Bike shop owners, wheel gurus: truing questions

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
Pat Lamb wrote:

Just so I'm clear on things, though, are wheels straight out of the
machine typically trued, rounded, dished, tensioned, and stress relieved
properly, or does the LBS or new owner need to double-check?


Wheels outta the machine are generally none of those things. Kinda
straight, mostly undertensioned, never very round, Never stress
relieved..

OK, one more thing to add to the list of stuff I don't particularly like
about the mass retail bike business. (By that I mean complete bikes
sold by LBS, and presumably delivered to the LBS complete, in a box.)

vent

Based on my observations, most bicycles come from a typical bike shop
(that doesn't speak Campa) with three issues:

1a. Forks are often, not always, cut off too short, making it hard to
raise the bars to a point anyone other than a dedicated racer would be
comfortable on the bike.

1b. Many, not all, shops don't do a decent fitting job with the stem.
IMHO, the shop should swap stems (at least threadless stems) to get a
fit. I've been told I'd have to pay for a new stem at a couple of
shops, and no LBS I've been to has been willing to swap the stem even at
the time of a bike purchase.

2. 2/3 of the bikes I've checked were delivered with insufficient
grease in the hubs. LBS could check and correct, but shouldn't the
wheels come out of the box ready to ride?

3. Now add to that the machine-built wheels should be hand-tuned, but
often aren't. I've seen a bike taken out of the box and put on the
floor in 15 minutes -- no way they checked all that out.

I expect a new bicycle to be delivered ready to ride, and fit to the
buyer. I don't frankly know who to blame this situation on. Do the
manufacturers bear the blame for not delivering wheels ready to ride?
Or does the LBS get the blame for slinging the bikes out of the box, on
to the floor, and out the door, ready or not?

I don't doubt there are a few shops that check all these. They probably
deserve full list price on the bikes they sell, or even a bit more for
the mechanic's time. But I get the feeling this is a case of cheap
driving out good, and that's not good long-term for developing a
knowledgeable, participating bicycling population, aka possible repeat
buyers.

/vent

I guess I'd better get ready to pay a bit more for my next bike. Or
maybe just treat it like a bicycle kit, everything screwed on and ready
to assemble.

Pat

Pat Lamb wrote:
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
Pat Lamb wrote:

Just so I'm clear on things, though, are wheels straight out of the
machine typically trued, rounded, dished, tensioned, and stress relieved
properly, or does the LBS or new owner need to double-check?


Wheels outta the machine are generally none of those things. Kinda
straight, mostly undertensioned, never very round, Never stress
relieved..

OK, one more thing to add to the list of stuff I don't particularly like
about the mass retail bike business. (By that I mean complete bikes
sold by LBS, and presumably delivered to the LBS complete, in a box.)

vent

Based on my observations, most bicycles come from a typical bike shop
(that doesn't speak Campa) with three issues:

1a. Forks are often, not always, cut off too short, making it hard to
raise the bars to a point anyone other than a dedicated racer would be
comfortable on the bike.

I've complained about this often and loud. I think Mike J. got tired
and thought I was whipping on the shops too hard ;-)

1b. Many, not all, shops don't do a decent fitting job with the stem.
IMHO, the shop should swap stems (at least threadless stems) to get a
fit. I've been told I'd have to pay for a new stem at a couple of
shops, and no LBS I've been to has been willing to swap the stem even at
the time of a bike purchase.

2. 2/3 of the bikes I've checked were delivered with insufficient
grease in the hubs. LBS could check and correct, but shouldn't the
wheels come out of the box ready to ride?

Another frequent complaint. I've opened up hubs on new bikes friends
have purchase and found that the hubs have almost no grease in the
races. Time to load those puppies up.

3. Now add to that the machine-built wheels should be hand-tuned, but
often aren't. I've seen a bike taken out of the box and put on the
floor in 15 minutes -- no way they checked all that out.

I expect a new bicycle to be delivered ready to ride, and fit to the
buyer. I don't frankly know who to blame this situation on. Do the
manufacturers bear the blame for not delivering wheels ready to ride?
Or does the LBS get the blame for slinging the bikes out of the box, on
to the floor, and out the door, ready or not?

Boy, tough. I know that shops operate on low margins, but they should
be working with the manufacturers to make things better.

I don't doubt there are a few shops that check all these. They probably
deserve full list price on the bikes they sell, or even a bit more for
the mechanic's time. But I get the feeling this is a case of cheap
driving out good, and that's not good long-term for developing a
knowledgeable, participating bicycling population, aka possible repeat
buyers.

/vent

I guess I'd better get ready to pay a bit more for my next bike. Or
maybe just treat it like a bicycle kit, everything screwed on and ready
to assemble.

Good way to look at it; getting your hands onto it and into it will
give you more confidence in the bike and its state. You will not have
to guess if the hubs are running dry since you will have checked and no
that they are well greased. You will know the wheels are tensioned and
stress relieved and should last long. More you know, the fewer
surprises that should come your way.

BTW, back to your original questions. My commute bike, sitting behind
me at the moment, has a set of wheels I built last year. 5K miles or
so on them so far (one of 4 bikes, mileage gets shared, so my mileage
is well above Schubert's figure of 2200/yr). That is 5K miles, most
with some load, some of the commute on a poorly maintained trail. Zero
times in the truing stand since I built them up - no reason to suspect
I needed to do so. As an aside, the hubs are Phil Wood - made in 1979,
still going strong. Had the rear serviced last year, needed new
bearings (my cost) and a new axle (covered under warranty). Gotta love
stuff that works, and works, and works ... and needs little attention.

- rick

Pat Lamb wrote:


OK, one more thing to add to the list of stuff I don't particularly like
about the mass retail bike business. (By that I mean complete bikes
sold by LBS, and presumably delivered to the LBS complete, in a box.)

vent

Based on my observations, most bicycles come from a typical bike shop
(that doesn't speak Campa) with three issues:

1a. Forks are often, not always, cut off too short, making it hard to
raise the bars to a point anyone other than a dedicated racer would be
comfortable on the bike.

1b. Many, not all, shops don't do a decent fitting job with the stem.
IMHO, the shop should swap stems (at least threadless stems) to get a
fit. I've been told I'd have to pay for a new stem at a couple of
shops, and no LBS I've been to has been willing to swap the stem even at
the time of a bike purchase.

2. 2/3 of the bikes I've checked were delivered with insufficient
grease in the hubs. LBS could check and correct, but shouldn't the
wheels come out of the box ready to ride?

3. Now add to that the machine-built wheels should be hand-tuned, but
often aren't. I've seen a bike taken out of the box and put on the
floor in 15 minutes -- no way they checked all that out.

I expect a new bicycle to be delivered ready to ride, and fit to the
buyer. I don't frankly know who to blame this situation on. Do the
manufacturers bear the blame for not delivering wheels ready to ride? Or
does the LBS get the blame for slinging the bikes out of the box, on to
the floor, and out the door, ready or not?

I don't doubt there are a few shops that check all these. They probably
deserve full list price on the bikes they sell, or even a bit more for
the mechanic's time. But I get the feeling this is a case of cheap
driving out good, and that's not good long-term for developing a
knowledgeable, participating bicycling population, aka possible repeat
buyers.

/vent

I guess I'd better get ready to pay a bit more for my next bike. Or
maybe just treat it like a bicycle kit, everything screwed on and ready
to assemble.

Pat


Have you ever changed a stem? It takes a long time. You have to deal
with the break levers, brake and gear cables, gear shifters and the
handlebar tape or grips.

Check the grease in the hubs? I don't think so. Is this a common problem?

Yes, these things should be ready to ride. I'm sure that if the LBS did
all the above, they'd lose big money on the bike. So I guess I would
blame the manufacture on the insufficient grease in the hubs and the
badly made wheels, but I'm not sure what to say about the stem. The good
news is that adjustable stems have become common.

I haven't been in the business for many years, but when I was, the
margin on bicycles was shockingly low.



--
Tom Reingold
Noo Joizy
This email address works, but only for a short time.

By the way, it's not clear to me what you mean by inadequate grease. The
balls in the bearing ride on a tiny film of grease. That's all you need.
The rest is pushed aside and serves no purpose. We put a gob of grease
in, not for lubrication, but to hold the balls in place while we
assemble the bearing.

So this complaint may be about nothing.

Tom

wrote:

Just touch up those machine built wheels next time. I think they are a good
bargain if they are made of good components.

I've found this to be true. As one example, a popular wheel pair made
from Mavic rims, Shimano Ultegra hubs and DT spokes is often sold for
around $200, when the components bought separately from the same source
are more like $300.

A spoke wrench is about $7 and the "how-to" book $25 -- a bargain!

Tom Reingold wrote:

Have you ever changed a stem? It takes a long time. You have to deal
with the break levers, brake and gear cables, gear shifters and the
handlebar tape or grips.

Old school, shows you have not been into a shop and looked hard lately.
Almost all stems have removable faceplates. The days of removing
everything from the handlebars to change a stem are rapidly receding
into a memory of the past. To be honest, 3 of my 4 bikes have old
style quill stems without removable faceplates, but you would be hard
pressed to find a bike in a bike shop these days that does not have a
stem with the removable face.

Check the grease in the hubs? I don't think so. Is this a common problem?

Absolutely, though I fault the manufacturers first, but the shops
should check and rail on the manufacturers to do it right. Most of the
hubs I have opened on new bike recently have just a token smear of
grease around the races - absolutely insufficient.

Yes, these things should be ready to ride. I'm sure that if the LBS did
all the above, they'd lose big money on the bike. So I guess I would
blame the manufacture on the insufficient grease in the hubs and the
badly made wheels,

Again, tough call but if the shop is not railing on their supplier to
clean things up then they are part of the problem.

but I'm not sure what to say about the stem. The good
news is that adjustable stems have become common.

Adjustable stems are not that common and do not do an adequate job. To
shorten reach the height is increased. There is no way to
independently adjust height and reach, which is what is really
required.

The bigger issue in the world of 'threadless' steerers/headsets/etc. is
that rather than fitting the user properly and then cutting the
steerer, many shops take the shortcut of cutting the steerer down to
near its minimum - at headset level or only 1-3mm above the headset.
This means there is essentially 0 capability of adjusting bar height as
part of the fitting process. Saves the shop time, but leads to many,
many, many unsatisfied customers. If a shop does not leave me at
least 4-8 cm of steerer above the headset there is no way they will get
the sell.

I haven't been in the business for many years, but when I was, the
margin on bicycles was shockingly low.

Still is. That is why shop owners need to get their suppliers to get
them merchandise in a condition where it needs minimum work before
rolling out the door.

- rick

wrote:
Tom Reingold wrote:


Have you ever changed a stem? It takes a long time. You have to deal
with the break levers, brake and gear cables, gear shifters and the
handlebar tape or grips.


Old school, shows you have not been into a shop and looked hard lately.
Almost all stems have removable faceplates. The days of removing
everything from the handlebars to change a stem are rapidly receding
into a memory of the past. To be honest, 3 of my 4 bikes have old
style quill stems without removable faceplates, but you would be hard
pressed to find a bike in a bike shop these days that does not have a
stem with the removable face.


Quite right. Actually, I was playing with one of those stems recently
but forgot about that!


--
Tom Reingold
Noo Joizy
This email address works, but only for a short time.

Tom Reingold wrote:
By the way, it's not clear to me what you mean by inadequate grease. The
balls in the bearing ride on a tiny film of grease. That's all you need.

In dry conditions, I'd agree with you, but I ride pretty often in the
rain, and that little glob of grease does nothing to keep water and
grit out. Every hub I now have (all Shimano) with the original grease,
has needed cleaning and relubing after 1 ride in the rain.

I now pack hubs full with sticky marine grease, and water and dirt do
not seem to get in.

"Pat Lamb" wrote in message
...
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
Pat Lamb wrote:

vent

Vent away! I'm with you on all your points.


Based on my observations, most bicycles come from a typical bike shop
(that doesn't speak Campa) with three issues:

1a. Forks are often, not always, cut off too short, making it hard to
raise the bars to a point anyone other than a dedicated racer would be
comfortable on the bike.

I've heard one "excuse" is most LBS feel bikes "look sleeker" with lower
bars and hence are easier to sell.***


1b. Many, not all, shops don't do a decent fitting job with the stem.
IMHO, the shop should swap stems (at least threadless stems) to get a fit.
I've been told I'd have to pay for a new stem at a couple of shops, and no
LBS I've been to has been willing to swap the stem even at the time of a
bike purchase.

See also below.***



I expect a new bicycle to be delivered ready to ride, and fit to the
buyer. I don't frankly know who to blame this situation on. Do the
manufacturers bear the blame for not delivering wheels ready to ride? Or
does the LBS get the blame for slinging the bikes out of the box, on to
the floor, and out the door, ready or not?


*** One group that needs to accept their fair share of the blame: THE
CUSTOMER.

Without getting into whether it's right, wrong or decadent, our capitalistic
system is PERFECT, as long as the consumer knows how to use it!

The client has only to say "NO" and take their money elsewhere. If,
collectively, the consumer would realize their power AND educate themselves
so nobody could pull the wool over their eyes, the kind of ridiculous
practices we're talking about wouldn't exist. The people who perpetuated
them would go out of business or change their ways.

That's one of the great things about the internet and discussions like this
one - the wool gets lifted.


I don't doubt there are a few shops that check all these. They probably
deserve full list price on the bikes they sell, or even a bit more for the
mechanic's time. But I get the feeling this is a case of cheap driving
out good, and that's not good long-term for developing a knowledgeable,
participating bicycling population, aka possible repeat buyers.

There are one or two shops in my POP. 1 million home town that really take
their time with the clients and have fitting machines to do proper bike
sizing. They also have the ability to custom make a bike (might have a
machine shop/welding facility right there - don't know). You might pay
slightly more for a bike there but it pales in comparison to the value
added.
Interestingly, while they're on the French side of the border, they are VERY
friendly with English buyers. (we have some people locally - being on the
Quebec/Ontario border - who are very distrustful and discourteous to
unilinguals of the opposite language - such is life) They also seem to JUMP
on the chance to make things right - swap a stem? Chainring? Tire? No
problem.

I gotta assume that every major urban center has at least one shop that
really prides itself on that kind of service and earns it's repeat business
that way.

Chris - Canada's National Capital

wrote:

wrote:

Just touch up those machine built wheels next time. I think they are a good
bargain if they are made of good components.

I've found this to be true. As one example, a popular wheel pair made
from Mavic rims, Shimano Ultegra hubs and DT spokes is often sold for
around $200, when the components bought separately from the same source
are more like $300.

A spoke wrench is about $7 and the "how-to" book $25 -- a bargain!

I purchased the how to book, spoke wrench, Blue Loctite and a trueing
stand in response to my new bike wheels quickly going untrue. ( 265
plus rider ). I read the book many times and proceded to rework the
wheels and they have now remained perfect at 4500 commuting miles.

I just took the plunge and ordered the machine built Mavic Open
Pro/Ultegra/DT spoke wheels for $160 pls shipping ( P******ance Bike
Shop $199.00 + 20% off coupon). Cheaper than I could purchase the
parts. I reworked the wheels and no problems after a few hundred
miles.