but as the wheel was spinning in the stand the air was draining out of it and it came back into true. I pulled the tire off and looked carefully at the entire rim but couldn't see anything. I contacted the seller on Ebay and they sent me a rim which I've covered elsewhere.

In any case I ordered a second wheelset from another manufacturer. They came in pretty fast so they must have gotten to the boat just as it was leaving.

I discovered with the apparently good front wheel that there's insufficient room on the CLX 3.0 to use 28 mm tires. Conveniently Vittoria just released the Corsa Speed tubeless tires so I ordered a set from ProBikeKit. It took a month to get here so it was just a couple of days ago I tried putting them on. I had a lot of problems getting them to push up onto the step that all tubeless rims have. In fact I used up 5 CO2 cartridges without getting one properly mounted. So I had to order another lifetime supply. I expected them to arrive in another week but they were here this morning!

I mounted the new tires and inflated them and they didn't fill properly still. They were spraying the sealant all over the place. Finally they seemed to mount properly. The air pressure was low from all of the leakage getting them on properly. so I stuck a pump on and started pumping them up at around 65 psi they started TICing and when I got to 80 PSI they exploded loudly and the way the tire felt I thought that it had broken the bead. I tried the other wheel and it did the same thing. When the pressure got to 70 psi or so it began making funny noises and at 80 psi BANG!

I called Vittoria America up and gave them a piece of my mind and they were the nicest people in the world and just gave me a return ID and said that they would replace them.

So I went through the process of taking them off with all of that sealant inside. I got them off and there didn't seem to be anything wrong with the tires. So I rubbed by fingers along the top of the rims and one was delaminated for about 10 inches while the other was delaminated a third of the way around the one side of the rim. I kept the wheel box but I cannot return them through Ebay until I communicate with the seller.

Now the tube bed on the clincher wheels is completely different than that of the tubeless so I don't expect any trouble with them. But what is important to note is that probably all 50 mm deep carbon rims are made by the same manufacturer. This makes them all suspect no matter whose decal is on the rims.

If you want the advantages of a good aero section that you can get from carbon 50 mm wheels you should think more about a clincher set. These have more re-enforcement around the brake area.

WTF? You and cheap carbon wheels should not be on the same planet together. Go get some decent aluminum rims and call it good -- or some CF/aluminum hybrids like the DuraAce. They're a good value and getting cheaper because of the shift to disc wheels. You can skip the special brake pads and sketchy wet-weather braking -- or in your case, hot weather braking on long descents. For most people, CF rims are a solution in search of a problem.

-- Jay Beattie.


I linked earlier to Campagnolo wheels but Tom seems hellbent
on incrementally financing the People's Navy which is
building supercarriers.

Andrew, as I explained to you before - Mavic, Fulcrum and Campy wheel components are almost entirely made in China or Taiwan. They send the components to Romania or Italy or France for assembly which allows these companies to claim place of origin.

Most carbon rims are made in China from prepreg from Japan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XqJ9eZUG58

Zipp wheels are made in China by SRAM.

Probikekit which usually has the cheapest wheel prices around are quoting almost $2,000 for a 50 mm deep Shimano wheelset and they ONLY have Shimano freehubs. Do you have some other source?

It appears that all of these companies have been having trouble with delamination and that is why they are changing over to aluminum hubs with carbon fiber fairings on them. Most of these are between 200 and 400 grams heavier per set.

So as I said, it this is a warning that these tubeless rims do not work and they in all likelihood do not work for any manufacturer.

Or we can pretend like Jay that if they are "made in America" they would work fine.

Gee Tom, yet another example of your fantasies.

ENVE, located in Ogden, Utah, makes carbon fiber wheels and guarantees
them for 5 years:

"We warrant all products to be free from defects in materials or
workmanship for five years from the original purchase date (valid
proof of purchase required)."

And, have 50 dealers in and around San Francisco (50 mile radius).


cheers,

John B.

John, ask Jay what a warranty is worth. The wheels I bought have a two year warranty on them.


Yes, of course. Just carry them back to China and they will likely
replace them. What is a round trip to, oh say, Shanghai, cost these
days. In contract there are, as I told you, some 50 dealers in driving
distance to San Francisco.

As for Jay, he has mentioned a number of times breaking a bike and
having it replaced under warranty.


A warranty is only as good as the seller. Cannondale has been great. Even when my SuperSix got destroyed in the roof rack incident, Cannondale gave me a discount on a new bike. It's like maintaining addicts -- give them drugs at a discount! The local seller, Western Bikeworks, is also a great shop. Sorry about the shameless plugs, but good sellers should be rewarded -- as I did today by spending a bunch of money at Western for wear parts.

This is not to say that a Chinese internet seller of CF wheels with questionable pedigree is not going to honor its warranty. It may want to protect its already shaky reputation -- at least until it can rebrand and get a new name and URL. TK may get a prompt replacement wheel. We'll see.


-- Jay Beattie.


Not to mention the cost of having to ship those wheels back to China.

Cheers
Ads
  #22  
Old December 2nd 18, 05:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,855
Default Danger from CF rims

On 12/1/2018 4:58 PM, wrote:
On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 12:17:49 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 10:07:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 9:33:15 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 7:28:14 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 5:24:01 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 3:05:02 PM UTC-8, wrote:
I previously bought a set of 50 mm deep Carbon Fiber rims. These were clinchers and were 23 mm wide on the brake surfaces. These have performed faultlessly.

But I didn't want to have to carry around all of the 2 lbs of flat repair stuff - the Topeak bag, multitool, two spare tubes, two CO2 cartridges and the tool to use them and a patch kit ifneeded.

So I decided to go to tubeless as I have successfully used on Campy and Fulcrum aluminum wheelsets. They were selling the 25 mm wide tubeless wheelsets nearly as cheaply as the clincher rims.

I bought a set and they arrived. I also wanted to try 28 mm tires on my Colnago so I was mounting a set of Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires like I had used on my Pinarello Stelvio. The front appeared to mount and hold air as normal for a new mount. Usually it takes a couple of days for all of the small leaks around the sidewalls to seal. You just pump it up until it hold air pretty well and then go for a ride and that jiggles everything into place and you don't have to worry about flats again.

When I was inflating the rear tire and inflating it, there was a loud POP! and I put the wheel into the wheelstand and it was an inch out of true. I assumed this was from delamination but as the wheel was spinning in the stand the air was draining out of it and it came back into true. I pulled the tire off and looked carefully at the entire rim but couldn't see anything. I contacted the seller on Ebay and they sent me a rim which I've covered elsewhere.

In any case I ordered a second wheelset from another manufacturer. They came in pretty fast so they must have gotten to the boat just as it was leaving.

I discovered with the apparently good front wheel that there's insufficient room on the CLX 3.0 to use 28 mm tires. Conveniently Vittoria just released the Corsa Speed tubeless tires so I ordered a set from ProBikeKit. It took a month to get here so it was just a couple of days ago I tried putting them on. I had a lot of problems getting them to push up onto the step that all tubeless rims have. In fact I used up 5 CO2 cartridges without getting one properly mounted. So I had to order another lifetime supply. I expected them to arrive in another week but they were here this morning!

I mounted the new tires and inflated them and they didn't fill properly still. They were spraying the sealant all over the place. Finally they seemed to mount properly. The air pressure was low from all of the leakage getting them on properly. so I stuck a pump on and started pumping them up at around 65 psi they started TICing and when I got to 80 PSI they exploded loudly and the way the tire felt I thought that it had broken the bead. I tried the other wheel and it did the same thing. When the pressure got to 70 psi or so it began making funny noises and at 80 psi BANG!

I called Vittoria America up and gave them a piece of my mind and they were the nicest people in the world and just gave me a return ID and said that they would replace them.

So I went through the process of taking them off with all of that sealant inside. I got them off and there didn't seem to be anything wrong with the tires. So I rubbed by fingers along the top of the rims and one was delaminated for about 10 inches while the other was delaminated a third of the way around the one side of the rim. I kept the wheel box but I cannot return them through Ebay until I communicate with the seller.

Now the tube bed on the clincher wheels is completely different than that of the tubeless so I don't expect any trouble with them. But what is important to note is that probably all 50 mm deep carbon rims are made by the same manufacturer. This makes them all suspect no matter whose decal is on the rims.

If you want the advantages of a good aero section that you can get from carbon 50 mm wheels you should think more about a clincher set. These have more re-enforcement around the brake area.

WTF? You and cheap carbon wheels should not be on the same planet together. Go get some decent aluminum rims and call it good -- or some CF/aluminum hybrids like the DuraAce. They're a good value and getting cheaper because of the shift to disc wheels. You can skip the special brake pads and sketchy wet-weather braking -- or in your case, hot weather braking on long descents. For most people, CF rims are a solution in search of a problem.

-- Jay Beattie.

Just out of curiosity - how many miles do you put in a year? How much climbing? What sort of bikes do you ride? Since you don't seem to be aware that DuraAce doesn't offer Campy freehubs I have to question what sort of riding you do.

I don't keep track of your equipment choices. Sorry.

To answer your question, I ride 5-10,000 miles a year, depending on the year -- probably 7,000-ish average. Maybe 5-10K climbing a week, which will ratchet back during ski season. Purely commute climbing is about 2K a week because I have to climb a minimum of 400 feet to get home every night, and I can go home directly over the West Hills for 1,100 feet of climbing in a short distance. Doing 5K of climbing on a single ride is not a big deal during the summer. We have a lot of hills -- but alas, no major climbs like Mt. Hamilton until you get well out of town. The Santa Clara Valley was better for long climbs close in. You have to string short 2-4 mile climbs together around town. For longer climbs, you have to head to the Mt. Hood territory. Great gravel riding.
https://ridewithgps.com/photos/961734/large.jpg

Bikes are Emonda SLR9 (pro deal from client Trek -- thank you Trek, awesome bike), Cannondale Synapse (fast rain bike -- insurance replacement for stolen Roubaix), Norco Search 105 CF gravel bike ($1,500! -- incredible deal at Western Bikeworks) and a Cannondale CAADX commuter (warranty replacement frame), with a leaking BR-RS785 front disc caliper, which is a whole other story. I also have a 1970 Raleigh Pro track bike from my track racing era -- now for riding rollers in the basement. This collection does not include my son's bikes. The garage looks like a bike shop.

My only expensive wheels are some Dura Ace C35s and the HED Ardennes discs on the Synapse. I also have some OE wheels and wheels I built on a variety of aluminum rims. I have no pure CF wheels and don't anticipate getting any. I would never buy a FleaBay Chinese CF wheel.

There is a reason that most of the Pro teams use Campy. Though often I wonder why since my one Ultegra bike seems to work very well except the shifters are extremely sensitive to getting dust in the mechanism after which they are throw-away.

There is a reason that most pro teams use Shimano. https://bikerumor.com/2017/07/25/shi...our-de-france/

I rode the same 9sp 105 levers on my commuter for 15 years -- in rain, snow, mud, etc., etc. My son had an Ultegra left/rear shifter seize up. That's the only STI fatality since 1992, IIRC.

-- Jay Beattie.

OK, you ride a good deal. You have good equipment. Then why aren't you aware that most of the wheels built today are in China? Hell, Except for 105, Ultegra and DuraAce groups everything Shimano makes is made in mainland China.


From what I can tell, you bought knock-off Chinese wheels of unknown pedigree on eBay. It's like buying a Chinarello or some open-mold grab bag bike frame made after-hours from floor scraps. Maybe you luck out and maybe you don't.

If you buy Shimano, Trek, Specialized, etc., you are also getting their QC and oversight. Shimano over-lords are watching every move of those inscrutable Chinese factory workers! Welcome to Nanjing 2.0! Actually, though, they ensure that the factories are ISO certified and are producing quality products. And, BTW:

"Approximately 90% of Mavic aluminum rims are produced [in France], with the other 10% being made in Asia,’ said Mavic’s Michel Lethenet. ‘And this 10% is made up mostly of Mavic’s more entry-level wheels not suited for high-performance road cycling and mountain biking; those are made here in St. Trevier.’ Mavic’s carbon rims are designed and prototyped at the company’s headquarters in Annecy, France, while mass-production of the carbon rims is carried out in a factory in Romania."

https://roadbikeaction.com/being-the...s-rim-factory/

Also, way more pro teams use Shimano.

"Of the 18 WorldTour teams, 14 use Shimano drivetrain components either fully or partly and a 15th team in Katusha-Alpecin use Shimano direct mount brakes along with their SRAM drivetrain."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...-bike-guide-1/


Campagnolo is used by three of 18 WorldTour teams. With teams going to discs, the number will drop further.

Dump Campy and get some nice Shimano wheels and Di2. It's totally unnecessary, but great for shifting under load -- and you get that little squeak when you shift gears. It's the sound of technology!


-- Jay Beattie.


I'm pretty sure that these wheels as clinchers were sold by many big name companies with $1,5000 price tags on them. The problem is that the forces on a tubeless rim are different and you can see by looking at all of the new wheels that they are changing over to aluminum rims with molded on carbon aero fairings.

I don't think that this was done so that you could use rubber brake pads but because tubeless tires are becoming real popular and their testing showed exactly what mine has.


I don't understand.
Would you explain which forces are different and why and to
what significant extent?


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #23  
Old December 2nd 18, 06:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 493
Default Danger from CF rims

On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 3:24:08 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 15:05:53 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 3:23:36 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 30 Nov 2018 07:22:40 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 5:41:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/29/2018 7:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 3:05:02 PM UTC-8, wrote:
I previously bought a set of 50 mm deep Carbon Fiber rims. These were clinchers and were 23 mm wide on the brake surfaces. These have performed faultlessly.

But I didn't want to have to carry around all of the 2 lbs of flat repair stuff - the Topeak bag, multitool, two spare tubes, two CO2 cartridges and the tool to use them and a patch kit ifneeded.

So I decided to go to tubeless as I have successfully used on Campy and Fulcrum aluminum wheelsets. They were selling the 25 mm wide tubeless wheelsets nearly as cheaply as the clincher rims.

I bought a set and they arrived. I also wanted to try 28 mm tires on my Colnago so I was mounting a set of Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires like I had used on my Pinarello Stelvio. The front appeared to mount and hold air as normal for a new mount. Usually it takes a couple of days for all of the small leaks around the sidewalls to seal. You just pump it up until it hold air pretty well and then go for a ride and that jiggles everything into place and you don't have to worry about flats again.

When I was inflating the rear tire and inflating it, there was a loud POP! and I put the wheel into the wheelstand and it was an inch out of true. I assumed this was from delamination but as the wheel was spinning in the stand the air was draining out of it and it came back into true. I pulled the tire off and looked carefully at the entire rim but couldn't see anything. I contacted the seller on Ebay and they sent me a rim which I've covered elsewhere.

In any case I ordered a second wheelset from another manufacturer. They came in pretty fast so they must have gotten to the boat just as it was leaving.

I discovered with the apparently good front wheel that there's insufficient room on the CLX 3.0 to use 28 mm tires. Conveniently Vittoria just released the Corsa Speed tubeless tires so I ordered a set from ProBikeKit. It took a month to get here so it was just a couple of days ago I tried putting them on. I had a lot of problems getting them to push up onto the step that all tubeless rims have. In fact I used up 5 CO2 cartridges without getting one properly mounted. So I had to order another lifetime supply. I expected them to arrive in another week but they were here this morning!

I mounted the new tires and inflated them and they didn't fill properly still. They were spraying the sealant all over the place. Finally they seemed to mount properly. The air pressure was low from all of the leakage getting them on properly. so I stuck a pump on and started pumping them up at around 65 psi they started TICing and when I got to 80 PSI they exploded loudly and the way the tire felt I thought that it had broken the bead.. I tried the other wheel and it did the same thing. When the pressure got to 70 psi or so it began making funny noises and at 80 psi BANG!

I called Vittoria America up and gave them a piece of my mind and they were the nicest people in the world and just gave me a return ID and said that they would replace them.

So I went through the process of taking them off with all of that sealant inside. I got them off and there didn't seem to be anything wrong with the tires. So I rubbed by fingers along the top of the rims and one was delaminated for about 10 inches while the other was delaminated a third of the way around the one side of the rim. I kept the wheel box but I cannot return them through Ebay until I communicate with the seller.

Now the tube bed on the clincher wheels is completely different than that of the tubeless so I don't expect any trouble with them. But what is important to note is that probably all 50 mm deep carbon rims are made by the same manufacturer. This makes them all suspect no matter whose decal is on the rims.

If you want the advantages of a good aero section that you can get from carbon 50 mm wheels you should think more about a clincher set. These have more re-enforcement around the brake area.

WTF? You and cheap carbon wheels should not be on the same planet together. Go get some decent aluminum rims and call it good -- or some CF/aluminum hybrids like the DuraAce. They're a good value and getting cheaper because of the shift to disc wheels. You can skip the special brake pads and sketchy wet-weather braking -- or in your case, hot weather braking on long descents. For most people, CF rims are a solution in search of a problem.

-- Jay Beattie.


I linked earlier to Campagnolo wheels but Tom seems hellbent
on incrementally financing the People's Navy which is
building supercarriers.

Andrew, as I explained to you before - Mavic, Fulcrum and Campy wheel components are almost entirely made in China or Taiwan. They send the components to Romania or Italy or France for assembly which allows these companies to claim place of origin.

Most carbon rims are made in China from prepreg from Japan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XqJ9eZUG58

Zipp wheels are made in China by SRAM.

Probikekit which usually has the cheapest wheel prices around are quoting almost $2,000 for a 50 mm deep Shimano wheelset and they ONLY have Shimano freehubs. Do you have some other source?

It appears that all of these companies have been having trouble with delamination and that is why they are changing over to aluminum hubs with carbon fiber fairings on them. Most of these are between 200 and 400 grams heavier per set.

So as I said, it this is a warning that these tubeless rims do not work and they in all likelihood do not work for any manufacturer.

Or we can pretend like Jay that if they are "made in America" they would work fine.

Gee Tom, yet another example of your fantasies.

ENVE, located in Ogden, Utah, makes carbon fiber wheels and guarantees
them for 5 years:

"We warrant all products to be free from defects in materials or
workmanship for five years from the original purchase date (valid
proof of purchase required)."

And, have 50 dealers in and around San Francisco (50 mile radius).


cheers,

John B.


John, ask Jay what a warranty is worth. The wheels I bought have a two year warranty on them.


Yes, of course. Just carry them back to China and they will likely
replace them. What is a round trip to, oh say, Shanghai, cost these
days. In contract there are, as I told you, some 50 dealers in driving
distance to San Francisco.

As for Jay, he has mentioned a number of times breaking a bike and
having it replaced under warranty.

cheers,

John B.


Apparently you are unfamiliar with this foreign concept - United States Postal Service. Exactly what you would have a dealer using after charging you as much as 10 times more than I paid. But I'm sure you're rolling in cash and that means nothing to you.
  #24  
Old December 2nd 18, 06:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 493
Default Danger from CF rims

On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 4:11:30 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 3:24:08 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 15:05:53 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 3:23:36 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 30 Nov 2018 07:22:40 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 5:41:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/29/2018 7:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 3:05:02 PM UTC-8, wrote:
I previously bought a set of 50 mm deep Carbon Fiber rims. These were clinchers and were 23 mm wide on the brake surfaces. These have performed faultlessly.

But I didn't want to have to carry around all of the 2 lbs of flat repair stuff - the Topeak bag, multitool, two spare tubes, two CO2 cartridges and the tool to use them and a patch kit ifneeded.

So I decided to go to tubeless as I have successfully used on Campy and Fulcrum aluminum wheelsets. They were selling the 25 mm wide tubeless wheelsets nearly as cheaply as the clincher rims.

I bought a set and they arrived. I also wanted to try 28 mm tires on my Colnago so I was mounting a set of Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires like I had used on my Pinarello Stelvio. The front appeared to mount and hold air as normal for a new mount. Usually it takes a couple of days for all of the small leaks around the sidewalls to seal. You just pump it up until it hold air pretty well and then go for a ride and that jiggles everything into place and you don't have to worry about flats again.

When I was inflating the rear tire and inflating it, there was a loud POP! and I put the wheel into the wheelstand and it was an inch out of true. I assumed this was from delamination but as the wheel was spinning in the stand the air was draining out of it and it came back into true. I pulled the tire off and looked carefully at the entire rim but couldn't see anything. I contacted the seller on Ebay and they sent me a rim which I've covered elsewhere.

In any case I ordered a second wheelset from another manufacturer. They came in pretty fast so they must have gotten to the boat just as it was leaving.

I discovered with the apparently good front wheel that there's insufficient room on the CLX 3.0 to use 28 mm tires. Conveniently Vittoria just released the Corsa Speed tubeless tires so I ordered a set from ProBikeKit. It took a month to get here so it was just a couple of days ago I tried putting them on. I had a lot of problems getting them to push up onto the step that all tubeless rims have. In fact I used up 5 CO2 cartridges without getting one properly mounted. So I had to order another lifetime supply. I expected them to arrive in another week but they were here this morning!

I mounted the new tires and inflated them and they didn't fill properly still. They were spraying the sealant all over the place. Finally they seemed to mount properly. The air pressure was low from all of the leakage getting them on properly. so I stuck a pump on and started pumping them up at around 65 psi they started TICing and when I got to 80 PSI they exploded loudly and the way the tire felt I thought that it had broken the bead. I tried the other wheel and it did the same thing. When the pressure got to 70 psi or so it began making funny noises and at 80 psi BANG!

I called Vittoria America up and gave them a piece of my mind and they were the nicest people in the world and just gave me a return ID and said that they would replace them.

So I went through the process of taking them off with all of that sealant inside. I got them off and there didn't seem to be anything wrong with the tires. So I rubbed by fingers along the top of the rims and one was delaminated for about 10 inches while the other was delaminated a third of the way around the one side of the rim. I kept the wheel box but I cannot return them through Ebay until I communicate with the seller.

Now the tube bed on the clincher wheels is completely different than that of the tubeless so I don't expect any trouble with them. But what is important to note is that probably all 50 mm deep carbon rims are made by the same manufacturer. This makes them all suspect no matter whose decal is on the rims.

If you want the advantages of a good aero section that you can get from carbon 50 mm wheels you should think more about a clincher set. These have more re-enforcement around the brake area.

WTF? You and cheap carbon wheels should not be on the same planet together. Go get some decent aluminum rims and call it good -- or some CF/aluminum hybrids like the DuraAce. They're a good value and getting cheaper because of the shift to disc wheels. You can skip the special brake pads and sketchy wet-weather braking -- or in your case, hot weather braking on long descents. For most people, CF rims are a solution in search of a problem.

-- Jay Beattie.


I linked earlier to Campagnolo wheels but Tom seems hellbent
on incrementally financing the People's Navy which is
building supercarriers.

Andrew, as I explained to you before - Mavic, Fulcrum and Campy wheel components are almost entirely made in China or Taiwan. They send the components to Romania or Italy or France for assembly which allows these companies to claim place of origin.

Most carbon rims are made in China from prepreg from Japan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XqJ9eZUG58

Zipp wheels are made in China by SRAM.

Probikekit which usually has the cheapest wheel prices around are quoting almost $2,000 for a 50 mm deep Shimano wheelset and they ONLY have Shimano freehubs. Do you have some other source?

It appears that all of these companies have been having trouble with delamination and that is why they are changing over to aluminum hubs with carbon fiber fairings on them. Most of these are between 200 and 400 grams heavier per set.

So as I said, it this is a warning that these tubeless rims do not work and they in all likelihood do not work for any manufacturer.

Or we can pretend like Jay that if they are "made in America" they would work fine.

Gee Tom, yet another example of your fantasies.

ENVE, located in Ogden, Utah, makes carbon fiber wheels and guarantees
them for 5 years:

"We warrant all products to be free from defects in materials or
workmanship for five years from the original purchase date (valid
proof of purchase required)."

And, have 50 dealers in and around San Francisco (50 mile radius).


cheers,

John B.

John, ask Jay what a warranty is worth. The wheels I bought have a two year warranty on them.


Yes, of course. Just carry them back to China and they will likely
replace them. What is a round trip to, oh say, Shanghai, cost these
days. In contract there are, as I told you, some 50 dealers in driving
distance to San Francisco.

As for Jay, he has mentioned a number of times breaking a bike and
having it replaced under warranty.


A warranty is only as good as the seller. Cannondale has been great. Even when my SuperSix got destroyed in the roof rack incident, Cannondale gave me a discount on a new bike. It's like maintaining addicts -- give them drugs at a discount! The local seller, Western Bikeworks, is also a great shop. Sorry about the shameless plugs, but good sellers should be rewarded -- as I did today by spending a bunch of money at Western for wear parts.

This is not to say that a Chinese internet seller of CF wheels with questionable pedigree is not going to honor its warranty. It may want to protect its already shaky reputation -- at least until it can rebrand and get a new name and URL. TK may get a prompt replacement wheel. We'll see.


-- Jay Beattie.


Well, the problem isn't replacement is it? The problem is the failure in the first place. As I pointed out, all of the manufacturers now seem to be going from carbon fiber to aluminum rims with carbon fiber fairings on them. This pretty plainly shows that they have all been getting failures of the sort I encountered. Racers use tubulars and there wouldn't be this problem with them.
  #25  
Old December 2nd 18, 06:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 493
Default Danger from CF rims

On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 6:39:27 PM UTC-8, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 7:11:30 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 3:24:08 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 15:05:53 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 3:23:36 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 30 Nov 2018 07:22:40 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 5:41:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/29/2018 7:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 3:05:02 PM UTC-8, wrote:
I previously bought a set of 50 mm deep Carbon Fiber rims. These were clinchers and were 23 mm wide on the brake surfaces. These have performed faultlessly.

But I didn't want to have to carry around all of the 2 lbs of flat repair stuff - the Topeak bag, multitool, two spare tubes, two CO2 cartridges and the tool to use them and a patch kit ifneeded.

So I decided to go to tubeless as I have successfully used on Campy and Fulcrum aluminum wheelsets. They were selling the 25 mm wide tubeless wheelsets nearly as cheaply as the clincher rims.

I bought a set and they arrived. I also wanted to try 28 mm tires on my Colnago so I was mounting a set of Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires like I had used on my Pinarello Stelvio. The front appeared to mount and hold air as normal for a new mount. Usually it takes a couple of days for all of the small leaks around the sidewalls to seal. You just pump it up until it hold air pretty well and then go for a ride and that jiggles everything into place and you don't have to worry about flats again.

When I was inflating the rear tire and inflating it, there was a loud POP! and I put the wheel into the wheelstand and it was an inch out of true. I assumed this was from delamination but as the wheel was spinning in the stand the air was draining out of it and it came back into true. I pulled the tire off and looked carefully at the entire rim but couldn't see anything. I contacted the seller on Ebay and they sent me a rim which I've covered elsewhere.

In any case I ordered a second wheelset from another manufacturer. They came in pretty fast so they must have gotten to the boat just as it was leaving.

I discovered with the apparently good front wheel that there's insufficient room on the CLX 3.0 to use 28 mm tires. Conveniently Vittoria just released the Corsa Speed tubeless tires so I ordered a set from ProBikeKit. It took a month to get here so it was just a couple of days ago I tried putting them on. I had a lot of problems getting them to push up onto the step that all tubeless rims have. In fact I used up 5 CO2 cartridges without getting one properly mounted. So I had to order another lifetime supply. I expected them to arrive in another week but they were here this morning!

I mounted the new tires and inflated them and they didn't fill properly still. They were spraying the sealant all over the place. Finally they seemed to mount properly. The air pressure was low from all of the leakage getting them on properly. so I stuck a pump on and started pumping them up at around 65 psi they started TICing and when I got to 80 PSI they exploded loudly and the way the tire felt I thought that it had broken the bead. I tried the other wheel and it did the same thing. When the pressure got to 70 psi or so it began making funny noises and at 80 psi BANG!

I called Vittoria America up and gave them a piece of my mind and they were the nicest people in the world and just gave me a return ID and said that they would replace them.

So I went through the process of taking them off with all of that sealant inside. I got them off and there didn't seem to be anything wrong with the tires. So I rubbed by fingers along the top of the rims and one was delaminated for about 10 inches while the other was delaminated a third of the way around the one side of the rim. I kept the wheel box but I cannot return them through Ebay until I communicate with the seller.

Now the tube bed on the clincher wheels is completely different than that of the tubeless so I don't expect any trouble with them. But what is important to note is that probably all 50 mm deep carbon rims are made by the same manufacturer. This makes them all suspect no matter whose decal is on the rims.

If you want the advantages of a good aero section that you can get from carbon 50 mm wheels you should think more about a clincher set. These have more re-enforcement around the brake area.

WTF? You and cheap carbon wheels should not be on the same planet together. Go get some decent aluminum rims and call it good -- or some CF/aluminum hybrids like the DuraAce. They're a good value and getting cheaper because of the shift to disc wheels. You can skip the special brake pads and sketchy wet-weather braking -- or in your case, hot weather braking on long descents. For most people, CF rims are a solution in search of a problem.

-- Jay Beattie.


I linked earlier to Campagnolo wheels but Tom seems hellbent
on incrementally financing the People's Navy which is
building supercarriers.

Andrew, as I explained to you before - Mavic, Fulcrum and Campy wheel components are almost entirely made in China or Taiwan. They send the components to Romania or Italy or France for assembly which allows these companies to claim place of origin.

Most carbon rims are made in China from prepreg from Japan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XqJ9eZUG58

Zipp wheels are made in China by SRAM.

Probikekit which usually has the cheapest wheel prices around are quoting almost $2,000 for a 50 mm deep Shimano wheelset and they ONLY have Shimano freehubs. Do you have some other source?

It appears that all of these companies have been having trouble with delamination and that is why they are changing over to aluminum hubs with carbon fiber fairings on them. Most of these are between 200 and 400 grams heavier per set.

So as I said, it this is a warning that these tubeless rims do not work and they in all likelihood do not work for any manufacturer.

Or we can pretend like Jay that if they are "made in America" they would work fine.

Gee Tom, yet another example of your fantasies.

ENVE, located in Ogden, Utah, makes carbon fiber wheels and guarantees
them for 5 years:

"We warrant all products to be free from defects in materials or
workmanship for five years from the original purchase date (valid
proof of purchase required)."

And, have 50 dealers in and around San Francisco (50 mile radius).


cheers,

John B.

John, ask Jay what a warranty is worth. The wheels I bought have a two year warranty on them.

Yes, of course. Just carry them back to China and they will likely
replace them. What is a round trip to, oh say, Shanghai, cost these
days. In contract there are, as I told you, some 50 dealers in driving
distance to San Francisco.

As for Jay, he has mentioned a number of times breaking a bike and
having it replaced under warranty.


A warranty is only as good as the seller. Cannondale has been great. Even when my SuperSix got destroyed in the roof rack incident, Cannondale gave me a discount on a new bike. It's like maintaining addicts -- give them drugs at a discount! The local seller, Western Bikeworks, is also a great shop. Sorry about the shameless plugs, but good sellers should be rewarded -- as I did today by spending a bunch of money at Western for wear parts.

This is not to say that a Chinese internet seller of CF wheels with questionable pedigree is not going to honor its warranty. It may want to protect its already shaky reputation -- at least until it can rebrand and get a new name and URL. TK may get a prompt replacement wheel. We'll see.


-- Jay Beattie.


Not to mention the cost of having to ship those wheels back to China.

Cheers


Wait a minute - instead of $2,000 for a set of wheels I pay $350, they fail and you think that paying $12 for shipping is significant?

Maybe you ought to think about that a little.
  #26  
Old December 2nd 18, 06:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 493
Default Danger from CF rims

On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 8:22:12 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/1/2018 4:58 PM, wrote:
On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 12:17:49 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 10:07:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 9:33:15 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 7:28:14 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 5:24:01 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 3:05:02 PM UTC-8, wrote:
I previously bought a set of 50 mm deep Carbon Fiber rims. These were clinchers and were 23 mm wide on the brake surfaces. These have performed faultlessly.

But I didn't want to have to carry around all of the 2 lbs of flat repair stuff - the Topeak bag, multitool, two spare tubes, two CO2 cartridges and the tool to use them and a patch kit ifneeded.

So I decided to go to tubeless as I have successfully used on Campy and Fulcrum aluminum wheelsets. They were selling the 25 mm wide tubeless wheelsets nearly as cheaply as the clincher rims.

I bought a set and they arrived. I also wanted to try 28 mm tires on my Colnago so I was mounting a set of Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires like I had used on my Pinarello Stelvio. The front appeared to mount and hold air as normal for a new mount. Usually it takes a couple of days for all of the small leaks around the sidewalls to seal. You just pump it up until it hold air pretty well and then go for a ride and that jiggles everything into place and you don't have to worry about flats again.

When I was inflating the rear tire and inflating it, there was a loud POP! and I put the wheel into the wheelstand and it was an inch out of true. I assumed this was from delamination but as the wheel was spinning in the stand the air was draining out of it and it came back into true. I pulled the tire off and looked carefully at the entire rim but couldn't see anything. I contacted the seller on Ebay and they sent me a rim which I've covered elsewhere.

In any case I ordered a second wheelset from another manufacturer.. They came in pretty fast so they must have gotten to the boat just as it was leaving.

I discovered with the apparently good front wheel that there's insufficient room on the CLX 3.0 to use 28 mm tires. Conveniently Vittoria just released the Corsa Speed tubeless tires so I ordered a set from ProBikeKit. It took a month to get here so it was just a couple of days ago I tried putting them on. I had a lot of problems getting them to push up onto the step that all tubeless rims have. In fact I used up 5 CO2 cartridges without getting one properly mounted. So I had to order another lifetime supply. I expected them to arrive in another week but they were here this morning!

I mounted the new tires and inflated them and they didn't fill properly still. They were spraying the sealant all over the place. Finally they seemed to mount properly. The air pressure was low from all of the leakage getting them on properly. so I stuck a pump on and started pumping them up at around 65 psi they started TICing and when I got to 80 PSI they exploded loudly and the way the tire felt I thought that it had broken the bead. I tried the other wheel and it did the same thing. When the pressure got to 70 psi or so it began making funny noises and at 80 psi BANG!

I called Vittoria America up and gave them a piece of my mind and they were the nicest people in the world and just gave me a return ID and said that they would replace them.

So I went through the process of taking them off with all of that sealant inside. I got them off and there didn't seem to be anything wrong with the tires. So I rubbed by fingers along the top of the rims and one was delaminated for about 10 inches while the other was delaminated a third of the way around the one side of the rim. I kept the wheel box but I cannot return them through Ebay until I communicate with the seller.

Now the tube bed on the clincher wheels is completely different than that of the tubeless so I don't expect any trouble with them. But what is important to note is that probably all 50 mm deep carbon rims are made by the same manufacturer. This makes them all suspect no matter whose decal is on the rims.

If you want the advantages of a good aero section that you can get from carbon 50 mm wheels you should think more about a clincher set. These have more re-enforcement around the brake area.

WTF? You and cheap carbon wheels should not be on the same planet together. Go get some decent aluminum rims and call it good -- or some CF/aluminum hybrids like the DuraAce. They're a good value and getting cheaper because of the shift to disc wheels. You can skip the special brake pads and sketchy wet-weather braking -- or in your case, hot weather braking on long descents. For most people, CF rims are a solution in search of a problem.

-- Jay Beattie.

Just out of curiosity - how many miles do you put in a year? How much climbing? What sort of bikes do you ride? Since you don't seem to be aware that DuraAce doesn't offer Campy freehubs I have to question what sort of riding you do.

I don't keep track of your equipment choices. Sorry.

To answer your question, I ride 5-10,000 miles a year, depending on the year -- probably 7,000-ish average. Maybe 5-10K climbing a week, which will ratchet back during ski season. Purely commute climbing is about 2K a week because I have to climb a minimum of 400 feet to get home every night, and I can go home directly over the West Hills for 1,100 feet of climbing in a short distance. Doing 5K of climbing on a single ride is not a big deal during the summer. We have a lot of hills -- but alas, no major climbs like Mt. Hamilton until you get well out of town. The Santa Clara Valley was better for long climbs close in. You have to string short 2-4 mile climbs together around town. For longer climbs, you have to head to the Mt. Hood territory. Great gravel riding.
https://ridewithgps.com/photos/961734/large.jpg

Bikes are Emonda SLR9 (pro deal from client Trek -- thank you Trek, awesome bike), Cannondale Synapse (fast rain bike -- insurance replacement for stolen Roubaix), Norco Search 105 CF gravel bike ($1,500! -- incredible deal at Western Bikeworks) and a Cannondale CAADX commuter (warranty replacement frame), with a leaking BR-RS785 front disc caliper, which is a whole other story. I also have a 1970 Raleigh Pro track bike from my track racing era -- now for riding rollers in the basement. This collection does not include my son's bikes. The garage looks like a bike shop.

My only expensive wheels are some Dura Ace C35s and the HED Ardennes discs on the Synapse. I also have some OE wheels and wheels I built on a variety of aluminum rims. I have no pure CF wheels and don't anticipate getting any. I would never buy a FleaBay Chinese CF wheel.

There is a reason that most of the Pro teams use Campy. Though often I wonder why since my one Ultegra bike seems to work very well except the shifters are extremely sensitive to getting dust in the mechanism after which they are throw-away.

There is a reason that most pro teams use Shimano. https://bikerumor..com/2017/07/25/sh...our-de-france/

I rode the same 9sp 105 levers on my commuter for 15 years -- in rain, snow, mud, etc., etc. My son had an Ultegra left/rear shifter seize up.. That's the only STI fatality since 1992, IIRC.

-- Jay Beattie.

OK, you ride a good deal. You have good equipment. Then why aren't you aware that most of the wheels built today are in China? Hell, Except for 105, Ultegra and DuraAce groups everything Shimano makes is made in mainland China.

From what I can tell, you bought knock-off Chinese wheels of unknown pedigree on eBay. It's like buying a Chinarello or some open-mold grab bag bike frame made after-hours from floor scraps. Maybe you luck out and maybe you don't.

If you buy Shimano, Trek, Specialized, etc., you are also getting their QC and oversight. Shimano over-lords are watching every move of those inscrutable Chinese factory workers! Welcome to Nanjing 2.0! Actually, though, they ensure that the factories are ISO certified and are producing quality products. And, BTW:

"Approximately 90% of Mavic aluminum rims are produced [in France], with the other 10% being made in Asia,’ said Mavic’s Michel Lethenet. ‘And this 10% is made up mostly of Mavic’s more entry-level wheels not suited for high-performance road cycling and mountain biking; those are made here in St. Trevier.’ Mavic’s carbon rims are designed and prototyped at the company’s headquarters in Annecy, France, while mass-production of the carbon rims is carried out in a factory in Romania."

https://roadbikeaction.com/being-the...s-rim-factory/

Also, way more pro teams use Shimano.

"Of the 18 WorldTour teams, 14 use Shimano drivetrain components either fully or partly and a 15th team in Katusha-Alpecin use Shimano direct mount brakes along with their SRAM drivetrain."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...-bike-guide-1/


Campagnolo is used by three of 18 WorldTour teams. With teams going to discs, the number will drop further.

Dump Campy and get some nice Shimano wheels and Di2. It's totally unnecessary, but great for shifting under load -- and you get that little squeak when you shift gears. It's the sound of technology!


-- Jay Beattie.


I'm pretty sure that these wheels as clinchers were sold by many big name companies with $1,5000 price tags on them. The problem is that the forces on a tubeless rim are different and you can see by looking at all of the new wheels that they are changing over to aluminum rims with molded on carbon aero fairings.

I don't think that this was done so that you could use rubber brake pads but because tubeless tires are becoming real popular and their testing showed exactly what mine has.


I don't understand.
Would you explain which forces are different and why and to
what significant extent?


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


A tubular rims has no forces on it from the inflation of a tire. A clincher rim has a semicircular well so the sides of the rim are braced all the way to the locking bead. The tubeless has a deep bead wall in order to give enough area to seal against so that inflation forces have quite a lot of area to push outward on.

Looking at them, I can see why it took so long to produce the tubeless. And seeing the failures I think that they couldn't have tested them much before putting them on the market.

The major manufacturers made the clinchers and I'll bet that in testing they discovered the weakness of the tubeless rim and never sold them.

The only carbon wheelsets that I can find that are tubeless is Venn and 3T and suddenly they are selling cheap.
  #27  
Old December 2nd 18, 09:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,855
Default Danger from CF rims

On 12/2/2018 11:56 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 8:22:12 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 12/1/2018 4:58 PM,
wrote:
On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 12:17:49 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 10:07:27 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 9:33:15 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 7:28:14 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 5:24:01 PM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 3:05:02 PM UTC-8, wrote:
I previously bought a set of 50 mm deep Carbon Fiber rims. These were clinchers and were 23 mm wide on the brake surfaces. These have performed faultlessly.

But I didn't want to have to carry around all of the 2 lbs of flat repair stuff - the Topeak bag, multitool, two spare tubes, two CO2 cartridges and the tool to use them and a patch kit ifneeded.

So I decided to go to tubeless as I have successfully used on Campy and Fulcrum aluminum wheelsets. They were selling the 25 mm wide tubeless wheelsets nearly as cheaply as the clincher rims.

I bought a set and they arrived. I also wanted to try 28 mm tires on my Colnago so I was mounting a set of Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires like I had used on my Pinarello Stelvio. The front appeared to mount and hold air as normal for a new mount. Usually it takes a couple of days for all of the small leaks around the sidewalls to seal. You just pump it up until it hold air pretty well and then go for a ride and that jiggles everything into place and you don't have to worry about flats again.

When I was inflating the rear tire and inflating it, there was a loud POP! and I put the wheel into the wheelstand and it was an inch out of true. I assumed this was from delamination but as the wheel was spinning in the stand the air was draining out of it and it came back into true. I pulled the tire off and looked carefully at the entire rim but couldn't see anything. I contacted the seller on Ebay and they sent me a rim which I've covered elsewhere.

In any case I ordered a second wheelset from another manufacturer. They came in pretty fast so they must have gotten to the boat just as it was leaving.

I discovered with the apparently good front wheel that there's insufficient room on the CLX 3.0 to use 28 mm tires. Conveniently Vittoria just released the Corsa Speed tubeless tires so I ordered a set from ProBikeKit. It took a month to get here so it was just a couple of days ago I tried putting them on. I had a lot of problems getting them to push up onto the step that all tubeless rims have. In fact I used up 5 CO2 cartridges without getting one properly mounted. So I had to order another lifetime supply. I expected them to arrive in another week but they were here this morning!

I mounted the new tires and inflated them and they didn't fill properly still. They were spraying the sealant all over the place. Finally they seemed to mount properly. The air pressure was low from all of the leakage getting them on properly. so I stuck a pump on and started pumping them up at around 65 psi they started TICing and when I got to 80 PSI they exploded loudly and the way the tire felt I thought that it had broken the bead. I tried the other wheel and it did the same thing. When the pressure got to 70 psi or so it began making funny noises and at 80 psi BANG!

I called Vittoria America up and gave them a piece of my mind and they were the nicest people in the world and just gave me a return ID and said that they would replace them.

So I went through the process of taking them off with all of that sealant inside. I got them off and there didn't seem to be anything wrong with the tires. So I rubbed by fingers along the top of the rims and one was delaminated for about 10 inches while the other was delaminated a third of the way around the one side of the rim. I kept the wheel box but I cannot return them through Ebay until I communicate with the seller.

Now the tube bed on the clincher wheels is completely different than that of the tubeless so I don't expect any trouble with them. But what is important to note is that probably all 50 mm deep carbon rims are made by the same manufacturer. This makes them all suspect no matter whose decal is on the rims.

If you want the advantages of a good aero section that you can get from carbon 50 mm wheels you should think more about a clincher set. These have more re-enforcement around the brake area.

WTF? You and cheap carbon wheels should not be on the same planet together. Go get some decent aluminum rims and call it good -- or some CF/aluminum hybrids like the DuraAce. They're a good value and getting cheaper because of the shift to disc wheels. You can skip the special brake pads and sketchy wet-weather braking -- or in your case, hot weather braking on long descents. For most people, CF rims are a solution in search of a problem.

-- Jay Beattie.

Just out of curiosity - how many miles do you put in a year? How much climbing? What sort of bikes do you ride? Since you don't seem to be aware that DuraAce doesn't offer Campy freehubs I have to question what sort of riding you do.

I don't keep track of your equipment choices. Sorry.

To answer your question, I ride 5-10,000 miles a year, depending on the year -- probably 7,000-ish average. Maybe 5-10K climbing a week, which will ratchet back during ski season. Purely commute climbing is about 2K a week because I have to climb a minimum of 400 feet to get home every night, and I can go home directly over the West Hills for 1,100 feet of climbing in a short distance. Doing 5K of climbing on a single ride is not a big deal during the summer. We have a lot of hills -- but alas, no major climbs like Mt. Hamilton until you get well out of town. The Santa Clara Valley was better for long climbs close in. You have to string short 2-4 mile climbs together around town. For longer climbs, you have to head to the Mt. Hood territory. Great gravel riding.
https://ridewithgps.com/photos/961734/large.jpg

Bikes are Emonda SLR9 (pro deal from client Trek -- thank you Trek, awesome bike), Cannondale Synapse (fast rain bike -- insurance replacement for stolen Roubaix), Norco Search 105 CF gravel bike ($1,500! -- incredible deal at Western Bikeworks) and a Cannondale CAADX commuter (warranty replacement frame), with a leaking BR-RS785 front disc caliper, which is a whole other story. I also have a 1970 Raleigh Pro track bike from my track racing era -- now for riding rollers in the basement. This collection does not include my son's bikes. The garage looks like a bike shop.

My only expensive wheels are some Dura Ace C35s and the HED Ardennes discs on the Synapse. I also have some OE wheels and wheels I built on a variety of aluminum rims. I have no pure CF wheels and don't anticipate getting any. I would never buy a FleaBay Chinese CF wheel.

There is a reason that most of the Pro teams use Campy. Though often I wonder why since my one Ultegra bike seems to work very well except the shifters are extremely sensitive to getting dust in the mechanism after which they are throw-away.

There is a reason that most pro teams use Shimano. https://bikerumor.com/2017/07/25/shi...our-de-france/

I rode the same 9sp 105 levers on my commuter for 15 years -- in rain, snow, mud, etc., etc. My son had an Ultegra left/rear shifter seize up. That's the only STI fatality since 1992, IIRC.

-- Jay Beattie.

OK, you ride a good deal. You have good equipment. Then why aren't you aware that most of the wheels built today are in China? Hell, Except for 105, Ultegra and DuraAce groups everything Shimano makes is made in mainland China.

From what I can tell, you bought knock-off Chinese wheels of unknown pedigree on eBay. It's like buying a Chinarello or some open-mold grab bag bike frame made after-hours from floor scraps. Maybe you luck out and maybe you don't.

If you buy Shimano, Trek, Specialized, etc., you are also getting their QC and oversight. Shimano over-lords are watching every move of those inscrutable Chinese factory workers! Welcome to Nanjing 2.0! Actually, though, they ensure that the factories are ISO certified and are producing quality products. And, BTW:

"Approximately 90% of Mavic aluminum rims are produced [in France], with the other 10% being made in Asia,’ said Mavic’s Michel Lethenet. ‘And this 10% is made up mostly of Mavic’s more entry-level wheels not suited for high-performance road cycling and mountain biking; those are made here in St. Trevier.’ Mavic’s carbon rims are designed and prototyped at the company’s headquarters in Annecy, France, while mass-production of the carbon rims is carried out in a factory in Romania."

https://roadbikeaction.com/being-the...s-rim-factory/

Also, way more pro teams use Shimano.

"Of the 18 WorldTour teams, 14 use Shimano drivetrain components either fully or partly and a 15th team in Katusha-Alpecin use Shimano direct mount brakes along with their SRAM drivetrain."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...-bike-guide-1/


Campagnolo is used by three of 18 WorldTour teams. With teams going to discs, the number will drop further.

Dump Campy and get some nice Shimano wheels and Di2. It's totally unnecessary, but great for shifting under load -- and you get that little squeak when you shift gears. It's the sound of technology!


-- Jay Beattie.

I'm pretty sure that these wheels as clinchers were sold by many big name companies with $1,5000 price tags on them. The problem is that the forces on a tubeless rim are different and you can see by looking at all of the new wheels that they are changing over to aluminum rims with molded on carbon aero fairings.

I don't think that this was done so that you could use rubber brake pads but because tubeless tires are becoming real popular and their testing showed exactly what mine has.


I don't understand.
Would you explain which forces are different and why and to
what significant extent?



A tubular rims has no forces on it from the inflation of a tire. A clincher rim has a semicircular well so the sides of the rim are braced all the way to the locking bead. The tubeless has a deep bead wall in order to give enough area to seal against so that inflation forces have quite a lot of area to push outward on.

Looking at them, I can see why it took so long to produce the tubeless. And seeing the failures I think that they couldn't have tested them much before putting them on the market.

The major manufacturers made the clinchers and I'll bet that in testing they discovered the weakness of the tubeless rim and never sold them.

The only carbon wheelsets that I can find that are tubeless is Venn and 3T and suddenly they are selling cheap.


Yes, tubular rims are different. That was not my question.

How does a rim experience different forces with the same
tire at the same pressure either with latex slop inside or a
butyl tube?

Or, again same tire, how does one rim with an airtight rim
liner experience different forces from a rim with a
permeable rim liner?

Which forces? How different?

Inquiring minds want to know.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #28  
Old December 3rd 18, 12:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 365
Default Danger from CF rims

On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 09:28:53 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 3:24:08 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 15:05:53 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 3:23:36 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 30 Nov 2018 07:22:40 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 5:41:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/29/2018 7:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 3:05:02 PM UTC-8, wrote:
I previously bought a set of 50 mm deep Carbon Fiber rims. These were clinchers and were 23 mm wide on the brake surfaces. These have performed faultlessly.

But I didn't want to have to carry around all of the 2 lbs of flat repair stuff - the Topeak bag, multitool, two spare tubes, two CO2 cartridges and the tool to use them and a patch kit ifneeded.

So I decided to go to tubeless as I have successfully used on Campy and Fulcrum aluminum wheelsets. They were selling the 25 mm wide tubeless wheelsets nearly as cheaply as the clincher rims.

I bought a set and they arrived. I also wanted to try 28 mm tires on my Colnago so I was mounting a set of Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires like I had used on my Pinarello Stelvio. The front appeared to mount and hold air as normal for a new mount. Usually it takes a couple of days for all of the small leaks around the sidewalls to seal. You just pump it up until it hold air pretty well and then go for a ride and that jiggles everything into place and you don't have to worry about flats again.

When I was inflating the rear tire and inflating it, there was a loud POP! and I put the wheel into the wheelstand and it was an inch out of true. I assumed this was from delamination but as the wheel was spinning in the stand the air was draining out of it and it came back into true. I pulled the tire off and looked carefully at the entire rim but couldn't see anything. I contacted the seller on Ebay and they sent me a rim which I've covered elsewhere.

In any case I ordered a second wheelset from another manufacturer. They came in pretty fast so they must have gotten to the boat just as it was leaving.

I discovered with the apparently good front wheel that there's insufficient room on the CLX 3.0 to use 28 mm tires. Conveniently Vittoria just released the Corsa Speed tubeless tires so I ordered a set from ProBikeKit. It took a month to get here so it was just a couple of days ago I tried putting them on. I had a lot of problems getting them to push up onto the step that all tubeless rims have. In fact I used up 5 CO2 cartridges without getting one properly mounted. So I had to order another lifetime supply. I expected them to arrive in another week but they were here this morning!

I mounted the new tires and inflated them and they didn't fill properly still. They were spraying the sealant all over the place. Finally they seemed to mount properly. The air pressure was low from all of the leakage getting them on properly. so I stuck a pump on and started pumping them up at around 65 psi they started TICing and when I got to 80 PSI they exploded loudly and the way the tire felt I thought that it had broken the bead. I tried the other wheel and it did the same thing. When the pressure got to 70 psi or so it began making funny noises and at 80 psi BANG!

I called Vittoria America up and gave them a piece of my mind and they were the nicest people in the world and just gave me a return ID and said that they would replace them.

So I went through the process of taking them off with all of that sealant inside. I got them off and there didn't seem to be anything wrong with the tires. So I rubbed by fingers along the top of the rims and one was delaminated for about 10 inches while the other was delaminated a third of the way around the one side of the rim. I kept the wheel box but I cannot return them through Ebay until I communicate with the seller.

Now the tube bed on the clincher wheels is completely different than that of the tubeless so I don't expect any trouble with them. But what is important to note is that probably all 50 mm deep carbon rims are made by the same manufacturer. This makes them all suspect no matter whose decal is on the rims.

If you want the advantages of a good aero section that you can get from carbon 50 mm wheels you should think more about a clincher set. These have more re-enforcement around the brake area.

WTF? You and cheap carbon wheels should not be on the same planet together. Go get some decent aluminum rims and call it good -- or some CF/aluminum hybrids like the DuraAce. They're a good value and getting cheaper because of the shift to disc wheels. You can skip the special brake pads and sketchy wet-weather braking -- or in your case, hot weather braking on long descents. For most people, CF rims are a solution in search of a problem.

-- Jay Beattie.


I linked earlier to Campagnolo wheels but Tom seems hellbent
on incrementally financing the People's Navy which is
building supercarriers.

Andrew, as I explained to you before - Mavic, Fulcrum and Campy wheel components are almost entirely made in China or Taiwan. They send the components to Romania or Italy or France for assembly which allows these companies to claim place of origin.

Most carbon rims are made in China from prepreg from Japan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XqJ9eZUG58

Zipp wheels are made in China by SRAM.

Probikekit which usually has the cheapest wheel prices around are quoting almost $2,000 for a 50 mm deep Shimano wheelset and they ONLY have Shimano freehubs. Do you have some other source?

It appears that all of these companies have been having trouble with delamination and that is why they are changing over to aluminum hubs with carbon fiber fairings on them. Most of these are between 200 and 400 grams heavier per set.

So as I said, it this is a warning that these tubeless rims do not work and they in all likelihood do not work for any manufacturer.

Or we can pretend like Jay that if they are "made in America" they would work fine.

Gee Tom, yet another example of your fantasies.

ENVE, located in Ogden, Utah, makes carbon fiber wheels and guarantees
them for 5 years:

"We warrant all products to be free from defects in materials or
workmanship for five years from the original purchase date (valid
proof of purchase required)."

And, have 50 dealers in and around San Francisco (50 mile radius).


cheers,

John B.

John, ask Jay what a warranty is worth. The wheels I bought have a two year warranty on them.


Yes, of course. Just carry them back to China and they will likely
replace them. What is a round trip to, oh say, Shanghai, cost these
days. In contract there are, as I told you, some 50 dealers in driving
distance to San Francisco.

As for Jay, he has mentioned a number of times breaking a bike and
having it replaced under warranty.

cheers,

John B.


Apparently you are unfamiliar with this foreign concept - United States Postal Service. Exactly what you would have a dealer using after charging you as much as 10 times more than I paid. But I'm sure you're rolling in cash and that means nothing to you.


Goodness! We were talking about the alleged "fact" that you posted
that "Most carbon rims are made in China from prepreg from Japan" and
I pointed out that carbon rims are also made by U.S. companies and
that their warranty is for 5 years.

Now you are off on a on a trip through the intricacies of the USPS and
apparently complaining that U.S. made wheels are more costly then the
cheap Chinese wheels that you bought.

The last time I corrected your fantasies you changed the subject to
India and now it is (apparently) how impoverish you are.

Wake up Tom, buying stuff because it is cheap and having it fail is
not saving money.

cheers,

John B.


  #29  
Old December 3rd 18, 01:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,855
Default Danger from CF rims

On 12/2/2018 5:09 PM, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 09:28:53 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Saturday, December 1, 2018 at 3:24:08 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 15:05:53 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 3:23:36 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Fri, 30 Nov 2018 07:22:40 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

On Friday, November 30, 2018 at 5:41:36 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/29/2018 7:23 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 3:05:02 PM UTC-8, wrote:
I previously bought a set of 50 mm deep Carbon Fiber rims. These were clinchers and were 23 mm wide on the brake surfaces. These have performed faultlessly.

But I didn't want to have to carry around all of the 2 lbs of flat repair stuff - the Topeak bag, multitool, two spare tubes, two CO2 cartridges and the tool to use them and a patch kit ifneeded.

So I decided to go to tubeless as I have successfully used on Campy and Fulcrum aluminum wheelsets. They were selling the 25 mm wide tubeless wheelsets nearly as cheaply as the clincher rims.

I bought a set and they arrived. I also wanted to try 28 mm tires on my Colnago so I was mounting a set of Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires like I had used on my Pinarello Stelvio. The front appeared to mount and hold air as normal for a new mount. Usually it takes a couple of days for all of the small leaks around the sidewalls to seal. You just pump it up until it hold air pretty well and then go for a ride and that jiggles everything into place and you don't have to worry about flats again.

When I was inflating the rear tire and inflating it, there was a loud POP! and I put the wheel into the wheelstand and it was an inch out of true. I assumed this was from delamination but as the wheel was spinning in the stand the air was draining out of it and it came back into true. I pulled the tire off and looked carefully at the entire rim but couldn't see anything. I contacted the seller on Ebay and they sent me a rim which I've covered elsewhere.

In any case I ordered a second wheelset from another manufacturer. They came in pretty fast so they must have gotten to the boat just as it was leaving.

I discovered with the apparently good front wheel that there's insufficient room on the CLX 3.0 to use 28 mm tires. Conveniently Vittoria just released the Corsa Speed tubeless tires so I ordered a set from ProBikeKit. It took a month to get here so it was just a couple of days ago I tried putting them on. I had a lot of problems getting them to push up onto the step that all tubeless rims have. In fact I used up 5 CO2 cartridges without getting one properly mounted. So I had to order another lifetime supply. I expected them to arrive in another week but they were here this morning!

I mounted the new tires and inflated them and they didn't fill properly still. They were spraying the sealant all over the place. Finally they seemed to mount properly. The air pressure was low from all of the leakage getting them on properly. so I stuck a pump on and started pumping them up at around 65 psi they started TICing and when I got to 80 PSI they exploded loudly and the way the tire felt I thought that it had broken the bead. I tried the other wheel and it did the same thing. When the pressure got to 70 psi or so it began making funny noises and at 80 psi BANG!

I called Vittoria America up and gave them a piece of my mind and they were the nicest people in the world and just gave me a return ID and said that they would replace them.

So I went through the process of taking them off with all of that sealant inside. I got them off and there didn't seem to be anything wrong with the tires. So I rubbed by fingers along the top of the rims and one was delaminated for about 10 inches while the other was delaminated a third of the way around the one side of the rim. I kept the wheel box but I cannot return them through Ebay until I communicate with the seller.

Now the tube bed on the clincher wheels is completely different than that of the tubeless so I don't expect any trouble with them. But what is important to note is that probably all 50 mm deep carbon rims are made by the same manufacturer. This makes them all suspect no matter whose decal is on the rims.

If you want the advantages of a good aero section that you can get from carbon 50 mm wheels you should think more about a clincher set. These have more re-enforcement around the brake area.

WTF? You and cheap carbon wheels should not be on the same planet together. Go get some decent aluminum rims and call it good -- or some CF/aluminum hybrids like the DuraAce. They're a good value and getting cheaper because of the shift to disc wheels. You can skip the special brake pads and sketchy wet-weather braking -- or in your case, hot weather braking on long descents. For most people, CF rims are a solution in search of a problem.

-- Jay Beattie.


I linked earlier to Campagnolo wheels but Tom seems hellbent
on incrementally financing the People's Navy which is
building supercarriers.

Andrew, as I explained to you before - Mavic, Fulcrum and Campy wheel components are almost entirely made in China or Taiwan. They send the components to Romania or Italy or France for assembly which allows these companies to claim place of origin.

Most carbon rims are made in China from prepreg from Japan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XqJ9eZUG58

Zipp wheels are made in China by SRAM.

Probikekit which usually has the cheapest wheel prices around are quoting almost $2,000 for a 50 mm deep Shimano wheelset and they ONLY have Shimano freehubs. Do you have some other source?

It appears that all of these companies have been having trouble with delamination and that is why they are changing over to aluminum hubs with carbon fiber fairings on them. Most of these are between 200 and 400 grams heavier per set.

So as I said, it this is a warning that these tubeless rims do not work and they in all likelihood do not work for any manufacturer.

Or we can pretend like Jay that if they are "made in America" they would work fine.

Gee Tom, yet another example of your fantasies.

ENVE, located in Ogden, Utah, makes carbon fiber wheels and guarantees
them for 5 years:

"We warrant all products to be free from defects in materials or
workmanship for five years from the original purchase date (valid
proof of purchase required)."

And, have 50 dealers in and around San Francisco (50 mile radius).


cheers,

John B.

John, ask Jay what a warranty is worth. The wheels I bought have a two year warranty on them.

Yes, of course. Just carry them back to China and they will likely
replace them. What is a round trip to, oh say, Shanghai, cost these
days. In contract there are, as I told you, some 50 dealers in driving
distance to San Francisco.

As for Jay, he has mentioned a number of times breaking a bike and
having it replaced under warranty.


Apparently you are unfamiliar with this foreign concept - United States Postal Service. Exactly what you would have a dealer using after charging you as much as 10 times more than I paid. But I'm sure you're rolling in cash and that means nothing to you.


Goodness! We were talking about the alleged "fact" that you posted
that "Most carbon rims are made in China from prepreg from Japan" and
I pointed out that carbon rims are also made by U.S. companies and
that their warranty is for 5 years.

Now you are off on a on a trip through the intricacies of the USPS and
apparently complaining that U.S. made wheels are more costly then the
cheap Chinese wheels that you bought.

The last time I corrected your fantasies you changed the subject to
India and now it is (apparently) how impoverish you are.

Wake up Tom, buying stuff because it is cheap and having it fail is
not saving money.


Well, there's that.

Regarding your exhortation 'wake up', the People's
Liberation Army Navy* has four keels down for supercarriers,
financed by XMart shoppers.

*I didn't make that up. It's the real name of The Party's
Navy (which is not the nation's navy).


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #30  
Old December 3rd 18, 01:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 493
Default Danger from CF rims

On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 3:09:21 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote:

Goodness! We were talking about the alleged "fact" that you posted
that "Most carbon rims are made in China from prepreg from Japan" and
I pointed out that carbon rims are also made by U.S. companies and
that their warranty is for 5 years.

Now you are off on a on a trip through the intricacies of the USPS and
apparently complaining that U.S. made wheels are more costly then the
cheap Chinese wheels that you bought.

The last time I corrected your fantasies you changed the subject to
India and now it is (apparently) how impoverish you are.

Wake up Tom, buying stuff because it is cheap and having it fail is
not saving money.

cheers,

John B.


John, is there something about "most" you don't understand? I said MOST carbon rims. And where did you get the reliability data on American made tubeless carbon rims?

What you are saying that if I'm willing to spend 5 times as much I will get a reliable rim when the vast majority of manufacturers don't seem to share your opinion and have changed back to aluminum rims with carbon fairings.

I am curious as to why you would make patently false claims for no other reason than to criticize a posting I placed here to warn people off.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Danger! Danger! Get a flag! Frank Krygowski[_4_] Techniques 26 January 23rd 16 09:06 PM
Danger! Danger! That cyclist there! You're in a shipping lane! [email protected] Techniques 1 October 14th 15 10:28 PM
DANGER! DANGER! Beware wandering sheep if MTBing in Greece Sir Ridesalot Techniques 25 September 23rd 15 12:10 PM
Danger! Danger! (Worst liability waiver?) [email protected] General 16 February 12th 08 09:18 AM
DO NOT WEAR YOUR HELMLET!! DANGER, DANGER, danger TJ Mountain Biking 4 December 23rd 06 07:03 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.