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Eco-Terrrorist Vandeman, More of the same $h*t
"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message ... In other words, illegal trail building is okay, but SHODDY illegal trailbuilding gives mountain bikers a bad name! Mike To: From: "Thom Iverson" Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 07:52:53 -0800 Subject: Grey Trails This is a point I DEFINITELY agree with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! People slapping down SHODDY gray trail and then walking away without ANY followup maintenance DOES get me torqued off. THAT gives a bad image for mtn biking. IMHO Thom I From: "mwestra2" Subject: Grey Trails Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 15:31:55 -0000 This is a great topic and I'd love to hear all sides. Here's my 2 Pesos on Building Grey.... **AND** MAINTAIN WHAT YOU BUILD!! By yourself or with your crew or via work parties. If you don't have the time to keep it maintained, you shouldn't build it in the first place. The worst: finding a dangerous rotting dilapidated eyesore of a ladder bridge out in the woods! The Code of the Streets: Whatever you do, don't "rat" on your buddy, even if he is doing something illegal! Mike From: "Ethan" Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:13:25 -0000 Subject: Gray Trails and trail advocacy Hmm... if I had to break down into three groups, and then guess as to the percentages of, American trails that were built by various movements/entities, I'd have to guess the following: 5% -- the CCC 20% -- other government agencies, or at least groups with official landowner/government approval 75% -- gray trails, built by unofficial, average Joes and Janes .... and much of that by hunters, trappers, and other explorers, plus of course the ancient/native inhabitants of the continent. (I'd be very interested to seem to stats on this, if anyone could dig them up somewhere.) Regardless tho, I'd definitley agree with what someone said earlier in this thread about how "gray trails belong in gray areas" -- lands that only have marginal (or temporary) recreational access, period. Anyway, on to recent events in the Cascade foothills... So Dave, when you called the county folks to report the new trail you'd found, I really hope you didn't mention that you'd *met* the trail builders, and that they were mountain bikers. Cause that would of course be incongruous with the overall goal that we all have to not portray mountain bikers in a bad light. And to all those who seek to "verbally educate" naughty rogue trail builders or other people who are doing things you don't approve of, always remember the age-old maxim, "It's not what you say, it's how- you-say-it." Since I wasn't there, Dave, I'm not sure what your tone/approach was in educating these "evil-doers" (to borrow a term that our esteemed president likes to use). However, a few years ago, I was at a wintertime work party on the Preston Trail and, at one point in the day, a couple of guys came riding down the trail, past us. One of the crew leaders said to them, in an angry, belligerent tone: "HEY YOU POACHERS, THIS TRAIL IS CLOSED!!!" My jaw dropped. I couldn't believe what I'd just observed. How does this person, who also happens to be a board member and one of the club's top, uh, "advocates", expect to attract new members to the club and new trail gnomes to the trailwork movement... when [he/she] talks like that? Unbelievable. EE From: "Brian" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:08:26 -0800 Subject: Gray Trails and trail advocacy Trails have always been developed for the same reason as long as man has been on earth... necessity. Lets face it, we need more trails, much much Much more. I say kudos to pirate trails and kudos to those bitch about them, maybe after another 10 years of BS our county and state land managers will finely see that there is a need for more access for cyclists, but dont hold your breath. We will always be the red headded ******* step children of the outdoor community... I say build them where they have a chance to last and away from wet areas, but build them. Make the complainers, Tom Murdochs and serria club members work to weed them out as they are descoverd. Maybe they will get tired after a while. Look at skate borders for example, they grind and destroy brickwork and store fronts. After years and years of complaining and relentless, non conforming skaters, we finely see skate parks poping up all over the place. This group got exactly what they wanted by doing what they wanted, where they wanted, when they wanted. I'm not saying its cool to destory the environment we wish to enjoy, I think most of us are environmentalists... Thats the whole point! We want to see more birds, more trees, more creeks, more views, We just want more. The building of "gray trails, pirate trails and illegal trails" just goes to show that the slow turning wheels of politics, talking and environmental impact studies is not working for some. I know its not working for me, I dont build pirate or gray trails but I understand them and I'll ride them in a heartbeat. My $0.02 From: "art bbtc" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:03:06 -0800 Subject: Op-Ed on gray trails vs official trails Just a few comments- Thanks Maartin for making all good points. Novelty Hill was a battle we lost; the trails built there were despite our efforts. The "paths" there would be a lot different had we prevailed. St. Ed is a good example of what this thread is about- Rampant illicit trail building forcing greater scrutiny of the land manager and resulting in removal of even the small log hops. Tiger Mt.- The dinosaur teeth "trail work" is the unintended result of well intentioned people putting rock in the trail outside of directed workparties. It takes a lot of work to properly embed rock in the tread so it is sustainable and fun to ride. Colonnade will be a cool place to ride and it will highlight our success, but more than that it will open the door to other opportunities so that the future highlight of our success can be a true Backcountry trail. Definition of a grey trail- is it grey or gray? -Art === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
#3
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Eco-Terrrorist Vandeman, More of the same $h*t
On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:00:31 GMT, "JP" wrote:
"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message .. . In other words, illegal trail building is okay, but SHODDY illegal trailbuilding gives mountain bikers a bad name! Mike To: From: "Thom Iverson" Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 07:52:53 -0800 Subject: Grey Trails This is a point I DEFINITELY agree with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! People slapping down SHODDY gray trail and then walking away without ANY followup maintenance DOES get me torqued off. THAT gives a bad image for mtn biking. IMHO Thom I From: "mwestra2" Subject: Grey Trails Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 15:31:55 -0000 This is a great topic and I'd love to hear all sides. Here's my 2 Pesos on Building Grey.... **AND** MAINTAIN WHAT YOU BUILD!! By yourself or with your crew or via work parties. If you don't have the time to keep it maintained, you shouldn't build it in the first place. The worst: finding a dangerous rotting dilapidated eyesore of a ladder bridge out in the woods! The Code of the Streets: Whatever you do, don't "rat" on your buddy, even if he is doing something illegal! Mike From: "Ethan" Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 16:13:25 -0000 Subject: Gray Trails and trail advocacy Hmm... if I had to break down into three groups, and then guess as to the percentages of, American trails that were built by various movements/entities, I'd have to guess the following: 5% -- the CCC 20% -- other government agencies, or at least groups with official landowner/government approval 75% -- gray trails, built by unofficial, average Joes and Janes .... and much of that by hunters, trappers, and other explorers, plus of course the ancient/native inhabitants of the continent. (I'd be very interested to seem to stats on this, if anyone could dig them up somewhere.) Regardless tho, I'd definitley agree with what someone said earlier in this thread about how "gray trails belong in gray areas" -- lands that only have marginal (or temporary) recreational access, period. Anyway, on to recent events in the Cascade foothills... So Dave, when you called the county folks to report the new trail you'd found, I really hope you didn't mention that you'd *met* the trail builders, and that they were mountain bikers. Cause that would of course be incongruous with the overall goal that we all have to not portray mountain bikers in a bad light. And to all those who seek to "verbally educate" naughty rogue trail builders or other people who are doing things you don't approve of, always remember the age-old maxim, "It's not what you say, it's how- you-say-it." Since I wasn't there, Dave, I'm not sure what your tone/approach was in educating these "evil-doers" (to borrow a term that our esteemed president likes to use). However, a few years ago, I was at a wintertime work party on the Preston Trail and, at one point in the day, a couple of guys came riding down the trail, past us. One of the crew leaders said to them, in an angry, belligerent tone: "HEY YOU POACHERS, THIS TRAIL IS CLOSED!!!" My jaw dropped. I couldn't believe what I'd just observed. How does this person, who also happens to be a board member and one of the club's top, uh, "advocates", expect to attract new members to the club and new trail gnomes to the trailwork movement... when [he/she] talks like that? Unbelievable. EE From: "Brian" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 09:08:26 -0800 Subject: Gray Trails and trail advocacy Trails have always been developed for the same reason as long as man has been on earth... necessity. Lets face it, we need more trails, much much Much more. I say kudos to pirate trails and kudos to those bitch about them, maybe after another 10 years of BS our county and state land managers will finely see that there is a need for more access for cyclists, but dont hold your breath. We will always be the red headded ******* step children of the outdoor community... I say build them where they have a chance to last and away from wet areas, but build them. Make the complainers, Tom Murdochs and serria club members work to weed them out as they are descoverd. Maybe they will get tired after a while. Look at skate borders for example, they grind and destroy brickwork and store fronts. After years and years of complaining and relentless, non conforming skaters, we finely see skate parks poping up all over the place. This group got exactly what they wanted by doing what they wanted, where they wanted, when they wanted. I'm not saying its cool to destory the environment we wish to enjoy, I think most of us are environmentalists... Thats the whole point! We want to see more birds, more trees, more creeks, more views, We just want more. The building of "gray trails, pirate trails and illegal trails" just goes to show that the slow turning wheels of politics, talking and environmental impact studies is not working for some. I know its not working for me, I dont build pirate or gray trails but I understand them and I'll ride them in a heartbeat. My $0.02 From: "art bbtc" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:03:06 -0800 Subject: Op-Ed on gray trails vs official trails Just a few comments- Thanks Maartin for making all good points. Novelty Hill was a battle we lost; the trails built there were despite our efforts. The "paths" there would be a lot different had we prevailed. St. Ed is a good example of what this thread is about- Rampant illicit trail building forcing greater scrutiny of the land manager and resulting in removal of even the small log hops. Tiger Mt.- The dinosaur teeth "trail work" is the unintended result of well intentioned people putting rock in the trail outside of directed workparties. It takes a lot of work to properly embed rock in the tread so it is sustainable and fun to ride. Colonnade will be a cool place to ride and it will highlight our success, but more than that it will open the door to other opportunities so that the future highlight of our success can be a true Backcountry trail. Definition of a grey trail- is it grey or gray? -Art === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande Except that this was all written by mountain bikers! === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
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Mikey shows Mountain Bikers working to halt illegal trails
Thanks, Mikey, for highlighting the efforts of off-road cyclists to police
the activity of rogue trails and illegal riding. The post you made shows great cooperation and communication among responsible cyclists to work within the system of guidelines. It is these efforts that have been beneficial in dispelling the misconceptions of non-cyclists. |
#5
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Mikey shows Mountain Bikers working to halt illegal trails
On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 13:52:34 -0500, "S Curtiss"
wrote: Thanks, Mikey, for highlighting the efforts of off-road cyclists to police the activity of rogue trails and illegal riding. The post you made shows great cooperation and communication among responsible cyclists to work within the system of guidelines. It is these efforts that have been beneficial in dispelling the misconceptions of non-cyclists. I guess you didn't read it, because it said that mountain bikers support illegal trailbuilding. === I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
#6
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Mikey shows Mountain Bikers working to halt illegal trails
I read a discussion on curbing the illegal trails. I also read a post
encouraging trails at any opportunity followed by a post on proper discussion with land managers for trail building. Hardly all negative as you attempt to portray. Actually, it is mostly positive. |
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