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"Choosing Lights for Your Bicycle: Ten No-Compromise Requirements"article



 
 
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  #161  
Old August 15th 13, 06:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Default "Choosing Lights for Your Bicycle: Ten No-Compromise Requirements"article

On 8/15/2013 6:36 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 8/14/2013 10:30 PM, sms wrote:
On 8/14/2013 5:06 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

To get back on topic, I WILL NOT COMPROMISE ON BEAM PATTERN and any
light that goes on my bicycle will have some sort of horizontal cutoff
if it is to be used as a primary on-road light. This should be
no-compromise requirement #1.


Not if you're interested in the optimal lighting setup in terms of
illumination and safety.


That is EXACTLY what I am interested, and you appear not to give a rat's
ass about.


The key thing is to understand why it's beneficial to illuminate not
only the road in front of the bicycle, but also off to the sides and up.
It's also key to understand the science behind the daytime use of lights
for conspicuity. Understanding these two key facts is essential for
those that do not want to be limited to sub-optimal lighting. The good
news is that it's become a lot easier to research the facts on most any
subject, thanks to the Internet. It's as if some people have a nostalgic
attachment to being clueless, but it's really not necessary.

Recall the whole debate on risk-compensation in relation to helmets, and
the idea that non-helmet wearers compensate for the added risk by riding
more carefully than non-helmeted riders (which isn't borne out by
statistical data). Unlike with helmets, with lighting, you can actually
_see_ the risk-compensation in action. I observe it on a daily basis,
both while riding and driving. The cyclists with the poorer lighting
ride slower, brake more, and are more likely to have to take evasive
action against errant motorists than those cyclists that use proper
lighting. In the daytime, the difference between those with a good LED
flasher and those without, is incredibly stark.

It's still necessary to be vigilant, even with proper lighting.
Yesterday, it was clear that the driver of a vehicle backing out of a
driveway was not looking for other traffic and expected everyone else,
bicycle and motor vehicle alike, to get out of her way. Perhaps I should
not have called her a communist as I rode past, but I don't think she
heard me.

You need to keep an open mind and base your decisions on facts.
Ads
  #162  
Old August 15th 13, 09:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Nate Nagel[_2_]
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Default "Choosing Lights for Your Bicycle: Ten No-Compromise Requirements"article

On 8/15/2013 12:21 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2013 10:50 AM, sms wrote:
On 8/15/2013 4:46 AM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 07:31:56 +0100, Phil W Lee

wrote:


I'm betting that A Muzzi would LOVE to see cycle sales in
the US reach
German levels.

I believe that bike sales in the U.S. are considerably
higher, both in
volume and dollar value, then German sales.


A Muzi's shop would probably cease to exist if U.S. sales of
bicycles fell to German levels. As would many other shops.
Actually, in a way, it is going to cease to exist as he
essentially abandons the brick and mortar business and moves
the business to a village of less than 1000 residents to
concentrate on online sales.

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/yellow-jersey-waves-the-white-flag-on-state-street/article_8d5df87e-bb00-5a42-863b-368ad691c86c.html



But to be fair, Phil is probably referring to per capita
bicycle sales. Germany is #3 in per capita cyclists, though
that doesn't necessarily track spending since
transportational cyclists aren't buying $3000-4000 carbon
fiber bikes. Japan is 7th, which probably explains why a
store like Daiso has so much bicycle stuff. China is 10th.
The U.S. isn't in the top 10.

I wonder what's going on in Madison with bicycle shops.
Yellow Jersey is leaving. Williamson Bicycle Works closed
both stores in Madison. Online sales of parts and
accessories are a constant topic in _Bicycle Retailer_ and
it's amazing and sad to see the letters to the editor
written about this subject because the solution usually
sought by the shop owners is not a solution at all.
Essentially it's: "if only the manufacturers would establish
an enforce a prohibition on online sales and set minimum
prices then every buyer would willingly come to our shop and
pay whatever we charge." Sadly, it doesn't work that way.


Nice straw man there.No rational person would hold that position.

Sounds like some government employee's idea of how to get his brother in
law a job regulating bicycle stores.


My understanding of the CPSC requirement for reflectors was that at one
time a requirement for lighting was seriously considered, but dropped
under pressure from bicycle mfgrs. and retailers.

In a way, I think that was the right move, as most people don't ride
their bicycles at night. On the other hand, what's the point of just
putting reflectors on, that's not sufficient after dark nor is it
required in the daytime...?

nate
  #163  
Old August 15th 13, 09:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Nate Nagel[_2_]
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Posts: 1,872
Default "Choosing Lights for Your Bicycle: Ten No-Compromise Requirements"article

On 8/15/2013 1:23 PM, sms wrote:
On 8/15/2013 6:36 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 8/14/2013 10:30 PM, sms wrote:
On 8/14/2013 5:06 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

To get back on topic, I WILL NOT COMPROMISE ON BEAM PATTERN and any
light that goes on my bicycle will have some sort of horizontal cutoff
if it is to be used as a primary on-road light. This should be
no-compromise requirement #1.

Not if you're interested in the optimal lighting setup in terms of
illumination and safety.


That is EXACTLY what I am interested, and you appear not to give a rat's
ass about.


The key thing is to understand why it's beneficial to illuminate not
only the road in front of the bicycle, but also off to the sides and up.
It's also key to understand the science behind the daytime use of lights
for conspicuity. Understanding these two key facts is essential for
those that do not want to be limited to sub-optimal lighting. The good
news is that it's become a lot easier to research the facts on most any
subject, thanks to the Internet. It's as if some people have a nostalgic
attachment to being clueless, but it's really not necessary.


Indeed. I'm with you so far, save for the requirement for illuminating
"up." A small amount of light above horizontal is beneficial, more than
that is detrimental.

This is a *huge* deal in automotive lighting circles and has been the
subject of much discussion to the point that NHTSA actually had an open
docket and requested public comment on glare related to headlamps and DRLs.


Recall the whole debate on risk-compensation in relation to helmets, and
the idea that non-helmet wearers compensate for the added risk by riding
more carefully than non-helmeted riders (which isn't borne out by
statistical data). Unlike with helmets, with lighting, you can actually
_see_ the risk-compensation in action. I observe it on a daily basis,
both while riding and driving. The cyclists with the poorer lighting
ride slower, brake more, and are more likely to have to take evasive
action against errant motorists than those cyclists that use proper
lighting. In the daytime, the difference between those with a good LED
flasher and those without, is incredibly stark.

It's still necessary to be vigilant, even with proper lighting.
Yesterday, it was clear that the driver of a vehicle backing out of a
driveway was not looking for other traffic and expected everyone else,
bicycle and motor vehicle alike, to get out of her way. Perhaps I should
not have called her a communist as I rode past, but I don't think she
heard me.

You need to keep an open mind and base your decisions on facts.


I will *never* accept that blinding other road users makes a good light.

It's also been shown for years that a completely symmetric beam pattern
puts way too much light in the foreground and not enough far out where
you need it, thus making a rider think his lights are better than they
are, thus throwing off the whole mental risk-calculation thing. What
you really want is a reasonably sharp horizontal cutoff, but the
brightest part of the light should be directly below that point,
smoothly tapering down in output as you go down the wall from there (I'm
assuming you're shining the light on a wall to evaluate beam output. If
riding on the road, substitute "come towards the rider" for "go down the
wall.") That way, the effective amount of light that returns to the
rider's eyes doesn't drop off so dramatically as he looks farther down
the road, nor is a great portion of the light coming out of the
headlight wasted on illuminating the foreground, which a rider traveling
at any decent speed ought to be ignoring anyway, keeping his attention
farther down the road.

This is an has been for years the way automotive headlights have been
designed, and it is also the way that the better bicycle headlights have
been designed.

I suspect (and hope) with the introduction of higher-efficiency LED
emitters we will see lights with similar beam patterns to the StVZO
lights of today, but wider - which is really what the lights of a few
years ago were lacking, but lights such as the Philips Saferide and B&M
Luxos seem to be addressing, although I have not had the opportunity to
try them.

I would also love to see more higher-powered lights not necessarily
aimed at StVZO countries and therefore not limited to only 2.whatever
watts but still using a horizontal cutoff; unfortunately it seems that
there's really not much will to do that as it's easier to just use
flashlight optics and label the lights for "off-road" use (which isn't
even required, sadly, as at least in the US there are no regulations at
all on bicycle lights other than minimum conspicuity distance in some
states.)

nate
  #164  
Old August 15th 13, 11:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Default "Choosing Lights for Your Bicycle: Ten No-Compromise Requirements"article

On 8/15/2013 1:45 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:

snip

I will *never* accept that blinding other road users makes a good light.


Nor does anyone here. Your error is believing that a symmetrical beam
will blind other road users. Repeating it over and over again will not
make it true.

  #165  
Old August 15th 13, 11:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 6,153
Default "Choosing Lights for Your Bicycle: Ten No-Compromise Requirements"article

On 15/08/13 16:25, Phil W Lee wrote:
sms considered Wed, 14 Aug 2013 18:55:39
-0700 the perfect time to write:

On 8/14/2013 6:10 PM, James wrote:
On 15/08/13 10:06, Nate Nagel wrote:

No, the problem is that you continue to push for your beloved yet
inferior, rude, annoying, and dangerous when used with high power
emitters symmetrical beam patterns. I wish you'd knock it the hell off
with the bad advice and poor recommendations, you're doing everyone a
disservice. There's enough people out there who apparently think that
cyclists are annoyances on the road without you actually giving them
good reason to think so.

Any beam shape when improperly aimed can be a nuisance.

A beam shape with more spill is better for off road night riding, seeing
street signs and pedestrians, and being seen by vehicles from a wider angle.


Off-road of course all lights have symmetrical beams, but as you point
out, on-road there are significant advantages as well.


Why is it then that these significant advantages have not been noticed
by the manufacturers of every single motor vehicle manufacturer in the
world?


Motor vehicle manufacturers design for driving off road?

Have you noticed the spotlights many people add to their cars for
highway and off road use?

http://www.xenonoz.com/spotlights.php
http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/vi...939&view=print

Do you think that's just for looks and they find the vehicle
manufacturers lights sufficient?

Some of it might be bragging rights, but I can assure you there are
legitimate reasons. E.g., last weekend driving home from Euroa we had a
roo cross the road just ahead. I saw it coming and slowed the vehicle
enough even with the loaded trailer pushing to avoid bumping the roo
off. Further a sambar deer stepped out in front of us. That was
another close one. Others are not so lucky judging by the roadkill.

Last night I took note of the low beam spill to the sides in particular
from passing cars. It's quite significant off to the sides at probably
60 degrees from straight ahead. Far more light than from a "properly
focused" bicycle light. Good for seeing "stuff" on the edge of the
road, and for being seen.

Now, I'm not saying Scharfie is all good to go with his MR16s and such,
particularly if they're not aimed down a bit, but there is an argument
for more light to illuminate to the sides and up into the air a bit.
Actual users tend to agree.

Remember, I've tried focused purpose built bicycle lights as well.

--
JS
  #166  
Old August 16th 13, 12:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default "Choosing Lights for Your Bicycle: Ten No-Compromise Requirements"article

On 8/15/2013 3:55 PM, James wrote:
On 15/08/13 16:25, Phil W Lee wrote:
sms considered Wed, 14 Aug 2013 18:55:39
-0700 the perfect time to write:

On 8/14/2013 6:10 PM, James wrote:
On 15/08/13 10:06, Nate Nagel wrote:

No, the problem is that you continue to push for your beloved yet
inferior, rude, annoying, and dangerous when used with high power
emitters symmetrical beam patterns. I wish you'd knock it the hell off
with the bad advice and poor recommendations, you're doing everyone a
disservice. There's enough people out there who apparently think that
cyclists are annoyances on the road without you actually giving them
good reason to think so.

Any beam shape when improperly aimed can be a nuisance.

A beam shape with more spill is better for off road night riding, seeing
street signs and pedestrians, and being seen by vehicles from a wider angle.

Off-road of course all lights have symmetrical beams, but as you point
out, on-road there are significant advantages as well.


Why is it then that these significant advantages have not been noticed
by the manufacturers of every single motor vehicle manufacturer in the
world?


Motor vehicle manufacturers design for driving off road?

Have you noticed the spotlights many people add to their cars for
highway and off road use?


That's true. And as you point out, those lights are not solely for
off-road use though you can buy super high-power lights for off-road use
only.

That's actually a good analogy since you can also buy super high power
bicycle lights that are appropriate for off-road use only. But of course
no one here has proposed that such lights be used for on-road bicycle use.

The problem appears to be that those opposed to proper lighting have
gotten it into their head that a symmetrical beam, without cutoff, is
somehow guaranteed to be annoying to oncoming traffic, yet this is
demonstrably not true. They keep repeating their mantra but it doesn't
help their position.

Last night I took note of the low beam spill to the sides in particular
from passing cars. It's quite significant off to the sides at probably
60 degrees from straight ahead. Far more light than from a "properly
focused" bicycle light. Good for seeing "stuff" on the edge of the
road, and for being seen.


Argh, please don't call those el-junko bicycle lights "properly focused"
even in quotation marks!

Now, I'm not saying Scharfie is all good to go with his MR16s and such,
particularly if they're not aimed down a bit, but there is an argument
for more light to illuminate to the sides and up into the air a bit.
Actual users tend to agree.


The MR16 LED lamps are all aimed slightly down. MR16s are particularly
good for bicycling since they are available in a variety of beam shapes
for different purposes. They are also waterproof, have excellent matched
optics and reflectors.

Remember, I've tried focused purpose built bicycle lights as well.


As have I. I think those opposed to optimal lighting have never actually
tried it.

  #167  
Old August 16th 13, 02:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
N8N
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Default "Choosing Lights for Your Bicycle: Ten No-CompromiseRequirements" article

it's not an error; the lack of a cutoff is a serious problem when you get to higher light output levels. A high power LED light these days is encroaching on automobile headlamp output levels, at least old halogen ones. Recommending what is essentially a high beam is irresponsible and can not possibly end well. I'm a big fan of massive overkill, but not when it comes at the expense of other road users.
  #168  
Old August 16th 13, 02:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
N8N
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Default "Choosing Lights for Your Bicycle: Ten No-CompromiseRequirements" article

I have no problem with 'off road' lights used as high beams. But your primary, in town light needs to have some type of cutoff and preferably a beam pa5tern as I described in a previous post. Your beloved symmetrical beam lights are probably great for use as auxiliary lights for use when you're all by yourself and want to ride fast, but for in town use if they're bright enough to be useful for 'seeing-by' lights then they are also offensive to other road users.
  #169  
Old August 16th 13, 03:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Default "Choosing Lights for Your Bicycle: Ten No-Compromise Requirements"article

On 8/15/2013 8:49 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
John B. considered Thu, 15 Aug 2013 18:46:54
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 07:31:56 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

John B. considered Thu, 15 Aug 2013 08:40:07
+0700 the perfect time to write:

On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 22:09:26 +0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

Lou Holtman wrote:
Duane wrote:
On 8/14/2013 2:37 PM, sms wrote:
On 8/14/2013 11:22 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

I rie my road bike quite some distance most days. I use it for
transportation and I *"DO NOT WANT OR REQUIRE A HUB DYNAMO ON IT"* nor
would I want to pay the extra $ for something I neither want or need.
I'm sure that there are many other "Transportation" bicyclist who also
do not need or want any lighting system on their bike.

This is true. However it might be nice if bicycle manufacturers offered
the option to substitute a dynamo hub wheel for a non-dynamo wheel at
the time of purchase, for a nominal charge, for those that do want it;
at least on models that would be likely to be used for transportational
cycling.


The problem is that most of us don't buy bikes from manufacturers. If
the retail outlets want to offer that option I don't have a problem with
that. Choice is a good thing. Otherwise, I'm with Sir R, here. Don't
need it and don't want it. My lights are in my backpack on my commute
unless I need them. If I'm off on a road ride on the weekend, they're
still in my backpack but it's in the closet. I certainly don't want
anything built into my bike.

Where I have a problem is if I'm forced to use something that I don't
need or want, especially not based on how someone else thinks I should use my bike.


Do you really think the Germans and we, the Dutch, have dynohubs on our
roadbikes, Atb's or crossbikes? We only think it is stupid to have battery
powered lights on bikes which are regularly used when it is dark. Think of
a family with three kids going to school on bike all with battery powered
lights? You gotta be kidding.


No I don't think that but some people here are calling for bikes to be
"manufactured" with hub dynamos or for them to be mandated. I can't see the
government making the distinction between a road bike and a commuter.

I would guess that if bicycles were sold with a mandated dyno-hub and
lights meeting some sort of "standard" there would be a huge outcry
from the cycling brotherhood.

We might ask A Muzi what he estimates a mandated lighting system might
add to the price of a bike, but my guess would be that if it was a
matter of government fiat, with manufacturers required to pass some
sort of government inspection and gain government approval together
with penalties for those who sold non-approved lighting, it would not
be cheap.

Then too, if one has a mandated requirement then one must have some
sort of inspection function to ensure that "unsafe" systems are not
being used, and of course, some sort of documentation that the
inspection had been passed......

It's easy to find the illegal ones.
They trail swearing and threats of justified violence in their wake.

I'm betting that A Muzzi would LOVE to see cycle sales in the US reach
German levels.


I believe that bike sales in the U.S. are considerably higher, both in
volume and dollar value, then German sales.


Per capita?

I'd be very very surprised.


I had no idea but it seems roughly 82 million Germans buy
about 4.05 million bikes (2011) or 1:20.25 while 330 million
USAians buy about 12 million bicycles or about 1:27.5

ref page 19:
http://www.coliped.com/docs/issuu/Eu...ion%202012.pdf

(I assumed everyone who happens to be here, citizen or not,
and all kinds of bicycles. No idea if population figures for
Germany include aliens legal or otherwise, I'm not claiming
any deep research or statistical rigor.)

The E495 average price is a large number I think. Wow.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #170  
Old August 16th 13, 03:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 4,018
Default "Choosing Lights for Your Bicycle: Ten No-Compromise Requirements" article

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 18:36:24 -0700 (PDT), N8N
wrote:

I'm a big fan of massive overkill, but not when it comes at the expense of other road users.


Did someone say overkill? Anything worth doing is also worth
overdoing:
http://tesladownunder.com/WorldsBrightestBike.htm
Only 1,500 watt power cosumption. Probably won't work with a hub
dynamo.

575W HID bike light
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxFiLtXUlho (2:30)
For the ultimate hot spot.

Hmmm... remember my idea of using a DIN rail for a lighting (and
accessory) mount? Here's someone that did it using tubing instead of
a DIN rail:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf3pCHxiWwU

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 




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