Does the world have room for another full suspension design?

I expect people who have been reading the silly questions I've been
asking over the past few months will have guessed I've been working on
a new full suspension design. I'm not going to discuss details of the
design at this stage because I haven't decided whether to apply for
patents (yes, it _is_ different enough to be patentable). My question
is, is there room in the market for yet another full suspension
design?

I've ditched the more left-field ideas I was playing with in favour of
something which is practicably and economically manufacturable; the
welding should actually be somewhat less complex than on many current
full suspension designs (fewer frame components); so it should not be
any more expensive to build than other limited production full
suspension frames.

The design is optimised for cross-country, especially very technical
cross country; it's not a downhill design. Although it would be
possible to deliver it frame only, the front and rear suspension
systems are designed together to work together and the bike would not
work nearly as well with a conventional fork. The basic geometry is
similar to a family of designs which has been very successful,
although with a tweak to address a particular failing of that family.

It looks radically different. There's no question of you mistaking
this design from any angle for any current design. So from the looks
point of view it is marketable. It will also work substantially better
in some conditions than current designs, so from the tech point of
view it should be marketable. But the components needed to deliver the
concept are not cheap so it's probably going to need to retail in the
US$2500-US$3500 range.

At this stage I have a number of options, from least to most
risky/rewarding:

* Treat the idea as yet another air-dream and forget about it

* Publish the details on the Internet in the hope someone picks it up
and runs with it

* Apply for patents and try to flog the concept to an existing
manufacturer

* Get together with some engineering friends locally and start
manufacturing

Any advice?

Oh, and, before you ask, no I don't have a prototype yet.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; When your hammer is C++, everything begins to look like a thumb.

"Simon Brooke" wrote in message
. uk...
I expect people who have been reading the silly questions I've been
asking over the past few months will have guessed I've been working on
a new full suspension design. I'm not going to discuss details of the
design at this stage because I haven't decided whether to apply for
patents (yes, it _is_ different enough to be patentable). My question
is, is there room in the market for yet another full suspension
design?

Yes, provided it is damn good. With the quality of current air and coil
shocks, the efectiveness of SPV, and the successful incorporation of VPP by
Santa Cruz and Intense, your design better kick lots of ass.

I imagine that, for a company to sink development dough into a new design,
it better be the holy grail of suspension tech. But I warn you, most people
feel that has already been discovered in VPP.

I've ditched the more left-field ideas I was playing with in favour of
something which is practicably and economically manufacturable; the
welding should actually be somewhat less complex than on many current
full suspension designs (fewer frame components); so it should not be
any more expensive to build than other limited production full
suspension frames.

Which is smart; less pieces = more friendly to mtb-ers.

It looks radically different. There's no question of you mistaking
this design from any angle for any current design. So from the looks
point of view it is marketable. It will also work substantially better
in some conditions than current designs, so from the tech point of
view it should be marketable. But the components needed to deliver the
concept are not cheap so it's probably going to need to retail in the
US$2500-US$3500 range.

Is that price frame only? Regardless, 3,000 buys you a built Intense
Spider, a LOT of bike to compete with. And those radical looks you might be
envisioning as an appeal to wacky mountain bikers are just as likely to
scare them away...sadly, most bikers with thousands to spend are spending on
image more than they are the ride itself. If it looks like they're riding a
spaceship, they'll stick with established designs.


At this stage I have a number of options, from least to most
risky/rewarding:


Hey, I say show a CAD drawing to some guys in the industry you can trust not
to steal any ideas...patent everything first, of course. Hell, I'd like to
see a CAD drawing - and I'm a poor college student, so I'll not be
manufacturing frames any time soon (ever).

Good luck.

Chris

Simon Brooke wrote in message .uk...

At this stage I have a number of options, from least to most
risky/rewarding:

* Treat the idea as yet another air-dream and forget about it

Your choice.

* Publish the details on the Internet in the hope someone picks it up
and runs with it

Perhaps better than choice #1, because you don't have to do anything
beyond this, but you still have some degree of intellectual ownership
for a year or two (I don't remember which).

* Apply for patents and try to flog the concept to an existing
manufacturer

You probably won't get enough in royalties from an unproven design
with zero market share to make it worth your trouble. You might get
lucky, though, and find someone willing to take it on as some sort of
joint venture to manufacture the frame for you with rights to also use
the design, or something like that.

* Get together with some engineering friends locally and start
manufacturing

This is the only choice I see that has a good chance of making much
money, if the design proves to be substantially superior in practice
and sufficiently original that no one can easily work around the
patentable features, and the patentable features are tied to the
performance features. Also, you will have to make sure that it doesn't
get outlawed by sanctioning bodies that would be lobbied hard by
established manufacturers. If all of these factors are not pretty sure
things I would fall back to #3.

JP

"Simon Brooke" wrote in message
. uk...
I expect people who have been reading the silly questions I've been
asking over the past few months will have guessed I've been working on
a new full suspension design. I'm not going to discuss details of the
design at this stage because I haven't decided whether to apply for
patents (yes, it _is_ different enough to be patentable). My question
is, is there room in the market for yet another full suspension
design?


I'd guess full suspension designs haven't been around so long that all the
best ideas have been flushed out yet. Go get a prototype built. You might
be able to protect your design with the builder through a non-disclosure
type of legal agreement. See if the reality meets the theory. Benchmark
your design against the best of what's out there today. If you really have
something, going down the patent route then might make sense. A possible
business model to follow is something like Maverick. They build a fairly
small number of ML-7's, but have licensed the design to Klein (Trek) for the
masses and to Seven Cycles for the elite custom market. I'd guess they make
more money through the Klein license than from their own frames.

The design is optimised for cross-country, especially very technical
cross country; it's not a downhill design. Although it would be
possible to deliver it frame only, the front and rear suspension
systems are designed together to work together and the bike would not
work nearly as well with a conventional fork. The basic geometry is
similar to a family of designs which has been very successful,
although with a tweak to address a particular failing of that family.

Is your design for XC racing or for the enthusiast or both? Take a pulse of
the market to see if your design fits. Talk to sales folks in bike shops
about what market segments they are trying to satisfy. If your not racing,
is there a current trend away from XC and towards "all mountain" designs
that feature a bit more travel than the typical XC racer? I've picked up a
hint of that around here (New England). You want to target a product for
where the market is going, not where it's been.

* Get together with some engineering friends locally and start
manufacturing

Any advice?

Get together with others who have complementary skills. If you are an
engineer, and have worked out the detailed design, I doubt you need a lot
more engineering talent at this point to start a company. You need others
who might understand the venture capital space/finance, manufacturing, and
marketing/business development, ...

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 11:05:03 GMT, Simon Brooke
may have said:

My question
is, is there room in the market for yet another full suspension
design?

There is ample room and plenty of demand for a good one. If it's
simply "yet another" and not significantly better in some useful
respect (functionality, travel, durability, expense, etc) then the
answer becomes "yes, but you've got some stiff competition."

The design is optimised for cross-country, especially very technical
cross country; it's not a downhill design.

At least you're targeting a market that's large enough to have some
potential sales.

Although it would be
possible to deliver it frame only, the front and rear suspension
systems are designed together to work together and the bike would not
work nearly as well with a conventional fork. The basic geometry is
similar to a family of designs which has been very successful,
although with a tweak to address a particular failing of that family.

So it's a design patent, not a basic.

It looks radically different. There's no question of you mistaking
this design from any angle for any current design. So from the looks
point of view it is marketable. It will also work substantially better
in some conditions than current designs, so from the tech point of
view it should be marketable. But the components needed to deliver the
concept are not cheap so it's probably going to need to retail in the
US$2500-US$3500 range.

That price would put you into the "limited production" range, it's
true.

At this stage I have a number of options, from least to most
risky/rewarding:

* Treat the idea as yet another air-dream and forget about it

* Publish the details on the Internet in the hope someone picks it up
and runs with it

* Apply for patents and try to flog the concept to an existing
manufacturer

* Get together with some engineering friends locally and start
manufacturing

Any advice?

I'd go for the the patent if the funds are available, unless you're
more interested in seeing the bike built and marketed than in making
money from it.

Possible avenue:

Search for and team with an existing frame maker whose designs are
stodgy but whose techniques are adequate. File the preliminary
paperwork for the patent (and believe me, when you get to the point of
building the prototype. all sorts of things will be discovered that
you weren't considering) and then build the prototype. With the first
unit in hand and adequately tested, proceed with the patent and
publicity.

When searching for a frame maker, be prepared for a lot of them to do
the "Oh gods not another Genius With a Revolutionary New Frame Design"
reaction. Many have heard and seen too many such pitches in the past.
Others will cheerfully tell you that they'll be thrilled to build
whatever you want, at your expense.

If your primary interest is in getting the design built rather than in
making money, then publish it after filing the initial patent
paperwork.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Yes, I have a killfile. If I don't respond to something,
it's also possible that I'm busy.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

"Chris" writes:

"Simon Brooke" wrote in message
. uk...

Which is smart; less pieces = more friendly to mtb-ers.

It looks radically different. There's no question of you mistaking
this design from any angle for any current design. So from the looks
point of view it is marketable. It will also work substantially better
in some conditions than current designs, so from the tech point of
view it should be marketable. But the components needed to deliver the
concept are not cheap so it's probably going to need to retail in the
US$2500-US$3500 range.

Is that price frame only?

No, frame only it should be relatively cheap. Under US$1000
retail. Frame and forks, more than US$1500. The forks are probably
more complex than the frame.

Hey, I say show a CAD drawing to some guys in the industry you can trust not
to steal any ideas...patent everything first, of course. Hell, I'd like to
see a CAD drawing - and I'm a poor college student, so I'll not be
manufacturing frames any time soon (ever).

I'll be doing that.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Friends don't send friends HTML formatted emails.

"rosco" writes:

"Simon Brooke" wrote in message
. uk...
Is your design for XC racing or for the enthusiast or both? Take a pulse of
the market to see if your design fits. Talk to sales folks in bike shops
about what market segments they are trying to satisfy. If your not racing,
is there a current trend away from XC and towards "all mountain" designs
that feature a bit more travel than the typical XC racer? I've picked up a
hint of that around here (New England). You want to target a product for
where the market is going, not where it's been.

The geometry is capable of long travel (up to about 200mm at both
ends) but my assumption is that you will typically want to tune it to
deliver a lot less than that.


* Get together with some engineering friends locally and start
manufacturing

Any advice?

Get together with others who have complementary skills. If you are an
engineer, and have worked out the detailed design, I doubt you need a lot
more engineering talent at this point to start a company. You need others
who might understand the venture capital space/finance, manufacturing, and
marketing/business development, ...



--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Friends don't send friends HTML formatted emails.

"Simon Brooke" wrote in message
. uk...
"rosco" writes:

"Simon Brooke" wrote in message
. uk...
Is your design for XC racing or for the enthusiast or both? Take a
pulse of
the market to see if your design fits. Talk to sales folks in bike
shops
about what market segments they are trying to satisfy. If your not
racing,
is there a current trend away from XC and towards "all mountain" designs
that feature a bit more travel than the typical XC racer? I've picked
up a
hint of that around here (New England). You want to target a product
for
where the market is going, not where it's been.

The geometry is capable of long travel (up to about 200mm at both
ends) but my assumption is that you will typically want to tune it to
deliver a lot less than that.

Sounds like a freeride-style bike.

About your custom fork, you probably don't want to do that. If you sell the
frame and fork together, then most riders will probably swap out the fork
with a long-travel one they prefer, such as the Dirt Jumper or Z1 series of
Marzocchi forks. You may want to concentrate more on the frame, and let the
rest follow.

If your prototype seems to hold up well, try it out at a freeride hot spot
like British Columbia, and ask riders what they think... maybe even offer a
short test ride?

Good luck to you!

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Simon Brooke wrote in message .uk...
I expect people who have been reading the silly questions I've been
asking over the past few months will have guessed I've been working on
a new full suspension design. I'm not going to discuss details of the
design at this stage because I haven't decided whether to apply for
patents (yes, it _is_ different enough to be patentable). My question
is, is there room in the market for yet another full suspension
design?

I've ditched the more left-field ideas I was playing with in favour of
something which is practicably and economically manufacturable; the
welding should actually be somewhat less complex than on many current
full suspension designs (fewer frame components); so it should not be
any more expensive to build than other limited production full
suspension frames.

The design is optimised for cross-country, especially very technical
cross country; it's not a downhill design. Although it would be
possible to deliver it frame only, the front and rear suspension
systems are designed together to work together and the bike would not
work nearly as well with a conventional fork. The basic geometry is
similar to a family of designs which has been very successful,
although with a tweak to address a particular failing of that family.

It looks radically different. There's no question of you mistaking
this design from any angle for any current design. So from the looks
point of view it is marketable. It will also work substantially better
in some conditions than current designs, so from the tech point of
view it should be marketable. But the components needed to deliver the
concept are not cheap so it's probably going to need to retail in the
US$2500-US$3500 range.

At this stage I have a number of options, from least to most
risky/rewarding:

* Treat the idea as yet another air-dream and forget about it

* Publish the details on the Internet in the hope someone picks it up
and runs with it

* Apply for patents and try to flog the concept to an existing
manufacturer

* Get together with some engineering friends locally and start
manufacturing

Any advice?

Oh, and, before you ask, no I don't have a prototype yet.

Dear Orville,

What else have we got to do when the
breeze makes flying too dangerous?

Fondly,

Wilbur

Werehatrack writes:

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 11:05:03 GMT, Simon Brooke
may have said:
I'd go for the the patent if the funds are available, unless you're
more interested in seeing the bike built and marketed than in making
money from it.

Well, frankly I'm most interested in seeing it built and having one to
play with. But that I can probably do myself (and will need to anyway
as a prototype if I'm going to do anything with it myself). But I'm
also a late-middle-aged software engineer wondering how many years
I've got left in this game and thinking about a career shift, so the
idea of setting up a new bike company is somewhat appealing to.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Friends don't send friends HTML formatted emails.