Overhanging trees on trails

On 8/1/2013 2:51 PM, sms wrote:

As to flashing LED lights on bicycles, they definitely get the attention
of motorists. They are blinding, but I see how they could be perceived
as annoying.

Oops, "They are NOT blinding, but I see how they could be perceived as
annoying."

Phil W Lee writes:

sms considered Thu, 01 Aug 2013 06:01:18
-0700 the perfect time to write:

On 8/1/2013 5:58 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:

You couldn't possibly be more wrong. But that's OK, keep wondering why
people think you're an asshole while you blind them with your inferior
lights.

I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong, and there's no
upside in that.

Come and ride in Europe then, and get nicked for illegal lighting.
I'm sure the nice policeman will explain it to you, and you can argue
it with him.


This isn't Europe (though Nate obviously has a German fetish).
You like to trumpet the depressing effect of substantially non-
existent and entirely unenforced helmet laws on what is already
pathetic bicycle use. Do you have *any* idea what nice police-
men nicking every bike over so many kilograms without a proper
dynamo system would do the already pathetic participation rate??
Or every bike without certified fraudendhsreudne lights? Gas
prices would jump the next day, hater cagers would cheer anyway,
and the few remaining stalwarts would suffer their rallied,
concentrated wrath.

In the long run is another story, but for now, let them use
blinkies and flashlights here if it will get them on bikes.

I'll even buy the popcorn to watch that exchange

We could put it on youtube. Would be expecially entertaining with
a language barrier, no? :-)

N8N writes:


snip


But in reality this discussion is somewhat irrelevant because in my experience I pretty much have the brightest lighting setup that I've seen... most riders that I've seen with lights tend to have little plasticky clip on the handlebars LED things that are really more "be seen" lights than "see by" lights.


And that's exactly the point. If Frank had his way and German
bike lighting regulations were applied here, a million beach
cruisers that are the only good exercise a million diabetes
candidates are getting would be collecting dust in the garage.
Two million crappy MTBs that are the primary transportation for
three million entry-level workers would have to stick to back
roads and ride in anxious fear of getting a ticket they can't
afford. Battery retailers, OTOH, would love the ban on
flashing LED's. All for your elitism.

On 8/1/2013 7:34 PM, Dan wrote:

Come and ride in Europe then, and get nicked for illegal lighting.
I'm sure the nice policeman will explain it to you, and you can argue
it with him.


This isn't Europe (though Nate obviously has a German fetish).

Sigh, some people will never understand the fact that there are
different cycling environments in different countries.

Still, I'm surprised that police anywhere would have the time to ticket
someone for having bicycle lights that are better than the law requires.
In Germany you now have lights being sold that don't meet the StVZO
restrictions because they're sold for off-road use only, but of course
they're being used on-road.

On Thu, 01 Aug 2013 19:34:32 -0700, Dan
wrote:

Phil W Lee writes:

sms considered Thu, 01 Aug 2013 06:01:18
-0700 the perfect time to write:

On 8/1/2013 5:58 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:

You couldn't possibly be more wrong. But that's OK, keep wondering why
people think you're an asshole while you blind them with your inferior
lights.

I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong, and there's no
upside in that.

Come and ride in Europe then, and get nicked for illegal lighting.
I'm sure the nice policeman will explain it to you, and you can argue
it with him.


This isn't Europe (though Nate obviously has a German fetish).
You like to trumpet the depressing effect of substantially non-
existent and entirely unenforced helmet laws on what is already
pathetic bicycle use. Do you have *any* idea what nice police-
men nicking every bike over so many kilograms without a proper
dynamo system would do the already pathetic participation rate??
Or every bike without certified fraudendhsreudne lights? Gas
prices would jump the next day, hater cagers would cheer anyway,
and the few remaining stalwarts would suffer their rallied,
concentrated wrath.

Sorry Dan, it don't work that a way.

If you are brought up in a society that has a law, say about bike
lights, then you have been aware of this regulation your whole life
and you don't feel oppressed because this law is enforced.

In the long run is another story, but for now, let them use
blinkies and flashlights here if it will get them on bikes.

I'll even buy the popcorn to watch that exchange

We could put it on youtube. Would be expecially entertaining with
a language barrier, no? :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, August 1, 2013 9:34:32 PM UTC-5, Dan wrote:
Phil W Lee writes:



sms considered Thu, 01 Aug 2013 06:01:18

-0700 the perfect time to write:



On 8/1/2013 5:58 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:



You couldn't possibly be more wrong. But that's OK, keep wondering why

people think you're an asshole while you blind them with your inferior

lights.



I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong, and there's no

upside in that.



Come and ride in Europe then, and get nicked for illegal lighting.

I'm sure the nice policeman will explain it to you, and you can argue

it with him.





This isn't Europe (though Nate obviously has a German fetish).

You like to trumpet the depressing effect of substantially non-

existent and entirely unenforced helmet laws on what is already

pathetic bicycle use. Do you have *any* idea what nice police-

men nicking every bike over so many kilograms without a proper

dynamo system would do the already pathetic participation rate??

Or every bike without certified fraudendhsreudne lights? Gas

prices would jump the next day, hater cagers would cheer anyway,

and the few remaining stalwarts would suffer their rallied,

concentrated wrath.

Who's talking about legally mandating anything?

I'm just pointing out that those who claim that high-powered flashlights make good lights for riding on the roads are giving bad information, is all.

And yes, I drive German cars, too (although both my bikes are proudly made in the USA)

On Thursday, August 1, 2013 1:14:28 PM UTC-5, Phil W Lee wrote:
sms considered Thu, 01 Aug 2013 08:49:00

-0700 the perfect time to write:


snippo


There have been some attempts to do something like a high/low beam car

headlight with LEDs because there are times when a cyclist can safely

use a shaped beam (low beam). I don't think that there are any

commercial products available though

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?344844-19-up-XPG-Bike-Light-with-Main-Dip-Road-Beam-Profile.



Lots of them - just fit a decent purpose designed bicycle light with a

shaped beam, and add one of your pet eyeball burners as a high beam -

with the switch within easy reach of a thumb or finger.



Which is what I do when I'm riding in complete darkness, and suggested that early on in the thread. But apparently that isn't an ideal solution for some reason (it seems pretty damn ideal to me!)


Of course, that's not an all-in-one package deal, but then very few

people feel the need for your searchlights, as they find the proper

bicycle lights perfectly adequate.

There aren't many cyclists who routinely out-ride a dipped beam

headlamp.



The other issue with most of the lower cost lights is that the beam

isn't bright enough, or shaped in a way that lets you see far enough

ahead when riding at higher speeds. It's too easy to outrun your lights.

The StVZO requirements make this a requirement in Germany which is why

serious German cyclists are finding ways to work around this regulation.



What, like entering events like Paris-Brest-Paris with StVZO

regulation lights.

Maybe you don't believe those are "serious cyclists"?



I like the comparator at

http://road.cc/content/news/69237-big-roadcc-lights-test-2012. For

example, compare the Magicshine MJ808-E ($80) with the Lezyne Power

Drive XL ($80).



You would, since it doesn't include any lights which are legal in it's

country of publication.

Actually, I saw a couple B&M and Supernova lights in the drop down.

Comparing those to the others can is actually "enlightening" as you can clearly see why they're better from the beam patterns and beamshots.

I'm assuming that the intended audience is GB as prices are given in pounds, but I can't seem to find the text of BS6102 (appears to be similar to SAE docs where you have to purchase them to read them) but here is another comparison with some pretty awful lights which are sold as being conforming to the standard.

http://blog.tredz.co.uk/best-bike-li...-and-reviewed/

which is sad, overall.

I mean, honestly, someone using a low power flashlight as a "be seen" light is not a big deal, but with high power flashlights becoming so common and cheap if you know where to look and most bicycle lights using flashlight optics I want to educate people about the differences between flashlight optics and road light optics, *not* purchase any lights marketed as bicycle lights that have flashlight optics, and encourage others to make educated decisions about bicycle lighting as it seems that one has to stray from the brick and mortar stores to find the good stuff (much like many other things in life it seems.)


nate

On Thursday, August 1, 2013 1:20:18 PM UTC-5, sms wrote:
On 8/1/2013 10:45 AM, N8N wrote:



That's right, when you're wrong, just keep repeating the same false statements over and over and over again.



Sorry, I've provided evidence of my position. It's you that just keeps

repeating the same false things continuously. It's okay if you disagree

with me. I can't force you to be right.





Have you ever actually looked into a 500 lumen flashlight, even from a decent distance away?



Yes.



Nope, I don't like "flashlights" for bike use because they have symmetrical beam patterns



As do most higher end bicycle lights.



and can blind other road users.



You're thinking of the crazy-bright lights of 1200-3000 lumens. A

properly aimed 500 lumen light with a symmetrical beam, whether it's a

flashlight or a bicycle light, is not going to blind other road users.


Again, you are repeating a falsehood to support your incorrect position.

Go set up a bike with a 500 lumen flashlight as a headlight, then get in a car and face one way down the street while a friend rides your bike towards you. Then say that again with a straight face.



I think that were you're most confused

I'm not confused at all.

is in the beam patterns of higher

end bicycle lights versus flashlights. Unless the former is

intentionally crippled for StVZO compliance,

It's a rare light that I would consider a "high end" light suitable for road riding that isn't StVZO compliant.

the beams are both close to

symmetrical.



Those are not high end lights. Those are lights with high price tags, either intended for off-road use or just not properly engineered for the application.


Ideally, there would be more lights like the Silva Pavé with two

separate LEDs and reflectors so you can have essentially a low beam and

a high beam

http://road.cc/content/review/71280-silva-pav%C3%A9-front-light. Alas,

it's more than $200, so the market for it is limited.

yeah, so why not just get a good bicycle light and then use whatever you want as a high beam? Like I've been suggesting all along? Then you don't have to lay out a lot of cash up front, and honestly, how many people regularly need a high beam anyway?

nate

On Friday, 2 August 2013 16:43:17 UTC+1, Phil W Lee wrote:
N8N considered Fri, 2 Aug 2013 05:59:32 -0700

(PDT) the perfect time to write:



On Thursday, August 1, 2013 1:14:28 PM UTC-5, Phil W Lee wrote:

sms considered Thu, 01 Aug 2013 08:49:00



-0700 the perfect time to write:





snippo





There have been some attempts to do something like a high/low beam car



headlight with LEDs because there are times when a cyclist can safely



use a shaped beam (low beam). I don't think that there are any



commercial products available though



http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?344844-19-up-XPG-Bike-Light-with-Main-Dip-Road-Beam-Profile.







Lots of them - just fit a decent purpose designed bicycle light with a



shaped beam, and add one of your pet eyeball burners as a high beam -



with the switch within easy reach of a thumb or finger.







Which is what I do when I'm riding in complete darkness, and suggested that early on in the thread. But apparently that isn't an ideal solution for some reason (it seems pretty damn ideal to me!)





Of course, that's not an all-in-one package deal, but then very few



people feel the need for your searchlights, as they find the proper



bicycle lights perfectly adequate.



There aren't many cyclists who routinely out-ride a dipped beam



headlamp.







The other issue with most of the lower cost lights is that the beam



isn't bright enough, or shaped in a way that lets you see far enough



ahead when riding at higher speeds. It's too easy to outrun your lights.



The StVZO requirements make this a requirement in Germany which is why



serious German cyclists are finding ways to work around this regulation.







What, like entering events like Paris-Brest-Paris with StVZO



regulation lights.



Maybe you don't believe those are "serious cyclists"?







I like the comparator at



http://road.cc/content/news/69237-big-roadcc-lights-test-2012. For



example, compare the Magicshine MJ808-E ($80) with the Lezyne Power



Drive XL ($80).







You would, since it doesn't include any lights which are legal in it's



country of publication.



Actually, I saw a couple B&M and Supernova lights in the drop down.



Comparing those to the others can is actually "enlightening" as you can clearly see why they're better from the beam patterns and beamshots.



I'm assuming that the intended audience is GB as prices are given in pounds, but I can't seem to find the text of BS6102 (appears to be similar to SAE docs where you have to purchase them to read them) but here is another comparison with some pretty awful lights which are sold as being conforming to the standard.



http://blog.tredz.co.uk/best-bike-li...-and-reviewed/



which is sad, overall.



I mean, honestly, someone using a low power flashlight as a "be seen" light is not a big deal, but with high power flashlights becoming so common and cheap if you know where to look and most bicycle lights using flashlight optics I want to educate people about the differences between flashlight optics and road light optics, *not* purchase any lights marketed as bicycle lights that have flashlight optics, and encourage others to make educated decisions about bicycle lighting as it seems that one has to stray from the brick and mortar stores to find the good stuff (much like many other things in life it seems.)



I think we're singing from the same songsheet.

I've been promoting the principles you outline here for several years

now - pretty much since high-powered flashlights have been available

(and therefore a problem).

It's a few years since I wrote an article on the subject for our local

(only about 1000 members - most local riders don't see much need for

one) cycle campaign's magazine, but in that, I advocated that for a

rider that never goes out of town, and doesn't need a light to see by,

just one that allows him to be seen, a low price light set would

suffice. For the rider who rides on unlit roads and paths, a decent

StVZO (or BS 6102 - if you can find one*) approved light is sensible,

and that one of the high-powered lights with flashlight optics and no

approval could be added to that if necessary (which would only be in

the most extreme conditions), but should only be used where it

wouldn't dazzle or annoy other users.



As I recall, UKregs stated (or equated to) a 2% fall for fancy optics, on motor-vehicles, as the dipped position headlight. It's a decent start to set up a simple beam on a bicycle but be aware that as no legislation covers this specifically on bicycles it is important to maintain a non-dazzling beam on an undulating road to remain in basic compliance of "the code" and other nonsense dreamed up by Commies/Nazis/Crown/guberment since late 1950s. On non-undulating roads the beam may be lifted so as to see further, but unless there is a cut off peak it may be difficult to ensure that dazzling is impossible. The dazzle may (though unlikely with a steady beam) cause an oncoming driver to steer towards you.



*Lights approved under other EU countries schemes are legal in the UK

if they offer an equivalent level of safety. German standards are the

highest in the EU, and are therefore legal in any EU country.

Phil W Lee writes:

Dan considered Thu, 01 Aug 2013 19:34:32
-0700 the perfect time to write:

Phil W Lee writes:

sms considered Thu, 01 Aug 2013 06:01:18
-0700 the perfect time to write:

On 8/1/2013 5:58 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:

You couldn't possibly be more wrong. But that's OK, keep wondering why
people think you're an asshole while you blind them with your inferior
lights.

I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong, and there's no
upside in that.

Come and ride in Europe then, and get nicked for illegal lighting.
I'm sure the nice policeman will explain it to you, and you can argue
it with him.


This isn't Europe (though Nate obviously has a German fetish).
You like to trumpet the depressing effect of substantially non-
existent and entirely unenforced helmet laws on what is already
pathetic bicycle use. Do you have *any* idea what nice police-
men nicking every bike over so many kilograms without a proper
dynamo system would do the already pathetic participation rate??
Or every bike without certified fraudendhsreudne lights? Gas
prices would jump the next day, hater cagers would cheer anyway,
and the few remaining stalwarts would suffer their rallied,
concentrated wrath.

You don't need to do it all in one go.
A good start would be to require (as in Germany) that all new bikes
are sold with properly designed cycle lights - dynamo ones as in
Germany, so that they can be relied on.

Then you wait a few years before making them a requirement in use, by
which time most people have got them already.
Installing as standard equipment would bring the economies of scale
that would make it a very inexpensive proposition.

I agree, and would like to see things going that direction.


In the long run is another story, but for now, let them use
blinkies and flashlights here if it will get them on bikes.

I'll even buy the popcorn to watch that exchange

We could put it on youtube. Would be expecially entertaining with
a language barrier, no? :-)

I don't think we'd need subtitles )

Or even sound for that matter :-)