Mavic 217 rim failu sidewall blowout

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Mavic 217 rim failure.

My ride is a Cannondale M700, mostly tuned to street/commute riding.

After two pair of bad wheels[1], got a pair built at Bicycle Works, here
in Napa, CA. With ~750 miles on 'em, the build was great (Bob stands
behind his work, and I'd recommend him).

Day after a 36 miler, I'm 2.2 miles from home, on flat surface streets,
just rounded a corner, ~17 MPH, as there's a loud "pop" similar to spoke
breakage and feel the rim rubbing my pads. Rear wheel.

Dismount, check for broken/loose spokes. None.

Hrm. What's this?

The rim itself has blown out, tearing within the sidewall. ASII art
cross-section of damage:



\ /
\ /
| /
| /
\ /
\__________/


Note that the rim sidewall's actually blown out, not deformed at the
top. The damaged region is about 3-4" in length. There's no visible
rim scoring indicating abrasive damage. The bike shop confirms that the
rims don't feel "grooved" or otherwise worn. I'll try getting pics at
some point if possible.

The wheel is a Mavic 217, ~26" diam, 17mm wide, hard-anodized. This was
apparently discontinued around 1997.

I picked up the wheels, new, October, 2003. Didn't ride much for most
of a year, they've got 800mi total, most in the past few weeks.
Tires are slicks, Road Warrior 26x1.25, rated to 85 PSI. Yes, I
overinflate to ~95-100 PSI. My own out-of-fighting-trim weight is 260.
My riding is wholly on-road. Recent rides in the 20-50 mi range,
through Napa valley. No off road. Minimal bad weather. Precautions on
any foreseen impacts (debris, chuckholes, curbs, speed bumps).


So, back to Bicycle Works. They say they'll to work out a deal with
Mavic. In fairness, the wheel is out of warranty (one year, passed Oct.
2004), but has clearly failed at about 10% of anticipated life.

Word back is Mavic asked "did it have slicks" and is rejecting any
replacement on the grounds that the rim is rated to 85 PSI, and my
95-100 is beyond its design strength. Which I feel is pretty damne
bogus (more below). Long discussion with Bob, who respects not wanting
to deal with companies who shaft their customers, but really can't
recommend a comperable quality product in the price range.


So:

- Is anyone else seeing catastrophic rim failure similar to this?
Googling both Web and Usenet shows no clear pattern. Which would
tend to support the idea that this was a chance manufacture defect.

- Any recommendations for dealing with Mavic? I'm itching to get back
in the saddle, and have a new wheel on order, but would appreciate a
break on the ~$70 for a new rim. Particularly as I'm going with
Mavic, despite strong misgivings.

- Any alternate rim recommendations? I'm on a serious budget, so
nothing fancy -- comperable pricing to what I've got. I've had
serial bad luck with wheels. I'm also pretty conservative from a
materials standpoint.

- Any comments on overpressure issues? Experience pro or con?


More on pressu I really can't believe I'm the only guy who'se
running high pressure, particularly on slicks, on a bike. It's a cheap
and effective performance enhancement, and it's something I've done for
years (decades) with no adverse effects in the past. I find the
prospect of a 90% lifetime reduction for a 16% pressure increase rather
frightening -- the dynamic pressure load on wheels has to be
considerably higher under normal riding with various road and debris
impacts, and I'd really hate to think I'm putting my life on the line
for a 20% engineering tolerance.


I'm shooting a copy of this posting to Mavic to see what they have to
say.


Peace.

- ---------------------
Notes:

1. Mike's Bikes, Palo Alto and San Rafael (California) stores. Both
were wibbly within weeks of purchase. The set from San Rafael
required tuning within the first 20 miles, when I realized that the
hub was loose within the rear wheel. Been a long-time (30 years)
Mike's customer, the shop's _definitely gone downhill. Both wheels
ate spokes, typically 1-3 needing replacement after a ride.



- --
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
Jeff Waugh: Can't see the trees for the trees...
- http://zgp.org/pipermail/linux-eliti...ry/008588.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFCS1OtefG8443k044RAu76AJ44TopoKETu/p5KJdOyxukkMRDRjQCdEUeJ
V4QENDedRwR52dmLjp7ie2Y=
=oHPB
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:35:17 GMT, Karsten M. Self wrote:

The rim itself has blown out, tearing within the sidewall. ASII art
cross-section of damage:



\ /
\ /
| /
| /
\ /
\__________/


Note that the rim sidewall's actually blown out, not deformed at the
top. The damaged region is about 3-4" in length. There's no visible
rim scoring indicating abrasive damage. The bike shop confirms that the
rims don't feel "grooved" or otherwise worn. I'll try getting pics at
some point if possible.

The wheel is a Mavic 217, ~26" diam, 17mm wide, hard-anodized. This was
apparently discontinued around 1997.

I'm not a wheel expert (I am an expert at destroying them) but the
only time I've seen this kind of failure is when I've tighten a spoke
(or spokes) too much. I've destroyed 3 rims that way (stupid me).

--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry
http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only)
http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II)
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog

Neil Cherry writes:

The rim itself has blown out, tearing within the sidewall. ASCII
art cross-section of damage:


\ /
\ /
| /
| /
\ /
\__________/


Note that the rim sidewall's actually blown out, not deformed at
the top. The damaged region is about 3-4" in length. There's no
visible rim scoring indicating abrasive damage. The bike shop
confirms that the rims don't feel "grooved" or otherwise worn.
I'll try getting pics at some point if possible.

The wheel is a Mavic 217, ~26" diam, 17mm wide, hard-anodized.
This was apparently discontinued around 1997.

I'm not a wheel expert (I am an expert at destroying them) but the
only time I've seen this kind of failure is when I've tighten a
spoke (or spokes) too much. I've destroyed 3 rims that way (stupid
me).

Don't buy those rims whatever they are. Rims are supposed to carry
any spoke tension that doesn't taco the rim. I am amazed at the user
self critique so common in component failures. These are poorly
designed components. If this rim is so weak that it readily fails in
fatigue while performing otherwise than it is a dog not to be trusted.

It's rims like these and wheel building machines that brought us
spoke-prep, a goop that is to cover for insufficiently tensioned
wheels.

On Thursday 31 March 2005 05:00 am, Neil Cherry wrote:

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:35:17 GMT, Karsten M. Self wrote:

The rim itself has blown out, tearing within the sidewall. ASII art
cross-section of damage:



\ /
\ /
| /
| /
\ /
\__________/


Slightly more realistic view of damage:



+ +
| |
/ |
/ |
\-, ,-|
| |__ ___| |
|/ `-,__,-' \|
\ /
\_____________/


This is based on the external damage visible, and is a recollection.
Makes me think though that the channeling inside the rim may have been
at fault.

Note that the rim sidewall's actually blown out, not deformed at the
top. The damaged region is about 3-4" in length. There's no visible
rim scoring indicating abrasive damage. The bike shop confirms that the
rims don't feel "grooved" or otherwise worn. I'll try getting pics at
some point if possible.

The wheel is a Mavic 217, ~26" diam, 17mm wide, hard-anodized. This was
apparently discontinued around 1997.

I'm not a wheel expert (I am an expert at destroying them) but the
only time I've seen this kind of failure is when I've tighten a spoke
(or spokes) too much. I've destroyed 3 rims that way (stupid me).

The wheel was hand-built by a local professional & shop-owner. Over a
run of wheels I've had, these are the best performing wheels (in terms
of staying in true) I've seen in years.


Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
You couldn't flame your way out of a bag of oxy-acetylene mix.

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:22:04 GMT, wrote:
Neil Cherry writes:

The rim itself has blown out, tearing within the sidewall. ASCII
art cross-section of damage:


\ /
\ /
| /
| /
\ /
\__________/


Note that the rim sidewall's actually blown out, not deformed at
the top. The damaged region is about 3-4" in length. There's no
visible rim scoring indicating abrasive damage. The bike shop
confirms that the rims don't feel "grooved" or otherwise worn.
I'll try getting pics at some point if possible.

The wheel is a Mavic 217, ~26" diam, 17mm wide, hard-anodized.
This was apparently discontinued around 1997.

I'm not a wheel expert (I am an expert at destroying them) but the
only time I've seen this kind of failure is when I've tighten a
spoke (or spokes) too much. I've destroyed 3 rims that way (stupid
me).

Don't buy those rims whatever they are. Rims are supposed to carry
any spoke tension that doesn't taco the rim. I am amazed at the user
self critique so common in component failures. These are poorly
designed components. If this rim is so weak that it readily fails in
fatigue while performing otherwise than it is a dog not to be trusted.

It's rims like these and wheel building machines that brought us
spoke-prep, a goop that is to cover for insufficiently tensioned
wheels.

Well thanks for making me feel better, really! I was so proad of that
wheel it felt solid it was true in all directions and it disintegrated
50 miles into a ride! It was a Mavic Open Pro (silver). I my retry
building that wheel with the Weinmann rim I have. You just restored my
confidence, not as an expert but as not being a total screw-up. Do you
have a favorite rim that could be used for week end club rides and
commutes? The max tire I can fit is a 700x28 and that I have to keep
very true.

--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry
http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only)
http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II)
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 02:25:25 GMT, Karsten M. Self wrote:
On Thursday 31 March 2005 05:00 am, Neil Cherry wrote:

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:35:17 GMT, Karsten M. Self wrote:

Slightly more realistic view of damage:



+ +
| |
/ |
/ |
\-, ,-|
| |__ ___| |
|/ `-,__,-' \|
\ /
\_____________/


This is based on the external damage visible, and is a recollection.
Makes me think though that the channeling inside the rim may have been
at fault.

Note that the rim sidewall's actually blown out, not deformed at the
top. The damaged region is about 3-4" in length. There's no visible
rim scoring indicating abrasive damage. The bike shop confirms that the
rims don't feel "grooved" or otherwise worn. I'll try getting pics at
some point if possible.

The wheel is a Mavic 217, ~26" diam, 17mm wide, hard-anodized. This was
apparently discontinued around 1997.

I'm not a wheel expert (I am an expert at destroying them) but the
only time I've seen this kind of failure is when I've tighten a spoke
(or spokes) too much. I've destroyed 3 rims that way (stupid me).

The wheel was hand-built by a local professional & shop-owner. Over a
run of wheels I've had, these are the best performing wheels (in terms
of staying in true) I've seen in years.

That looks bad, the Open Pro's I've been using failed on the slant (round)
shoulders or spoke pull-out (rim failure not eylet failure).

--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry
http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only)
http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II)
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog

wrote:

Neil Cherry writes:

The rim itself has blown out, tearing within the sidewall. ASCII
art cross-section of damage:


\ /
\ /
| /
| /
\ /
\__________/


Note that the rim sidewall's actually blown out, not deformed at
the top. The damaged region is about 3-4" in length. There's no
visible rim scoring indicating abrasive damage. The bike shop
confirms that the rims don't feel "grooved" or otherwise worn.
I'll try getting pics at some point if possible.

Don't buy those rims whatever they are. Rims are supposed to carry
any spoke tension that doesn't taco the rim. I am amazed at the user
self critique so common in component failures. These are poorly
designed components. If this rim is so weak that it readily fails in
fatigue while performing otherwise than it is a dog not to be trusted.

It's rims like these and wheel building machines that brought us
spoke-prep, a goop that is to cover for insufficiently tensioned
wheels.

I realized (while riding this afternoon) that no one's brought up the
question of how thick the sidewall was. I believe the rim in question
is one of the rims with machined sidewalls. Perhaps we've got an
example of one that had to be machined beyond "normal" standards to
get the sidewalls flat (not that it does any good, but that's another
thread).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Neil Cherry writes:

The rim itself has blown out, tearing within the sidewall. ASCII
art cross-section of damage:


\ /
\ /
| /
| /
\ /
\__________/


Note that the rim's sidewall actually blew out, not deformed at
the top. The damaged region is about 3-4" in length. There's no
visible rim scoring indicating abrasive damage. The bike shop
confirms that the rims don't feel "grooved" or otherwise worn.
I'll try getting pics at some point if possible.

The wheel is a Mavic 217, ~26" diam, 17mm wide, hard-anodized.
This was apparently discontinued around 1997.

I'm not a wheel expert (I am an expert at destroying them) but the
only time I've seen this kind of failure is when I've tighten a
spoke (or spokes) too much. I've destroyed 3 rims that way (stupid
me).

Don't buy those rims whatever they are. Rims are supposed to carry
any spoke tension that doesn't taco the rim. I am amazed at the
user self critique so common in component failures. These are
poorly designed components. If this rim is so weak that it readily
fails in fatigue while performing otherwise than it is a dog not to
be trusted.

It's rims like these and wheel building machines that brought us
spoke-prep, a goop that is to cover for insufficiently tensioned
wheels. A tenison feature that some crack prone rims demand.

Well thanks for making me feel better, really! I was so proud of
that wheel it felt solid it was true in all directions and it
disintegrated 50 miles into a ride! It was a Mavic Open Pro
(silver). I my retry building that wheel with the Weinmann rim I
have. You just restored my confidence, not as an expert but as not
being a total screw-up. Do you have a favorite rim that could be
used for week end club rides and commutes? The max tire I can fit
is a 700x28 and that I have to keep very true.

I have old stock Mavic MA-2 rims and have used them exclusively since
dumping tubulars in the 1970's. I don't know what I'll use when these
are gone. I keep nagging the Mavic man at InterBike trade show and he
doesn't say it is impossible that the MA-2 could come back. I still
have hope. It was the touring and bicycle sport favorite rim of the
world. First it got displaced by the hard anodized MA-40 that brought
us the first rims on which eyelets and sockets pulled through, and
then came a slew of structurally inferior rims with all sorts of
pizzas that doubled the price.

Neil Cherry writes:

The rim itself has blown out, tearing within the sidewall. ASCII
art cross-section of damage:


\ /
\ /
| /
| /
\ /
\__________/


Note that the rim's sidewall actually blew out, not deformed at
the top. The damaged region is about 3-4" in length. There's no
visible rim scoring indicating abrasive damage. The bike shop
confirms that the rims don't feel "grooved" or otherwise worn.
I'll try getting pics at some point if possible.

The wheel is a Mavic 217, ~26" diam, 17mm wide, hard-anodized.
This was apparently discontinued around 1997.

I'm not a wheel expert (I am an expert at destroying them) but the
only time I've seen this kind of failure is when I've tighten a
spoke (or spokes) too much. I've destroyed 3 rims that way (stupid
me).

Don't buy those rims whatever they are. Rims are supposed to carry
any spoke tension that doesn't taco the rim. I am amazed at the
user self critique so common in component failures. These are
poorly designed components. If this rim is so weak that it readily
fails in fatigue while performing otherwise than it is a dog not to
be trusted.

It's rims like these and wheel building machines that brought us
spoke-prep, a goop that is to cover for insufficiently tensioned
wheels. A tenison feature that some crack prone rims demand.

Well thanks for making me feel better, really! I was so proud of
that wheel it felt solid it was true in all directions and it
disintegrated 50 miles into a ride! It was a Mavic Open Pro
(silver). I my retry building that wheel with the Weinmann rim I
have. You just restored my confidence, not as an expert but as not
being a total screw-up. Do you have a favorite rim that could be
used for week end club rides and commutes? The max tire I can fit
is a 700x28 and that I have to keep very true.

I have old stock Mavic MA-2 rims and have used them exclusively since
dumping tubulars in the 1970's. I don't know what I'll use when these
are gone. I keep nagging the Mavic man at InterBike trade show and he
doesn't say it is impossible that the MA-2 could come back. I still
have hope. It was the touring and bicycle sport favorite rim of the
world. First it got displaced by the hard anodized MA-40 that brought
us the first rims on which eyelets and sockets pulled through, and
then came a slew of structurally inferior rims with all sorts of
pizzas that doubled the price.

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 01:48:42 GMT, wrote:
Neil Cherry writes:

Well thanks for making me feel better, really! I was so proud of
that wheel it felt solid it was true in all directions and it
disintegrated 50 miles into a ride! It was a Mavic Open Pro
(silver). I my retry building that wheel with the Weinmann rim I
have. You just restored my confidence, not as an expert but as not
being a total screw-up. Do you have a favorite rim that could be
used for week end club rides and commutes? The max tire I can fit
is a 700x28 and that I have to keep very true.

I have old stock Mavic MA-2 rims and have used them exclusively since
dumping tubulars in the 1970's. I don't know what I'll use when these
are gone. I keep nagging the Mavic man at InterBike trade show and he
doesn't say it is impossible that the MA-2 could come back. I still
have hope. It was the touring and bicycle sport favorite rim of the
world. First it got displaced by the hard anodized MA-40 that brought
us the first rims on which eyelets and sockets pulled through, and
then came a slew of structurally inferior rims with all sorts of
pizzas that doubled the price.

Here's a list of what's survived and died. 4 Mavic Open Pro's one with
a 5 spoke failure (that's the one I built), the rest with 1 or 2
spokes pulled out, 1 Trek Matrix Titan (I still have a Titan II) and
some others Mavics that I can't remember. The MA40 I have still works
but I don't trust it. The Weinmann I put on one of the Open Pro
failures and 2 Mavic A719 (36 spoke). I have 1 Wheelsmith wheel I
threw out of true in a month (Open Pro). All of these wheels have been
used on my commutes (rough roads) with an additional 40lbs of weight
in a back pack or towing a BOB trailer with at least that much
weight. With the BOB I'm not afraid to throw in too much.

BTW, the A719 are a bit tight between the stays.

A friend of mine wears out wheels (same roads, but he weight 40lbs
more than I do). He's destroyed a set of CXP 33's with his winter
night time riding. It gets to be a bit hard to see the good road at
night.

--
Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry
http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only)
http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II)
http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog