Road Discs

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 4:31:10 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 4:29:21 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/24/2017 8:57 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 2:16:25 PM UTC-7, wrote:

As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.

A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.

The 105 hydraulic brakes on my Norco modulate really well, and I'm not worried about locking them up -- and they really quieted down after I installed some expensive metal pads and removed the OE resin-organic. I bought the expensive finned pads. I could have folded $20 bills and used those. What a rip-off. I'm going to the cheap-o non-finned pads the next time.

Anyway, today's ride involved about 50 miles of tempo riding with three other guys over mostly rolling terrain. We were on rough road, and it got squirrely in one place, but I never felt like I was going to jam on the brakes and cause a crash. I could easily ride discs in a race if I were still racing.

Are you worried about having brakes on different bikes that require much
different lever forces? I would be.

Panic stops are extremely rare, but if I bought a bike with disc brakes
and a true emergency situation arose while riding it, I suspect I'd lock
wheels and go down.
--
- Frank Krygowski


Please try some and report back.

Lou

I have tried some, which is why I'm concerned! Granted, I haven't done long
rides on any. My tests were on bikes belonging to friends, one bike I was
fixing for a bike tourist we were hosting, bikes I tested briefly while
helping a good friend shop for a new bike, and a mountain bike owned by an
acquaintance who let me ride it for maybe half an hour in our local forest
preserve.

The latter was the most upscale bike of the lot. When he traded bikes with me,
he cautioned me "Don't forget, you never need more than one finger on the
brakes." He was right, of course. And I'd be unlikely to forget on that
bike because it had undersized brake levers, plus it was way different than any
of my bikes. But on a road bike with normal sized levers, I'd worry about
forgetting.

I once saw a woman go over the bars because she wasn't familiar with the
reduced lever force of Shimano dual pivots, back when those were new technology.

It seems to me that stopping a bike hard should require a bit of a hard squeeze
on the levers. At least, until bicycles come with something vaguely akin to the
anti-lock brakes on cars. (Anti-pitchover brakes?)

- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 9:50:28 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/25/2017 8:20 AM, wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 1:27:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 11:16:25 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 2:11:36 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport
riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike
that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be
available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in
dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix
and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask
because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last
nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry
weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would
be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm
not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue
because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but
to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of
the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

-- Jay Beattie.









You will be able to get rim brakes and bits for them, I’d though though my
lifetime, I’m currently 42, my dad has managed to get some new tyres for
the NewHudson that they have for rolling along after grandchildren!

As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.


The real reason is weight, the rest is marketing BS.

A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.

Tom, really that is no problem for the majority of people. You can have an opinion about disk brakes, but one thing that almost everyone agree upon
is the positive feedback you get from disk brakes.

Lou, there is NO weight difference between the single and double pivot.


Uh, Tom, Super Record DP are 149 grams, the rear single
pivot caliper is 123 grams.

So, important to those cyclists who get outraged when the barista gives them
four quarters change instead of a dollar bill?

- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 10:06:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:

Cable discs can be better or worse than rim brakes in terms of stopping power and modulation. If you don't watch your pad adjustment and wear, you can find yourself with really bad braking -- like "oh, crap, man!" That happened to me on my way home from work, flying down a super-steep hill. I stopped (after a while) and adjusted the pads, and everything was AOK. Hydraulics adjust automatically. You can blow through pads on both and have to watch pad wear. My front hydraulics on the Roubaix were stopping me with NO pads -- I was stopping with the pad carriers. Ooops. Not so great on the rotors. Other downsides are complexity (bleeding hydraulic), dragging, pad break-in, adjustment for different wheels if any change in disc location. Wheel changes are a little more complicated, but then again, if you had fat tires and were trying to get them through calipers, that would slow you down more. If you have through axles, that can mean rack and work-stand incompatibility. There is a weight and aerodynamic penalty, which is meaningless for most people.

Regarding the fat tire issue: I think the logical comparison should be discs vs.
cantilever brakes (either classic ones or V-brakes), not discs vs. close clearance caliper brakes. ISTM most of the advantages of discs apply to
situations that _should_ lead to wider tires, ones that wouldn't fit through
most caliper brakes.

- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 7:55:26 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 4:31:10 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 4:29:21 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/24/2017 8:57 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 2:16:25 PM UTC-7, wrote:

As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.

A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.

The 105 hydraulic brakes on my Norco modulate really well, and I'm not worried about locking them up -- and they really quieted down after I installed some expensive metal pads and removed the OE resin-organic. I bought the expensive finned pads. I could have folded $20 bills and used those. What a rip-off. I'm going to the cheap-o non-finned pads the next time.

Anyway, today's ride involved about 50 miles of tempo riding with three other guys over mostly rolling terrain. We were on rough road, and it got squirrely in one place, but I never felt like I was going to jam on the brakes and cause a crash. I could easily ride discs in a race if I were still racing.

Are you worried about having brakes on different bikes that require much
different lever forces? I would be.

Panic stops are extremely rare, but if I bought a bike with disc brakes
and a true emergency situation arose while riding it, I suspect I'd lock
wheels and go down.
--
- Frank Krygowski


Please try some and report back.

Lou

I have tried some, which is why I'm concerned! Granted, I haven't done long
rides on any. My tests were on bikes belonging to friends, one bike I was
fixing for a bike tourist we were hosting, bikes I tested briefly while
helping a good friend shop for a new bike, and a mountain bike owned by an
acquaintance who let me ride it for maybe half an hour in our local forest
preserve.

The latter was the most upscale bike of the lot. When he traded bikes with me,
he cautioned me "Don't forget, you never need more than one finger on the
brakes." He was right, of course. And I'd be unlikely to forget on that
bike because it had undersized brake levers, plus it was way different than any
of my bikes. But on a road bike with normal sized levers, I'd worry about
forgetting.

I once saw a woman go over the bars because she wasn't familiar with the
reduced lever force of Shimano dual pivots, back when those were new technology.

It seems to me that stopping a bike hard should require a bit of a hard squeeze
on the levers. At least, until bicycles come with something vaguely akin to the
anti-lock brakes on cars. (Anti-pitchover brakes?)

I don't think front discs are a problem for most normal people coming from a dual pivot or other efficient brake. Rear hydraulic discs do require some adjustment because they are far more powerful than any cable operated brake, being that there aren't the usual losses from cable or housing. I was skidding my rear on the Roubaix, but that hasn't been an issue on the Norco for some reason. Maybe I'm acclimated -- or maybe the Roubaix had too much system pressure. The rear cable disc is no better than a rim brake in dry weather. A rear dual pivot is actually stronger, but I hope to remedy that problem with a new rear brake. The first generation Avid BB7s (mine are 13 years old) had crappy return springs that can't manage all the cable drag, and the caliper will rub after braking if the pads are set close to the disc.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 11:35:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 7:55:26 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
I have tried some, which is why I'm concerned! Granted, I haven't done long
rides on any. My tests were on bikes belonging to friends, one bike I was
fixing for a bike tourist we were hosting, bikes I tested briefly while
helping a good friend shop for a new bike, and a mountain bike owned by an
acquaintance who let me ride it for maybe half an hour in our local forest
preserve.

The latter was the most upscale bike of the lot. When he traded bikes with me,
he cautioned me "Don't forget, you never need more than one finger on the
brakes." He was right, of course. And I'd be unlikely to forget on that
bike because it had undersized brake levers, plus it was way different than any
of my bikes. But on a road bike with normal sized levers, I'd worry about
forgetting.

I once saw a woman go over the bars because she wasn't familiar with the
reduced lever force of Shimano dual pivots, back when those were new technology.

It seems to me that stopping a bike hard should require a bit of a hard squeeze
on the levers. At least, until bicycles come with something vaguely akin to the
anti-lock brakes on cars. (Anti-pitchover brakes?)

I don't think front discs are a problem for most normal people coming from a dual pivot or other efficient brake. Rear hydraulic discs do require some adjustment because they are far more powerful than any cable operated brake, being that there aren't the usual losses from cable or housing. I was skidding my rear on the Roubaix, but that hasn't been an issue on the Norco for some reason. Maybe I'm acclimated -- or maybe the Roubaix had too much system pressure. The rear cable disc is no better than a rim brake in dry weather. A rear dual pivot is actually stronger, but I hope to remedy that problem with a new rear brake. The first generation Avid BB7s (mine are 13 years old) had crappy return springs that can't manage all the cable drag, and the caliper will rub after braking if the pads are set close to the disc.

-- Jay Beattie.

I can easily apply my front Dura Ace AX brake to a force where the rear wheel lifts a lot and I have to release the front brake lever to avoid going over the bar.

On my MTB with the roller cam rear brake under the chainstays, I can easily lock up the rear wheel in ant weather = dry or wet.

Cheers

On 9/25/2017 9:59 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 9:50:28 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/25/2017 8:20 AM, wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 1:27:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 11:16:25 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 2:11:36 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport
riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike
that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be
available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in
dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix
and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask
because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last
nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry
weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would
be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm
not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue
because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but
to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of
the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

-- Jay Beattie.









You will be able to get rim brakes and bits for them, I’d though though my
lifetime, I’m currently 42, my dad has managed to get some new tyres for
the NewHudson that they have for rolling along after grandchildren!

As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.


The real reason is weight, the rest is marketing BS.

A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.

Tom, really that is no problem for the majority of people. You can have an opinion about disk brakes, but one thing that almost everyone agree upon
is the positive feedback you get from disk brakes.

Lou, there is NO weight difference between the single and double pivot.


Uh, Tom, Super Record DP are 149 grams, the rear single
pivot caliper is 123 grams.

So, important to those cyclists who get outraged when the barista gives them
four quarters change instead of a dollar bill?


Aside from your opinion about which criteria other people
should find significant to their own riding, bike
manufacturers are relentless in demanding lighter weight
component sets from parts makers every season. There's more
than just caprice and vanity here.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 8:48:58 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 11:35:45 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 7:55:26 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped
I have tried some, which is why I'm concerned! Granted, I haven't done long
rides on any. My tests were on bikes belonging to friends, one bike I was
fixing for a bike tourist we were hosting, bikes I tested briefly while
helping a good friend shop for a new bike, and a mountain bike owned by an
acquaintance who let me ride it for maybe half an hour in our local forest
preserve.

The latter was the most upscale bike of the lot. When he traded bikes with me,
he cautioned me "Don't forget, you never need more than one finger on the
brakes." He was right, of course. And I'd be unlikely to forget on that
bike because it had undersized brake levers, plus it was way different than any
of my bikes. But on a road bike with normal sized levers, I'd worry about
forgetting.

I once saw a woman go over the bars because she wasn't familiar with the
reduced lever force of Shimano dual pivots, back when those were new technology.

It seems to me that stopping a bike hard should require a bit of a hard squeeze
on the levers. At least, until bicycles come with something vaguely akin to the
anti-lock brakes on cars. (Anti-pitchover brakes?)

I don't think front discs are a problem for most normal people coming from a dual pivot or other efficient brake. Rear hydraulic discs do require some adjustment because they are far more powerful than any cable operated brake, being that there aren't the usual losses from cable or housing. I was skidding my rear on the Roubaix, but that hasn't been an issue on the Norco for some reason. Maybe I'm acclimated -- or maybe the Roubaix had too much system pressure. The rear cable disc is no better than a rim brake in dry weather. A rear dual pivot is actually stronger, but I hope to remedy that problem with a new rear brake. The first generation Avid BB7s (mine are 13 years old) had crappy return springs that can't manage all the cable drag, and the caliper will rub after braking if the pads are set close to the disc.

-- Jay Beattie.

I can easily apply my front Dura Ace AX brake to a force where the rear wheel lifts a lot and I have to release the front brake lever to avoid going over the bar.

On my MTB with the roller cam rear brake under the chainstays, I can easily lock up the rear wheel in ant weather = dry or wet.

You can lock-up a rear wheel with basically any decent, well-adjusted brake.. It's just a matter of effort at the lever. You need less effort to lock-up your rear wheel with a hydraulic disc, and the brake modulates differently -- braking force is delivered more quickly, particularly in wet weather. Whether this is worth the price of admission is up to you.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 6:48:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 3:20:58 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 1:27:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 11:16:25 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 2:11:36 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night.. I've
done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport
riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike
that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be
available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in
dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix
and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask
because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last
nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry
weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would
be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm
not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue
because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but
to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of
the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

-- Jay Beattie.









You will be able to get rim brakes and bits for them, I’d though though my
lifetime, I’m currently 42, my dad has managed to get some new tyres for
the NewHudson that they have for rolling along after grandchildren!

As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up..


The real reason is weight, the rest is marketing BS.

A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.

Tom, really that is no problem for the majority of people. You can have an opinion about disk brakes, but one thing that almost everyone agree upon
is the positive feedback you get from disk brakes.

Lou, there is NO weight difference between the single and double pivot.

I'm sure there is:
Record-D Skeleton 2007 279 g 282 g +1,08% front/rear: 152/130 g

Lou

Lou - Are you tell me that 3 grams are important? That's about the weight of a toothpick. The variation in manufacturing weight is more than that.

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 6:50:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/25/2017 8:20 AM, wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 1:27:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 11:16:25 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 2:11:36 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport
riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike
that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be
available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in
dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix
and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask
because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last
nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry
weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would
be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm
not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue
because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but
to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of
the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

-- Jay Beattie.









You will be able to get rim brakes and bits for them, I’d though though my
lifetime, I’m currently 42, my dad has managed to get some new tyres for
the NewHudson that they have for rolling along after grandchildren!

As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up.


The real reason is weight, the rest is marketing BS.

A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.

Tom, really that is no problem for the majority of people. You can have an opinion about disk brakes, but one thing that almost everyone agree upon
is the positive feedback you get from disk brakes.

Lou, there is NO weight difference between the single and double pivot.


Uh, Tom, Super Record DP are 149 grams, the rear single
pivot caliper is 123 grams.

Andrew - All of the places I've looked report double pivot rear as being 20 grams heavier for Record brakes. That's the weight of two quarters. Is this what bicycling has sunken to?

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 7:59:30 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 9:50:28 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/25/2017 8:20 AM, wrote:
On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 1:27:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 11:16:25 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Tuesday, September 19, 2017 at 2:11:36 PM UTC-7, Roger Merriman wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport
riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike
that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be
available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in
dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix
and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask
because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last
nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry
weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would
be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm
not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue
because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but
to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of
the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

-- Jay Beattie.









You will be able to get rim brakes and bits for them, I’d though though my
lifetime, I’m currently 42, my dad has managed to get some new tyres for
the NewHudson that they have for rolling along after grandchildren!

As a point of interest - the reason for disks is supposed to be stronger braking. And yet Campagnolo has just gone back from dual pivot back brake to single pivot because too many racers were locking the rear wheel up..


The real reason is weight, the rest is marketing BS.

A hydraulic disk has probably five times the stopping power.

Tom, really that is no problem for the majority of people. You can have an opinion about disk brakes, but one thing that almost everyone agree upon
is the positive feedback you get from disk brakes.

Lou, there is NO weight difference between the single and double pivot.