More from the UK: "Bike lanes save lives of drivers as well ascyclists, study finds"

On 6/2/2019 3:51 PM, Duane wrote:
sms wrote:
On 6/2/2019 8:45 AM, Duane wrote:

snip

It’s hard to tell sometime. You’ve been to Montreal I think. We have a
lot of bicycles and a lot of bike lanes. Chicken and egg? I know there
isn’t much infrastructure here that goes unused. At least once the snow
melts. 6 month winters is the problem here.

I think that some people have the idea that days after the construction
of bicycle infrastructure is completed that suddenly bicycle use
skyrockets. When that doesn't happen they loudly proclaim that this
proves that bicycle infrastructure doesn't contribute much to increased
cycling levels and was a waste of money.

The old Chinese proverb of "The best time to construct a protected bike
lane was 20 years ago. The second best time is now" applies.



I can’t say. I’ve been here for about 25 years and the number of cyclists
seems to be increasing along with the architecture. I don’t see which is
cause and which is effect.

Or if there’s a direct correlation. Except for the bike path that they
build between our neighbourhood and our local grammar school. The bike
racks at the school are now full when they were empty before.

I'm all in favor of shortcut MUPs between residential neighborhoods and
schools. I know of several within five miles of me, and all seem to get
plenty of use. In fact, in a recent one-on-one meeting with a local
zoning official, I strongly suggested one of those be upgraded to modern
standards.

I'd lobby for similar connectors from residential neighborhoods to
adjacent shopping centers, to adjacent parks, to libraries, etc. I think
those are the low hanging fruit of bicycle and pedestrian connectivity.
Plus, if they're completely separated from motor vehicle traffic (as my
examples are) they don't have the intersection conflicts that bedevil
other "bike paths."

Intersections are what make segregation difficult or dangerous. That
includes intersections with driveways. Most pie-in-the-sky facility
promoters don't recognize or acknowledge that fact.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 3:51:14 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 11:45:49 AM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 10:06:10 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 6/1/2019 10:54 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

Not to disparage the Netherlands but you have been building bike lanes
since the late 1890's and the use of bicycles is much, much higher
than in the U.S.

If only we could figure out if there were a relationship with building
more bike lanes and much higher use of bicycles.

In some locales there might be a bit of an increase in bicycle use but
the predominate trend seems to be no, building more bike lanes does NOT
normally mean a MUCH HIGHER use of bicycles.

Cheers


It’s hard to tell sometime. You’ve been to Montreal I think. We have a
lot of bicycles and a lot of bike lanes. Chicken and egg? I know there
isn’t much infrastructure here that goes unused. At least once the snow
melts. 6 month winters is the problem here.

--
duane

I'm not too familiar with Montreal. I have been to Ottawa a few times in
years gone by and remember bike lanes that ran on the road, then up onto
the sidewalks then back onto the roads. Interesting.

Cheers


Been to Ottawa but I don’t remember that. We do a ride from Montreal to
Gatineau so I’ve ridden in Ottawa but just a bit. Gatineau Park is a cool
place to ride a bike though.

Right on red is illegal in Montreal so that may help things. Or hinder
depending on your point of view.

--
duane

It was many years ago and it was down near LeBreton Flats (where there
used to be a campground)and Parliament vicinity iirc. It might have
changed over the years. It might have been further into town too as I did have my bicycle.

Just looked at Google Maps and I don't recognize any of the roads except
Booth and Eddy streets.

I used to cross the Chaudiere Bridge on Eddy street and ride into Hull
and go to Cycle Bertrand. That was a neat store. I see there's still a
Cycle Bertrand in hull on Eddy Street.

Cheers


I know that bridge. The shop is still there. Or was last year. A guy
broke his rim and had it replaced there.

--
duane

On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 7:30:12 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 3:51:14 PM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 11:45:49 AM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Sunday, June 2, 2019 at 10:06:10 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 6/1/2019 10:54 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

Not to disparage the Netherlands but you have been building bike lanes
since the late 1890's and the use of bicycles is much, much higher
than in the U.S.

If only we could figure out if there were a relationship with building
more bike lanes and much higher use of bicycles.

In some locales there might be a bit of an increase in bicycle use but
the predominate trend seems to be no, building more bike lanes does NOT
normally mean a MUCH HIGHER use of bicycles.

Cheers


It’s hard to tell sometime. You’ve been to Montreal I think. We have a
lot of bicycles and a lot of bike lanes. Chicken and egg? I know there
isn’t much infrastructure here that goes unused. At least once the snow
melts. 6 month winters is the problem here.

--
duane

I'm not too familiar with Montreal. I have been to Ottawa a few times in
years gone by and remember bike lanes that ran on the road, then up onto
the sidewalks then back onto the roads. Interesting.

Cheers


Been to Ottawa but I don’t remember that. We do a ride from Montreal to
Gatineau so I’ve ridden in Ottawa but just a bit. Gatineau Park is a cool
place to ride a bike though.

Right on red is illegal in Montreal so that may help things. Or hinder
depending on your point of view.

--
duane

It was many years ago and it was down near LeBreton Flats (where there
used to be a campground)and Parliament vicinity iirc. It might have
changed over the years. It might have been further into town too as I did have my bicycle.

Just looked at Google Maps and I don't recognize any of the roads except
Booth and Eddy streets.

I used to cross the Chaudiere Bridge on Eddy street and ride into Hull
and go to Cycle Bertrand. That was a neat store. I see there's still a
Cycle Bertrand in hull on Eddy Street.

Cheers


I know that bridge. The shop is still there. Or was last year. A guy
broke his rim and had it replaced there.

--
duane

When I used to camp in LeBreton Flats Cycle Bertrand was a fantastic shop. They had a lot of neat stuff for touring too.

Cheers

On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 07:06:04 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 6/1/2019 10:54 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:

snip

Not to disparage the Netherlands but you have been building bike lanes
since the late 1890's and the use of bicycles is much, much higher
than in the U.S.

If only we could figure out if there were a relationship with building
more bike lanes and much higher use of bicycles.

The Dutch Bicycle Master Plan that I reviewed seemed to indicate that
bicycle riding was not driven by the building of bicycle paths but
rather that historically economics had driven bicycle use.

In 1932, just prior to WW II, autos accounted for 39% of road traffic
while bicycles accounted for 54%.
After WW II with the large growth in the economy, disposable income
grew by a factor of 300 percent between 1950 and 1975 with the
equivalent growth in auto use.
From 1950 to 1975, the bicycle was almost entirely excluded from the
government's vision. In fact in 1963, the city of Heerlen decided to
remove a number of bicycle paths along several main roads and to use
that space for widening the streets and car parking facilities.
Removing the bicycle paths also resulted in a number of other
advantages:
"The head of the traffic police division has declared that the city's
traffic situation is leading increasingly to the use of traffic
signals at intersections. Should bicycle paths appear at these
intersections, this would require separate traffic signals, which
would be too costly. Moreover, it would cause too great a delay for
'fast' traffic."

Staring in the 1970's traffic safety became a political item,
particularly on a local level, when the annual number
of road victims reached an all-time high in 1972. The oil crisis was
taking place in the Netherlands at this time thus ,making auto use
more expensive.

Resistance to conceding entirely to the demands of the car rapidly
gained ground. Car traffic regulation and the promotion of public
transport became topics of discussion. Parking fees were levied in
city centers and the first woonerfs (small residential areas where
pedestrians have priority and car speeds are
restricted) were created.

So there you have it. A nation where historically bicycle use had been
almost universal. In 1928 bicycle ownership in the Netherlands was one
bike per 3.25 individuals while auto ownership was 1 auto per 208
individuals (in contrast the U.S. had a ratio of one bike per 70
people and one auto per 6 people in the same period). Which, with an
increase in disposable earnings, brought more and more automobiles and
than when traffic became a problem - remember that Amsterdam dates
back to the 1100's and much of the inner city was built in the horse
and buggy days with narrow streets and few if any parking spaces -
which is typical of nearly all of Europe's major cities, made public
transportation and as a correlation bicycles, a priority.
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 2 Jun 2019 12:15:55 -0700, sms
wrote:

The old Chinese proverb of "The best time to construct a protected bike
lane was 20 years ago. The second best time is now"

"The old Chinese proverb"?

Tell us, oh great pundit, is this a quote from the "The Little Red
Book"?
--

Cheers,

John B.