Before & after bike ghettos

On 10/26/2010 6:57 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Oct 26, 9:06 am, Duane wrote:

The problem with all of this is that most people here don't know about
any of it. We're starting to have more signage and that seems to help.

Education is good. And education can work via signs, I think. I'd
also lobby for other methods of education.

Does _anyone_ know of motorist (and cyclist) education being done by
TV or radio public service announcements? Or by roadside billboards?
Or by other means? That's what I'd like to see.

We're doing pretty well here with the signs. Not so much with the media.

We had some radio spots here but they were pretty lame. They took the
form of a personals add like "quiet, mild mannered cyclist seeks patient
understanding motorist to share the road..." Some BS like that. Sort
of sounded like cyclists were pleading to be noticed or something. They
got pulled after a week or so.

I'd prefer something that said, "look stupid, if you don't know it -
cyclists have a ride to ride on the road and if you f*ck with them,
you're ass is going to jail" Maybe, it would sound better in frenchg

Seriously, I imagine that something somewhere in the middle would be good.

At the least, I think that the driving test should have a couple of
questions about cyclist and their rights on the road.

In article ,
Duane Hébert wrote:

At the least, I think that the driving test should have a couple of
questions about cyclist and their rights on the road.

And that's probably the only kind of "education" that is likely to be
noticed. It's also interesting that (around here, at least) high school
students are offered driver's ed classes, and shop classes where they
can work on cars, but I don't recall there ever being a class where
bikes got any attention. Perhaps the better solution is to teach
younger kids how to ride better and how to do bike repairs, and by the
time they grow into automobile drivers they'll *already* be educated.

--
iPhone apps that matter: http://appstore.subsume.com/
My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, localhost, googlegroups.com, astraweb.com,
and probably your server, too.

On Oct 27, 3:41*pm, Doc O'Leary
wrote:
In article ,
*Duane Hébert wrote:

At the least, I think that the driving test should have a couple of
questions about cyclist and their rights on the road.

There's an effort to get that in Ohio. Time will tell if there's any
success. So far, it's not been an easy project.

And that's probably the only kind of "education" that is likely to be
noticed.

I think there's room for much more. Seems to me that education (or
publicity, which is not much different) has raised awareness and
changed behavior in many ways.

One avenue that's gotten little attention is something sort of like
"product placement" as used in movies and TV shows. Recall, it used
to be normal for actors to be shown smoking. That ended, as part of
the many anti-smoking efforts. And those efforts did decrease smoking
significantly.

There have been successful efforts to reduce the acceptability of
racism, to start all sorts of fashion trends, to increase interest in
energy-efficient cars and light bulbs, to promote bike helmets as
absolutely necessary, to get one's cholesterol checked, etc. etc.

I don't see why some of that marketing and publicity prowess couldn't
be used to promote cycling, and to get better cooperation on the
roads.

- Frank Krygowski

On 10/27/2010 10:57 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I don't see why some of that marketing and publicity prowess couldn't
be used to promote cycling, and to get better cooperation on the
roads.

Promotion is good but not enough. Promotion will work with people that
are open to cycling. It doesn't help with those that aren't.

For example, the Tour de L'ile de Montreal is an annual bike event here.
It has become very popular and attracts more and more cyclists every
year. Especially new cyclists and families. Very good promotion.

But the streets are closed off for this event and there are always
people that complain about the inconvenience. Unfortunately, these are
the ones that need to be educated about the rights of cyclists.

So I think that marketing and publicity are good to promote cycling and
we see a lot of that here in the form of staged events. Festivals and such.

But we need to also let the motorists that are against sharing roads
with cyclists that they don't have a choice and inform them of the rules.

On Oct 27, 9:57*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

At the least, I think that the driving test should have a couple of
questions about cyclist and their rights on the road.

There's an effort to get that in Ohio. *Time will tell if there's any
success. *So far, it's not been an easy project.

And that's probably the only kind of "education" that is likely to be
noticed.

I think there's room for much more. *Seems to me that education (or
publicity, which is not much different) has raised awareness and
changed behavior in many ways.

One avenue that's gotten little attention is something sort of like
"product placement" as used in movies and TV shows. *Recall, it used
to be normal for actors to be shown smoking. *That ended, as part of
the many anti-smoking efforts. *And those efforts did decrease smoking
significantly.

It was made significantly more difficult to portray smoking as cool
when your ad had to have that big 'ol Surgeon General's WARNING with
words like "cancer" plastered all over it. Smoking is certainly not
the rite of passage it once was; in fact, I was shocked to see how
many young people smoked when I went back to school in the mid-90's,
due to the tone and amount of anti-tobacco propaganda in the media.
Earlier generations weren't warned, the later ones were. "Damn, how
stupid do you have to be?"

There have been successful efforts to reduce the acceptability of
racism, to start all sorts of fashion trends, to increase interest in
energy-efficient cars and light bulbs, to promote bike helmets as
absolutely necessary, to get one's cholesterol checked, etc. etc.

I don't see why some of that marketing and publicity prowess couldn't
be used to promote cycling, and to get better cooperation on the
roads.

It's kinda funny, when I took my first driver's test in Illinois, back
in 1965, there was a section in the "Rules of the Road" handbook,
given out as test prep, that indeed did say that cyclists have the
same basic set of rules. Which would seem to make it more difficult
for a driver to think that cyclists don't have a right of way on the
streets-- I mean, as in, "Get real, you've read the rules in order to
pass the test".

That bike-specific area in the handbook could be expanded slightly, to
specifically mention sharing the road with cyclists, and to make sure
that one of the "revolving questions" in the written part of the
driver's test is always "T/F, Cyclists have a right to be on the road"
or something similar. Pretty simple stuff and I would think, quite
effective.
--D-y

On Oct 28, 9:13*am, Duane Hébert wrote:
On 10/27/2010 10:57 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I don't see why some of that marketing and publicity prowess couldn't
be used to promote cycling, and to get better cooperation on the
roads.

Promotion is good but not enough. *Promotion will work with people that
are open to cycling. *It doesn't help with those that aren't.

In my view, there may be a small proportion of North Americans that
would need only a little incentive or urging to begin some biking.
There's a large proportion of the population that will be intractably
opposed to cycling. Nothing will get them on bikes. And there's
probably a large proportion that's somewhere in between. I don't
think anything will get a large portion of North Americans biking for
regular transportation.

Based on that, I think some people need to revise their daydreams.
Doubling the percentage of bike commuters sounds glorious, until one
realizes it's doubling from something like 0.8% to 1.6%, a change from
negligible to slightly less negligible. Neither is earth changing.

But that doesn't mean we couldn't try for some increase. And
increasing bike use isn't the only possible goal. How about
increasing courtesy and responsibility by motorists? That could be a
bigger goal. So could educating cyclists about some fundamentals,
like using lights at night, or cycling on the proper side of the road.

What strikes me is that almost none of the above has ever been tried.
Promoting a one-day, road-closed affair is something else entirely.
There's room to try different types of promotion and education.

- Frank Krygowski

On 10/28/2010 12:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

But that doesn't mean we couldn't try for some increase. And
increasing bike use isn't the only possible goal. How about
increasing courtesy and responsibility by motorists? That could be a
bigger goal. So could educating cyclists about some fundamentals,
like using lights at night, or cycling on the proper side of the road.

That's pretty much what I'm saying.

What strikes me is that almost none of the above has ever been tried.
Promoting a one-day, road-closed affair is something else entirely.
There's room to try different types of promotion and education.

Yes, like I said, the one day thing only attracts that people that are
open to it to begin with and in some ways further alienates the ones
that are already opposed to it. There are other events on the cycling
calendar here but not usually for novices.

There must be other types of promotion that can work I mean people can
be convinced to eat at Mc Do's so pretty much anything is possible.

In article
,
Frank Krygowski wrote:

I think there's room for much more. Seems to me that education (or
publicity, which is not much different) has raised awareness and
changed behavior in many ways.

I haven't seen it. In general, all the efforts to "educate" seem to be
misguided. It's not that people don't really know, it's that they
selfishly don't care, or feel that being in a vehicle entitles them to
be an outright asshole to anyone who is in/on a smaller vehicle.

One avenue that's gotten little attention is something sort of like
"product placement" as used in movies and TV shows. Recall, it used
to be normal for actors to be shown smoking. That ended, as part of
the many anti-smoking efforts. And those efforts did decrease smoking
significantly.

If you think about it, though, that wasn't education. People knew that
smoke inhalation wasn't a healthy behavior. It was more a
re-establishment of a new normal baseline. What efforts are being done
to that end regarding biking, or healthy activity in general? Precious
little, as far as I've seen. The baseline is still "everyone is
expected to drive everywhere, and then moan if they can't park for free
within 50 feet of their destination".

I don't see why some of that marketing and publicity prowess couldn't
be used to promote cycling, and to get better cooperation on the
roads.

Because there's no money in telling people they shouldn't be such lazy
****s. You could *try* to be less blunt about it, but the reality is
that people are being sold, easily, on the ability to sit in an climate
controlled car at the drive-thru window to get a super-sized dinner so
that they can get home in time to sit on the couch and watch TV for 4
hours.

I don't think there's anything you can do directly to un-sell them on
that. You're probably better off approaching it from a side angle and
demonstrating how much the infrastructure costs, including health care,
could be reduced going forward by shifting away from a car-centric
society. With a tanking economy, the timing is good to demonstrate
actual improvements, rather than just doing more empty PR campaigns.

--
iPhone apps that matter: http://appstore.subsume.com/
My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, localhost, googlegroups.com, astraweb.com,
and probably your server, too.

On Oct 28, 4:55*pm, Doc O'Leary
wrote:
*Frank Krygowski wrote:

I think there's room for much more. *Seems to me that education (or
publicity, which is not much different) has raised awareness and
changed behavior in many ways.

I haven't seen it.

Really? Understand, I'm not talking specifically about bike-related
or transportation-related behavior. As I noted, smoking is definitely
reduced from what it once was. That's a result of education and
publicity.

One avenue that's gotten little attention is something sort of like
"product placement" as used in movies and TV shows. *Recall, it used
to be normal for actors to be shown smoking. *That ended, as part of
the many anti-smoking efforts. *And those efforts did decrease smoking
significantly.

If you think about it, though, that wasn't education. *People knew that
smoke inhalation wasn't a healthy behavior. *It was more a
re-establishment of a new normal baseline.

However you describe it, people were much more likely to get addicted
to cigarettes than they are now. I think it was a combination of
education, enforcement, publicity, and otherwise influencing public
attitudes and fashions. In a sense, some of the techniques used were
the same ones that got cigarettes to be so popular in the first place
- making them fashionable.

*What efforts are being done
to that end regarding biking, or healthy activity in general? *Precious
little, as far as I've seen.

I agree. In fact, that's one of my major points.

I don't see why some of that marketing and publicity prowess couldn't
be used to promote cycling, and to get better cooperation on the
roads.

Because there's no money in telling people they shouldn't be such lazy
****s. *

Well, the money situation is about the same as for telling people that
they shouldn't inhale addictive carcinogens. Tobacco profits were
hurt. Savings in health care dollars are probably still mostly in the
future. But still, educating people to not smoke was seen as
valuable.

And BTW, I think if Madison Avenue and Hollywood can convince people
they _should_ inhale addictive carcinogens, then Madison Avenue and
Hollywood can convince people of anything. I think it's time to put
that resource to some good use.


*You're probably better off approaching it from a side angle and
demonstrating how much the infrastructure costs, including health care,
could be reduced going forward by shifting away from a car-centric
society. *With a tanking economy, the timing is good to demonstrate
actual improvements, rather than just doing more empty PR campaigns.

Fine, whatever detail strategy works. My points are that so far,
there's been almost no effort in this regard; and that some effort
would likely be valuable.

- Frank Krygowski

In article
,
Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Oct 28, 4:55*pm, Doc O'Leary
wrote:
*Frank Krygowski wrote:

I think there's room for much more. *Seems to me that education (or
publicity, which is not much different) has raised awareness and
changed behavior in many ways.

I haven't seen it.

Really? Understand, I'm not talking specifically about bike-related
or transportation-related behavior. As I noted, smoking is definitely
reduced from what it once was. That's a result of education and
publicity.

I don't think so. Like I said, I don't recall there ever being a time
when smoke inhalation was considered a good thing. Everyone knew to get
out of burning buildings and into the fresh air; no new education or
publicity required.

What *was* required was resetting the baseline acceptance for a drug
addiction (nicotine) that was related to burning tobacco. The same
desired change can be seen these days, but in reverse, with pot. The
act of smoking as a delivery mechanism is still dead stupid, but THC as
a drug doesn't seem to be any more harmful than nicotine.

So, no, I don't think BS "education" campaigns do anything. I think
most people already *know* a lot more than they *do*. What would work
best is giving them incentives to do those things they already know.
They can be positive incentives, like rebates and tax breaks, or they
can be negative incentives, like fines and revoking licenses. Without
consequences, though, nobody is going to care to change their behavior.

I mean, we got Cash for Clunkers, but where was the giveaway program
that encouraged bike use? I can get car milage reimbursed, but where is
my credit for riding a bike? There are countless examples of showing
favor to automobiles that no "education" program is going to erase.

However you describe it, people were much more likely to get addicted
to cigarettes than they are now. I think it was a combination of
education, enforcement, publicity, and otherwise influencing public
attitudes and fashions. In a sense, some of the techniques used were
the same ones that got cigarettes to be so popular in the first place
- making them fashionable.

Fashion != education. Smoking went "out of fashion" because the reality
of the drug addiction eventually caught up with it, as it so often does.
The realities of a car-centric society are starting to catch up with us,
too. The main problem going forward is less about education and more
about the lack of incentive for doing the smart thing. The baseline is
still rewarding people for being stupid.

Because there's no money in telling people they shouldn't be such lazy
****s. *

Well, the money situation is about the same as for telling people that
they shouldn't inhale addictive carcinogens. Tobacco profits were
hurt. Savings in health care dollars are probably still mostly in the
future. But still, educating people to not smoke was seen as
valuable.

I don't see the situation as parity at all. Smoking is something that
exposed everyone to the ill effects, and I think the benefit of a ban to
non-smokers was immediately evident. That's just not the case with
things like drinking or obesity. Someone being lazy doesn't rub off on
me, and my biking everywhere certainly doesn't seem to be rubbing off on
people content to sit in their cars.

And BTW, I think if Madison Avenue and Hollywood can convince people
they _should_ inhale addictive carcinogens, then Madison Avenue and
Hollywood can convince people of anything. I think it's time to put
that resource to some good use.

Drugs convinced people to inhale smoke. Addiction is not a hard sell,
so hold back on giving credit to the pushers just because they wear
suits. I'm sure biking would benefit with better marketing, but I still
maintain that the baseline still rewards people more for not biking, so
it remains something most people avoid doing.

--
iPhone apps that matter: http://appstore.subsume.com/
My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, localhost, googlegroups.com, astraweb.com,
and probably your server, too.