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Bans on drug enhancement in sport may go the way of earlier prohibitions...



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 3rd 07, 01:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
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Posts: 50
Default Bans on drug enhancement in sport may go the way of earlier prohibitions...

On Aug 2, 5:50 pm, chester wrote:
Sounds like a shill for the pharmceutical association. I think to
compare systematic exclusion of women and certain ethnic groups from
competition to restricting performance enhancement is a really, really
egregious rationalization.
Some of these issues were brought up in the days of Prozac Nation,
and I'm not an absolutist about this. There is a difference between
treating pathoses and performance enhancement of the normal, but the
line isn't always sharp. Usually though, to paraphrase Potter Stewart,
it's tough to define what is unfair, but I know it when I see it.


Steve


"Sounds like a shill for the pharmceutical association."

I don't think so. Look, the point of the article is this. Eventually,
the average joe viewer will be more enhanced and drugged up than the
professional athlete. How reasonable is that? The fact is I can go to my
doctor any time and request a testosterone patch top supplement my
system. It doesn't take much to get it. But the pro cannot ever do that.

Also, I guess I am curious what the obsession is with 100% natural and
"clean", when really these guys (and girls) are so much different than
the average person, naturally and/or due to excessive training, diet and
supplements. I admit I have mixed feelings about drugs no drugs, but
it isn't cut and dry to me.


So lets try a fantasy medically enhanced professional regiment. What
would be allowed? Steroids? No, but just a little testosterone for
recovery? Perhaps.

Growth hormone? I don't think so.

EPO? None, or in limited amounts? Altitude tents? Probably. Not a
drug.

Blood transfusions? I don't think so.

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  #12  
Old August 3rd 07, 01:23 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Steven Bornfeld
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Posts: 339
Default Bans on drug enhancement in sport may go the way of earlier prohibitions...

chester wrote:


Sounds like a shill for the pharmceutical association. I think to
compare systematic exclusion of women and certain ethnic groups from
competition to restricting performance enhancement is a really, really
egregious rationalization.
Some of these issues were brought up in the days of Prozac Nation,
and I'm not an absolutist about this. There is a difference between
treating pathoses and performance enhancement of the normal, but the
line isn't always sharp. Usually though, to paraphrase Potter
Stewart, it's tough to define what is unfair, but I know it when I see
it.

Steve

"Sounds like a shill for the pharmceutical association."

I don't think so. Look, the point of the article is this. Eventually,
the average joe viewer will be more enhanced and drugged up than the
professional athlete. How reasonable is that? The fact is I can go to my
doctor any time and request a testosterone patch top supplement my
system.


And your doc gives it to you--just like that?
I disagree BTW. Maybe the first few Dutch and Belgian cyclists that
died from uncontrolled use of EPO didn't know how dangerous it could be
when abused. But you hope (at the least) that the average Joe viewer
will have a doctor who will know the risks, know the benefits, and do
the right thing.
BTW, there will ALWAYS be risks.


Steve

It doesn't take much to get it. But the pro cannot ever do that.

Also, I guess I am curious what the obsession is with 100% natural and
"clean", when really these guys (and girls) are so much different than
the average person, naturally and/or due to excessive training, diet and
supplements. I admit I have mixed feelings about drugs no drugs, but it
isn't cut and dry to me.


  #13  
Old August 3rd 07, 02:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
[email protected]
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Posts: 50
Default Bans on drug enhancement in sport may go the way of earlier prohibitions...

On Aug 2, 8:23 pm, Steven Bornfeld
wrote:
chester wrote:

Sounds like a shill for the pharmceutical association. I think to
compare systematic exclusion of women and certain ethnic groups from
competition to restricting performance enhancement is a really, really
egregious rationalization.
Some of these issues were brought up in the days of Prozac Nation,
and I'm not an absolutist about this. There is a difference between
treating pathoses and performance enhancement of the normal, but the
line isn't always sharp. Usually though, to paraphrase Potter
Stewart, it's tough to define what is unfair, but I know it when I see
it.


Steve


"Sounds like a shill for the pharmceutical association."


I don't think so. Look, the point of the article is this. Eventually,
the average joe viewer will be more enhanced and drugged up than the
professional athlete. How reasonable is that? The fact is I can go to my
doctor any time and request a testosterone patch top supplement my
system.


And your doc gives it to you--just like that?
I disagree BTW. Maybe the first few Dutch and Belgian cyclists that
died from uncontrolled use of EPO didn't know how dangerous it could be
when abused. But you hope (at the least) that the average Joe viewer
will have a doctor who will know the risks, know the benefits, and do
the right thing.
BTW, there will ALWAYS be risks.

Steve

It doesn't take much to get it. But the pro cannot ever do that.



Also, I guess I am curious what the obsession is with 100% natural and
"clean", when really these guys (and girls) are so much different than
the average person, naturally and/or due to excessive training, diet and
supplements. I admit I have mixed feelings about drugs no drugs, but it
isn't cut and dry to me.


Steve- it isn't clear to me what you disagree with. Banning EPO?

  #14  
Old August 3rd 07, 03:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Jack Hollis
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Posts: 397
Default Bans on drug enhancement in sport may go the way of earlier prohibitions...

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 21:44:51 -0700, DirtRoadie
wrote:

So, if this were to happen, at what age or stage of development do
juniors/amateurs get introduced to the juice that they will need to
work their way into the elite ranks?


That's up to their Pediatrician.
  #16  
Old August 3rd 07, 03:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Steven Bornfeld
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Posts: 339
Default Bans on drug enhancement in sport may go the way of earlier prohibitions...

wrote:
On Aug 2, 8:23 pm, Steven Bornfeld
wrote:
chester wrote:

Sounds like a shill for the pharmceutical association. I think to
compare systematic exclusion of women and certain ethnic groups from
competition to restricting performance enhancement is a really, really
egregious rationalization.
Some of these issues were brought up in the days of Prozac Nation,
and I'm not an absolutist about this. There is a difference between
treating pathoses and performance enhancement of the normal, but the
line isn't always sharp. Usually though, to paraphrase Potter
Stewart, it's tough to define what is unfair, but I know it when I see
it.
Steve
"Sounds like a shill for the pharmceutical association."
I don't think so. Look, the point of the article is this. Eventually,
the average joe viewer will be more enhanced and drugged up than the
professional athlete. How reasonable is that? The fact is I can go to my
doctor any time and request a testosterone patch top supplement my
system.

And your doc gives it to you--just like that?
I disagree BTW. Maybe the first few Dutch and Belgian cyclists that
died from uncontrolled use of EPO didn't know how dangerous it could be
when abused. But you hope (at the least) that the average Joe viewer
will have a doctor who will know the risks, know the benefits, and do
the right thing.
BTW, there will ALWAYS be risks.

Steve

It doesn't take much to get it. But the pro cannot ever do that.



Also, I guess I am curious what the obsession is with 100% natural and
"clean", when really these guys (and girls) are so much different than
the average person, naturally and/or due to excessive training, diet and
supplements. I admit I have mixed feelings about drugs no drugs, but it
isn't cut and dry to me.


Steve- it isn't clear to me what you disagree with. Banning EPO?



I disagree as a matter of principle that pros may as well be allowed to
do whatever they wish to their bodies because everyone is doing it. In
the first place everyone isn't doing it; secondly (and aside from the
ethical issues) there are dangers to the pro looking for an "edge", and
that given the ethical cloud under which doping resides, so-called
"medical supervision" cannot be trusted. There will always be an
ethical conflict between the doctor hired by a team to help the team win
and the athlete.

Steve
  #17  
Old August 3rd 07, 03:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Tom Kunich
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Posts: 6,456
Default Bans on drug enhancement in sport may go the way of earlier prohibitions...

"Steven Bornfeld" wrote in message
link.net...

I disagree as a matter of principle that pros may as well be allowed to do
whatever they wish to their bodies because everyone is doing it. In the
first place everyone isn't doing it; secondly (and aside from the ethical
issues) there are dangers to the pro looking for an "edge", and that given
the ethical cloud under which doping resides, so-called "medical
supervision" cannot be trusted. There will always be an ethical conflict
between the doctor hired by a team to help the team win and the athlete.


That's pretty much my beliefs as well.

And we should be banning effect and not attempts. EPO that is
indistinguishable from human EPO will be available soon. So the tests won't
pick that up. But fixing a maximum hematocrit will help.

We can test for additional oxygenation components added to the blood so
that's not a problem.

hGH doesn't show ANY performance enhancing properties but you can test for
it. People who have used it tell me that they feel really great when using
that stuff so I suppose that's why the belief that it works.

Steroids? Again, setting limits on testosterone levels and ratios is
intelligent. Disqualifying people who have low testosterone levels is
insane.

What is natural? If someone naturally doesn't produce a hormone due to a
physical mutation do you disqualify them for using manufactured hormones to
bring their levels to normal?

Here's the bottom lines - as long as there are rewards for enhanced
performance people will try any method to win even if it means destroying
their own health. In order to prevent this you can't play hide and go seek
with their drug use - it's just too expensive to continue the growing
amounts of testing. Instead limit the amount of gain they can get from being
illegal with a combination of limiting any possible gains to what you could
achieve from normal training and losing income from disqualifications for
using drugs.



  #18  
Old August 3rd 07, 01:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
[email protected]
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Posts: 50
Default Bans on drug enhancement in sport may go the way of earlier prohibitions...

On Aug 2, 10:28 pm, Jack Hollis wrote:
On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 17:20:51 -0700, wrote:
So lets try a fantasy medically enhanced professional regiment. What
would be allowed? Steroids? No, but just a little testosterone for
recovery? Perhaps.


Growth hormone? I don't think so.


EPO? None, or in limited amounts? Altitude tents? Probably. Not a
drug.


Blood transfusions? I don't think so.


You're never going to clean up cycling with that attitude.


You're never going to clean up cycling. Read the editorial I posted
to start this topic.

 




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