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#11
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Bugger of a ride - Xmess spirit? (LONG)
TimC wrote: On 2005-12-20, Bleve (aka Bruce) was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea: Humbug wrote: . Currently we are NOT, and I repeat NOT, taught to drive - we are taught to pass the test. Two totally different things. Making the test harder doesn't really solve anything except keep the trully stupid or lazy off the road. The problem is attitude. Motorcycle licences *are* hard to get, require multiple days of training etc, and there's plenty of dangeous idiots on motorcycles. Why is that? The hard-to-get-license thing? Presumably to keep motorcyclists from injuring themselves, because if it was to keep them from injuring others, surely the tests would be for car drivers instead of motorcyclists? Why is it that we always care more for the welfare of the driver, and not the people he kills? It matters that we (society, the state ... whatever) have a presumption of innocence. Further, ANY collision means an automatic suspension of licence until it's proven that it was not even a little bit your fault. If it was even a little bit your fault you get to do the whole test after a minimum of 6 months to brush up your skills. Not workable, fair or just. Putting someone in a car shouldn't take away the presumsion of innocence. What's the difference between guns and cars? When someone messes up with a gun, they lose their ability to join (responsible) gun clubs, Missing word : "prove". and hence basically their license. Isn't that infringing on their rights? OK, so they can live without a gun. And yet the average person needs a car about as much as they need a gun. Shouldn't they lose their car license if they mess up? If it makes a difference, and if we're sure they did mess up, then yes. But not if either of the two criteria aren't met. |
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#12
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Bugger of a ride - Xmess spirit? (LONG)
In aus.bicycle on Tue, 20 Dec 2005 11:35:00 +1100
TimC wrote: On 2005-12-20, Bleve (aka Bruce) was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea: trully stupid or lazy off the road. The problem is attitude. Motorcycle licences *are* hard to get, require multiple days of training etc, and there's plenty of dangeous idiots on motorcycles. Why is that? The hard-to-get-license thing? Presumably to keep motorcyclists from injuring themselves, because if it was to keep them from injuring others, surely the tests would be for car drivers instead of motorcyclists? Because motorcycles are harder to control. The problem with cars is that people don't want to be in them. A car journey is an unavoidable waste of time that you have to undergo to get from where you are to where you want to be. It's not fun, it's not engaging, it is basically boring and unpleasant. It doesn't need much skill for 99% of the journey. When things go bad it does need skill, but people don't gain that skill because they don't need it. And if they did gain it, they'd lose it from lack of use. Compare that to two wheelers. The majority of motorcycle and bicycle users are on their two wheels because they choose to be. They enjoy it, they think the skills are worth getting, they pay a lot of attention to what's going on. And when they don't... well that's noticeable isn't it! I don't think testing will help much. People will be in cars because they have to be, you can test their traffic smarts as much as you like but they won't improve because there's no reason for them to improve. While the car is a necessity, then people will treat it as an unpleasant chore to be got through with the least effort, while trying to make the time spent doing it more pleasant. Any road safety strategy that doesn't take account of that is doomed to fail. Zebee |
#13
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Bugger of a ride - Xmess spirit? (LONG)
Plodder Wrote: Had a sod of a ride yesterday. Day off, so I thought I'd ride to join my partner for lunch about 15km from Gosnells to Cannington. Frank Drop DACKS to reply I was off the bike yesterday and in the car after work to do some errands in preparation for a 2 week camping trip to Esperance. Drove down Albany Highway from the City to Cannington and back. 1. Driving through intersection on ALbany Highway and lights change to amber just as I cross the stop line. Idiot woman in shiny Honda four wheel drive turns across the intersection in front of me. Much braking and I manage to miss her. 2. In Bunnings car park, on the wide entrance road. Woman in small car driving on the wrong side looking down at something on the passenger seat. After much blowing of my horn she looks up and gets back on the correct side of the road. 3. Waiting at a stop sign for a break in traffic to allow me to get back out onto Albany Highway. Young woman in a soft top Jeep is right up the back of my car, revving and when I look back, she is pounding the steering wheel. I'm not a slow driver and the car I was in (an Audi) is not a slow car. But I'm going to wait for a decent gap despite her performance. When I take off, she comes with me, tail-gates me then swerves around me and speeds off up the road. I kept driving at the speed limit and pulled up next to her at the next set of traffic lights. 4. I am driving in the left hand lane up Albany Highway. Idiot bloke in Commodore turns left in front of me from right hand lane and disappears down side road. FAAAARK. Maybe Christmas/the warm weather/too much Christmas parting has got to these people or maybe they are just FAAAARKING DANGEROUS all the time. SteveA -- SteveA |
#14
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Bugger of a ride - Xmess spirit? (LONG)
On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 06:30:58 +0800, Plodder wrote:
Had a sod of a ride yesterday. Day off, so I thought I'd ride to join my partner for lunch about 15km from Gosnells to Cannington. big snip Ah, Gosnells, you get some real yobs around there. I have the misfortune to live there, in one of the nicer bits mind, but you still wake up to fresh 20 metre long burn outs marking the road. And then there's the police helicopter that flys up the river behind us looking for fleeing crims several times a week. I've got that kind of abuse in that area more often than I can remember, but I've always borne in mind that whilst many drivers would, like the ones you encountered, cower in their car or ignore you when you respond to their actions, there are plenty who would happily jump out and beat you to a pulp (particularly if there's a group of them). Graeme |
#15
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Bugger of a ride - Xmess spirit? (LONG)
Plodder Wrote: Had a sod of a ride yesterday. snipparge wot cfsmtb said. question. Ho many of these incidents did you report? I'm gonig to make a leap of assumption here and guess you didnt. why not? in (almost) every case you had opportunity to record rego to get legislation/pollies/council/individual drivers and their circle of influence you need to report it, get them charged (if appropriate) and (sadly) most importantly longterm it becomes a statisitic. Every traffic strategy, council decision, govt legislation is based (sometimes solely) on these. No report. No stat. So, be prepared to record details, etc next time and stay safe young plodder -- flyingdutch |
#16
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Bugger of a ride - Xmess spirit? (LONG)
Graeme Dods Wrote: On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 06:30:58 +0800, Plodder wrote: Had a sod of a ride yesterday. Day off, so I thought I'd ride to join my partner for lunch about 15km from Gosnells to Cannington. big snip Ah, Gosnells, you get some real yobs around there. I have the misfortune to live there, in one of the nicer bits mind, but you still wake up to fresh 20 metre long burn outs marking the road. And then there's the police helicopter that flys up the river behind us looking for fleeing crims several times a week. I've got that kind of abuse in that area more often than I can remember, but I've always borne in mind that whilst many drivers would, like the ones you encountered, cower in their car or ignore you when you respond to their actions, there are plenty who would happily jump out and beat you to a pulp (particularly if there's a group of them). Graeme I think the problem here is presuming that cars will do right by you. Just treat them all like arseholes and trust them like you would trust your daughters first date. -- byron27 6'5", curly hair, bit like krusty the clown i spose |
#17
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Bugger of a ride - Xmess spirit? (LONG)
Bleve Wrote: Making the test harder doesn't really solve anything except keep the trully stupid or lazy off the road. not sure he said 'make test harder'. that's just more of same Bleve Wrote:[color=blue] The problem is attitude. Motorcycle licences *are* hard to get, require multiple days of training etc, and there's plenty of dangeous idiots on motorcycles. Yes, but 'generally' the skills base and awareness of a biker is far superior to your average driver. Perhaps the best solution would be to introduce compulsory redesign of all road going vehicles so that driver is sitting on the front of the car, like a hood ornament. no enclosing coccoon. Just some good ol' 'direct feedback' in their driving lives. -- flyingdutch |
#18
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Bugger of a ride - Xmess spirit? (LONG)
SteveA wrote:
snip 3. Waiting at a stop sign for a break in traffic to allow me to get back out onto Albany Highway. Young woman in a soft top Jeep is right up the back of my car, revving and when I look back, she is pounding the steering wheel. I'm not a slow driver and the car I was in (an Audi) is not a slow car. But I'm going to wait for a decent gap despite her performance. When I take off, she comes with me, tail-gates me then swerves around me and speeds off up the road. I kept driving at the speed limit and pulled up next to her at the next set of traffic lights. snip Did you smile and wave at this one? I love smiling and waving in that situation Tam |
#19
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[completely OT] Bugger of a ride - Xmess spirit? (LONG)
On 20/12/05 at 11:02:25 Bleve somehow managed to type:
Getting (got) completely OT now... snip Making the test harder doesn't really solve anything except keep the trully stupid or lazy off the road. The problem is attitude. Motorcycle licences are hard to get, require multiple days of training etc, and there's plenty of dangeous idiots on motorcycles. It's NOT about making the "test" harder - it's about ensuring a much higher degree of competance. Motorcycle licences are NOT hard to get - sure, it's (not that much) harder than a car licence but it isn't hard. The current testing regime ensures that basically incompetant motorists are allowed to drive. Only AFTER you've passed the 'test' do you really start learning to drive. snip And this would make no real difference, I suspect. It would - the motoring population would be a LOT more competant and therefore much less likely to screw up. The current licence "testing" regime is a joke - how many drivers can do a REAL emergency stop, mid bend on a wet road AND keep control of the car. Very, very few I'd suggest. Why ? Because they weren't taught those skills. Why wasn't such a fundamental skill taught ? Because you don't need to demonstrate that to pass the licence "test". Example. Your motorcycle "episode" the other week on a wet freeway. Your competance saved your life and the INcompetance of a motorist nearly killed you. A less competant rider would've died and a more competant motorist would never have had you in that situation. snip Not workable, fair or just. Putting someone in a car shouldn't take away the presumsion of innocence. It's only "Not "workable" because of the current 'right to drive' attitude. Replace that with a 'privilege to drive' attitude and a whole slew of problems get solved. It's "fair" - currently anyone who MAY be guilty of any crime where the penalty could be imprisonment MUST show good reason for bail. We have no problem accepting that so what's the problem ? It's "just" - if you stuff up and cause a collision you're probably incompetant and before you can get back behind the wheel you must prove competance. The problem, IMO, is that when we put people into cars, they turn into arseholes. It's a bit like alcohol, get someone drunk, and you see what they're really like, put them in a car and the same sort of thing happens. No. The problem is that generally the issues that may arise while you're driving are NOT understood. Neither are the consequences because you're surrounded by a nice protective metal box with all sorts of secondary safety stuff built in. Not understanding or not worrying about what's going around you leads to stuff-ups and most people will get aggressively defensive when their performance is questioned because they screwed up. Only very few people are able to say "sorry - I stuffed up. It won't happen again." and learn from the mistake. Most, not all but the vast majority of cyclists are much more basically competant than motorists. Any cyclist knows that if they fall off or get hit it's going to result in pain and probably blood and broken bits. Lock your front wheel in the wet and you're almost instantly on the road on your face. Do the same thing in a car and you're generally quite safe - the car may get a bit, or even a LOT, dinged when you spear off the road but you are generally OK. There's no real incentive to not lock front wheels in a car. Why do modern cars have traction control and ABS ? Basic lack of car control skills. -- Humbug BE A LOOF! (There has been a recent population explosion of lerts.) |
#20
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Bugger of a ride - Xmess spirit? (LONG)
Bleve Wrote: Humbug wrote: . Currently we are NOT, and I repeat NOT, taught to drive - we are taught to pass the test. Two totally different things. Making the test harder doesn't really solve anything except keep the trully stupid or lazy off the road. The problem is attitude. Motorcycle licences *are* hard to get, require multiple days of training etc, and there's plenty of dangeous idiots on motorcycles. My experience in Germany suggests otherwise. From this page: http://www.german-way.com/driving.html `` *This is understandable when you realize that a German driver’s license costs about $1500-2000, after a minimum of 25-45 hours of professional instruction plus 12 hours of theory, and such a license is good for life.* Cars marked “*Fahrschule*” (driving school) mean a student driver may be at the wheel. However, you don't have too much to worry about; in typical thorough German fashion, -Fahrschule- cars are equipped with dual controls so that the instructor can take over any time the student gets into serious trouble. The practical, on-the-road training time has to include night driving, autobahn experience, in-town driving, and a multitude of other driving situations. The test for a German driver's license includes questions about the mechanical aspects of an automobile, in addition to the usual examination on the rules of the road. But once he or she has passed the test, a German driver never ever has to be tested again to keep his or her license, not even for vision!'' German drivers are far more competent and courteous than Australian drivers; heck they're better than British drivers :-P Sure the test is just part of the equation, personal liability is a big deal in Germany. People visiting Germany are amazed when they see people out the front of their houses gritting the pavements in winter; there's good reason they do that. If someone has an accident on the bit of pavement they're responsible for, they open themselves up to a personal liability suit. Same thing with vehicle collisions etc. I had liability insurance for a million Deutschmarks just to be safe. Currently the TAC picks up the tab, a faceless non-adversarial process with individual responsibility pretty much abdicated. I don't think that's working. -- EuanB |
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