Damned Central Heating!

On 2019-03-27 10:25, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 7:14:41 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-24 15:28, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 08:23:11 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-23 16:20, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 16:06:42 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-23 15:56, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 09:34:21 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-20 11:09, sms wrote:

[...]


There's a big move now to all-electric since the
electricity can be generated without the use of
fossil fuels.


Electric? With PG&E as the supplier? I won't touch that
with a 10ft pole for anything where electric power
isn't absolutely needed.Yve cooling. No tax incentives
there either because politicians are generally not
smart enough to understand the benefits of that.

You bought a house in a gated community, and you own two
cars, and can't afford electricity?


Please pay closer attention to what was written and, even
more so, what was not written. Premature conclusions are
also not wise.

a. We do not live in a gated community. Never did.

Strange that as it has been said more than once that you do
live in a gated community and you have never before refuted
it?


I have. You should read more carefully.

Well perhaps I missed your reply to one or more of J's messages
mentioning your establishment.


Old rule: If you don't know, ask before making bold statements.



b. Our cars are both well over 20 years old and we drive
less than 1200mi/year with each of them.

I see, there are no additional costs for using a car if you
don't drive it? Like insurance, etc? Just don't drive them
and they are free?


Insurance is cheap and it is also necessary for cycling, which
is covered with the car insurance. The cost pales in comparison
to other items.


I see. You have insurance for your bicycle? What sort? collision
insurance to pay for all the cars you smash up with your
bicycle?


What would happen if you accidentally miss a stop sign and cause a
major pile up with injuries or death?

What would happen if you get hit by a driver who elects to vanish
from the scene and then you need years of skilled nursing care? And
no, health insurance only covers the initial medical part, not
longterm care.

As I wrote, my car insurance is for cars _and_ bicycles.

Yes, and here's an interesting twist -- no PIP or UIM coverage under
your own policy if you get hit by another bike.


Really? IIRC my insurance guy explained that to me as covering any kind
of crash.


... Around here, that
risk is probably as great or greater than getting hit by a car,
although the consequences are usually less.


The closest call in that respect was with a buck. No kidding. He didn't
even look back, just kept running.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2019-03-25 11:33, wrote:
On Saturday, March 23, 2019 at 4:09:26 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-20 09:42, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 1:28:01 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-19 11:17, wrote:
A couple of months ago when it was coldest my central
heating stopped igniting. My impression from the sounds it
was making was that the thermocouple was bad or the pilot
light that would be ignited was dirty or some such so that
the flame wasn't close enough to the thermocouple of inform
it that there was a real flame there and turn the full flame
on.

The repairman came out and said that the pilot and
thermocouple was OK and changed out the main gas valve. The
heater appeared to work for six weeks and then as the weather
got cold again started not lighting again.

The company sent another repairman out and he said that it
was the main control board and replaced that.

I am now $1,600 into "repairs" and sure enough - the heater
isn't lighting still.

It would appear to me at this time that there is nothing more
to replace but the pilot tube and the thermocouple. So I
wonder how to convince the repairman that there is something
wrong with one of those?


We had that happen a long time ago and the cause was the
electronic controller board. The central propane furnace would
go VROOOOP .. PHUTAH-PHUT ... RUMBLE ... VROOOOOOOOOP ... and
never stayed on anymore.

When the technician came out he exclaimed "Oh look, an old
Fenwal controller board!", saying he was amazed that it lasted
this long. He switched it out against one from another
manufacturer and all was well.

I asked him to leave the old board and when probing it I found
that the triac that controls the main burner valve had gone
partially bad so it wouldn't be able to send a full current
through the valve solenoid anymore. Could have kicked myself
because instead of paying a few hundred Dollars I could have
gotten one of those triac for a couple of Dollars and replaced
it. If these triac are on a separate driver board then check
that.

There is also a suction sensor, for example a flap in the
intake stream that operates a signaling switch. If that got
crudded up it might at times falsely signal a failing air draft
and that would cut the main valve.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/




when the technician came out again the board was showing errors
of "too many tries". He pulled the connector off and spread the
male connector so that it would make better connection to the
main gas valve and it appears to work perfectly now. Though when
the main gas valve was replaced 3 months ago it all worked fine
until recently.


The first technician could have diagnosed that easily by measuring
how many volts are actually arriving at the solenoid. This is the
first order of business for me when, for example, my wife says that
a certain zone in the yard doesn't get watered reliably.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

He got the correct readings because the problem wasn't the board but
the connection between the board and the gas solenoid not making
proper contact. Since both the board and the valve were new there
really wasn't any question about their working. It took him a little
while to isolate the connection. These connectors are the male and
female pin types. So it is virtually impossible to measure them when
connected.


However, it has to be done and not on the board side but at the
solenoid. Most such connectors are crimped these days. A thin sewing
needle usually gets in. If not I poke through the wire insulation with
the needles and later cover that with electrical tape.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 3/27/2019 6:44 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-27 10:25, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 7:14:41 AM UTC-7, Joerg
wrote:
On 2019-03-24 15:28, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 08:23:11 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-23 16:20, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 16:06:42 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-23 15:56, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 09:34:21 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-20 11:09, sms wrote:

[...]


There's a big move now to all-electric since the
electricity can be generated without the use of
fossil fuels.


Electric? With PG&E as the supplier? I won't touch
that
with a 10ft pole for anything where electric power
isn't absolutely needed.Yve cooling. No tax incentives
there either because politicians are generally not
smart enough to understand the benefits of that.

You bought a house in a gated community, and you own
two
cars, and can't afford electricity?


Please pay closer attention to what was written and,
even
more so, what was not written. Premature conclusions are
also not wise.

a. We do not live in a gated community. Never did.

Strange that as it has been said more than once that
you do
live in a gated community and you have never before
refuted
it?


I have. You should read more carefully.

Well perhaps I missed your reply to one or more of J's
messages
mentioning your establishment.


Old rule: If you don't know, ask before making bold
statements.



b. Our cars are both well over 20 years old and we drive
less than 1200mi/year with each of them.

I see, there are no additional costs for using a car
if you
don't drive it? Like insurance, etc? Just don't drive
them
and they are free?


Insurance is cheap and it is also necessary for
cycling, which
is covered with the car insurance. The cost pales in
comparison
to other items.


I see. You have insurance for your bicycle? What sort?
collision
insurance to pay for all the cars you smash up with your
bicycle?


What would happen if you accidentally miss a stop sign
and cause a
major pile up with injuries or death?

What would happen if you get hit by a driver who elects
to vanish
from the scene and then you need years of skilled nursing
care? And
no, health insurance only covers the initial medical
part, not
longterm care.

As I wrote, my car insurance is for cars _and_ bicycles.

Yes, and here's an interesting twist -- no PIP or UIM
coverage under
your own policy if you get hit by another bike.


Really? IIRC my insurance guy explained that to me as
covering any kind of crash.


... Around here, that
risk is probably as great or greater than getting hit by a
car,
although the consequences are usually less.


The closest call in that respect was with a buck. No
kidding. He didn't even look back, just kept running.



Really? IIRC my insurance guy explained that to me as
covering any kind of crash.

The great sage Tom Waits:
'The large print giveth and the small print taketh away'


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 4:44:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-27 10:25, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 7:14:41 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-24 15:28, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 08:23:11 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-23 16:20, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 16:06:42 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-23 15:56, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 09:34:21 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-20 11:09, sms wrote:

[...]


There's a big move now to all-electric since the
electricity can be generated without the use of
fossil fuels.


Electric? With PG&E as the supplier? I won't touch that
with a 10ft pole for anything where electric power
isn't absolutely needed.Yve cooling. No tax incentives
there either because politicians are generally not
smart enough to understand the benefits of that.

You bought a house in a gated community, and you own two
cars, and can't afford electricity?


Please pay closer attention to what was written and, even
more so, what was not written. Premature conclusions are
also not wise.

a. We do not live in a gated community. Never did.

Strange that as it has been said more than once that you do
live in a gated community and you have never before refuted
it?


I have. You should read more carefully.

Well perhaps I missed your reply to one or more of J's messages
mentioning your establishment.


Old rule: If you don't know, ask before making bold statements.



b. Our cars are both well over 20 years old and we drive
less than 1200mi/year with each of them.

I see, there are no additional costs for using a car if you
don't drive it? Like insurance, etc? Just don't drive them
and they are free?


Insurance is cheap and it is also necessary for cycling, which
is covered with the car insurance. The cost pales in comparison
to other items.


I see. You have insurance for your bicycle? What sort? collision
insurance to pay for all the cars you smash up with your
bicycle?


What would happen if you accidentally miss a stop sign and cause a
major pile up with injuries or death?

What would happen if you get hit by a driver who elects to vanish
from the scene and then you need years of skilled nursing care? And
no, health insurance only covers the initial medical part, not
longterm care.

As I wrote, my car insurance is for cars _and_ bicycles.

Yes, and here's an interesting twist -- no PIP or UIM coverage under
your own policy if you get hit by another bike.


Really? IIRC my insurance guy explained that to me as covering any kind
of crash.


... Around here, that
risk is probably as great or greater than getting hit by a car,
although the consequences are usually less.


The closest call in that respect was with a buck. No kidding. He didn't
even look back, just kept running.

For UIM or PIP, you have to be hit by a motor vehicle, at least in California. That doesn't mean you can't sue the other cyclist who would probably have coverage under his HO policy.

If you get hit by a car on your bike or as a pedestrian, then you can get UIM and PIP.

I was riding with my son last weekend, coming back from Canby after crossing on the ferry and encountered some cows. I stopped just to see if I could have a magical experience with them, like you do. Nothing. They just stood there, looking disinterested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhcRKkwMFtY The ferry is at 1:40, but damn it, no cows! Here's one at the TMK Creamery in Canby: https://www.facebook.com/TMKfarms/ph...type=3&theater I don't think that cow was among the ones I saw, though. No other magical or impressive animals that I can recall. Maybe some horses. I scared some Roosevelt Elk out on the coast a while back -- they can be nasty or behave unpredictably like cow-sized squirrels, so its best not to ride around them. https://www.hcn.org/articles/wildlif...ns-north-coast

-- Jay Beattie.

On 3/27/2019 4:33 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 12:37:51 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/27/2019 1:25 PM, jbeattie wrote:

Yes, and here's an interesting twist -- no PIP or UIM coverage under your own policy if you get hit by another bike. Around here, that risk is probably as great or greater than getting hit by a car, although the consequences are usually less.

Usually. Sometimes not.
https://boston.cbslocal.com/2019/03/...ash-lexington/

And sometimes even the magic hats don't help.

Apparently not, assuming he died of a head injury.

I'd say it didn't help no matter what injury he died of. He remains
dead, after all.

And apart from the question of what a helmet can and cannot prevent, one wonders what a bicycle head-on looks like in terms of impact -- what hits what. Well, wouldn't you know it, YouTube has examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RH5HBq5hOg https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=-pogz9RkwV4 Both on the same "super highway" facility!

How wide is that thing? The width certainly looks inadequate for the
volume of bike traffic.

I hate crowded bike facilities. Most times, I'd rather be in the road,
assuming car speeds are under 50 mph or so.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/27/2019 7:44 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-27 10:25, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 7:14:41 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

As I wrote, my car insurance is for cars _and_ bicycles.

Yes, and here's an interesting twist -- no PIP or UIM coverage under
your own policy if you get hit by another bike.


Really? IIRC my insurance guy explained that to me as covering any kind
of crash.

Insurance guys have been known to give rather misleading explanations.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 22:22:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/27/2019 7:44 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-27 10:25, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 7:14:41 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

As I wrote, my car insurance is for cars _and_ bicycles.

Yes, and here's an interesting twist -- no PIP or UIM coverage under
your own policy if you get hit by another bike.


Really? IIRC my insurance guy explained that to me as covering any kind
of crash.

Insurance guys have been known to give rather misleading explanations.

But they give you a written contract, don't they? I know nothing about
U.S. insurance policies but the ones we got when I was working, for
our equipment for example, were pretty complete and if there was a
question we would (actually have our Lawyer) write a letter to the
insurance company clarification of that point.

Won't U.S. companies formally clarify points in their contracts?
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 4:49:14 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-25 11:33, wrote:
On Saturday, March 23, 2019 at 4:09:26 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-20 09:42, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 19, 2019 at 1:28:01 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-19 11:17, wrote:
A couple of months ago when it was coldest my central
heating stopped igniting. My impression from the sounds it
was making was that the thermocouple was bad or the pilot
light that would be ignited was dirty or some such so that
the flame wasn't close enough to the thermocouple of inform
it that there was a real flame there and turn the full flame
on.

The repairman came out and said that the pilot and
thermocouple was OK and changed out the main gas valve. The
heater appeared to work for six weeks and then as the weather
got cold again started not lighting again.

The company sent another repairman out and he said that it
was the main control board and replaced that.

I am now $1,600 into "repairs" and sure enough - the heater
isn't lighting still.

It would appear to me at this time that there is nothing more
to replace but the pilot tube and the thermocouple. So I
wonder how to convince the repairman that there is something
wrong with one of those?


We had that happen a long time ago and the cause was the
electronic controller board. The central propane furnace would
go VROOOOP .. PHUTAH-PHUT ... RUMBLE ... VROOOOOOOOOP ... and
never stayed on anymore.

When the technician came out he exclaimed "Oh look, an old
Fenwal controller board!", saying he was amazed that it lasted
this long. He switched it out against one from another
manufacturer and all was well.

I asked him to leave the old board and when probing it I found
that the triac that controls the main burner valve had gone
partially bad so it wouldn't be able to send a full current
through the valve solenoid anymore. Could have kicked myself
because instead of paying a few hundred Dollars I could have
gotten one of those triac for a couple of Dollars and replaced
it. If these triac are on a separate driver board then check
that.

There is also a suction sensor, for example a flap in the
intake stream that operates a signaling switch. If that got
crudded up it might at times falsely signal a failing air draft
and that would cut the main valve.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/




when the technician came out again the board was showing errors
of "too many tries". He pulled the connector off and spread the
male connector so that it would make better connection to the
main gas valve and it appears to work perfectly now. Though when
the main gas valve was replaced 3 months ago it all worked fine
until recently.


The first technician could have diagnosed that easily by measuring
how many volts are actually arriving at the solenoid. This is the
first order of business for me when, for example, my wife says that
a certain zone in the yard doesn't get watered reliably.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

He got the correct readings because the problem wasn't the board but
the connection between the board and the gas solenoid not making
proper contact. Since both the board and the valve were new there
really wasn't any question about their working. It took him a little
while to isolate the connection. These connectors are the male and
female pin types. So it is virtually impossible to measure them when
connected.


However, it has to be done and not on the board side but at the
solenoid. Most such connectors are crimped these days. A thin sewing
needle usually gets in. If not I poke through the wire insulation with
the needles and later cover that with electrical tape.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

The third technician came out to work on my heater. This one has more experience and had an idea of what the problem was. He pulled the NEW gas switch out and used some wire extensions so that he could switch it outside of the heater. He triggered it several times and while there was a click, blowing into the tube revealed that the valve wasn't opening. He tried this several times until the butterfly valve would open on switching.

This was no charge since I had paid for a replacement valve already. He also ordered a new free valve and it should arrive in a couple of days. My suspicion is that the power would attempt to pull the solenoid open but that it wouldn't actually move - a number of things could cause this from insufficient clearance to it being a rebuilt solenoid that could cock in the slide or even never being lubricated. Or even it could have been a foreign product without compatible slide and raceway. Though that is improbable since the Chinese parts I've been getting are actually better designed than the older American components.

In any case he managed to duplicate the problem and will have it repaired in a couple of days.

On 2019-03-27 18:17, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 4:44:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-27 10:25, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 7:14:41 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-24 15:28, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 08:23:11 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-23 16:20, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 16:06:42 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-23 15:56, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 09:34:21 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-03-20 11:09, sms wrote:

[...]


There's a big move now to all-electric since the
electricity can be generated without the use of
fossil fuels.


Electric? With PG&E as the supplier? I won't touch
that with a 10ft pole for anything where electric
power isn't absolutely needed.Yve cooling. No tax
incentives there either because politicians are
generally not smart enough to understand the
benefits of that.

You bought a house in a gated community, and you own
two cars, and can't afford electricity?


Please pay closer attention to what was written and,
even more so, what was not written. Premature
conclusions are also not wise.

a. We do not live in a gated community. Never did.

Strange that as it has been said more than once that you
do live in a gated community and you have never before
refuted it?


I have. You should read more carefully.

Well perhaps I missed your reply to one or more of J's
messages mentioning your establishment.


Old rule: If you don't know, ask before making bold
statements.



b. Our cars are both well over 20 years old and we
drive less than 1200mi/year with each of them.

I see, there are no additional costs for using a car if
you don't drive it? Like insurance, etc? Just don't drive
them and they are free?


Insurance is cheap and it is also necessary for cycling,
which is covered with the car insurance. The cost pales in
comparison to other items.


I see. You have insurance for your bicycle? What sort?
collision insurance to pay for all the cars you smash up with
your bicycle?


What would happen if you accidentally miss a stop sign and
cause a major pile up with injuries or death?

What would happen if you get hit by a driver who elects to
vanish from the scene and then you need years of skilled
nursing care? And no, health insurance only covers the initial
medical part, not longterm care.

As I wrote, my car insurance is for cars _and_ bicycles.

Yes, and here's an interesting twist -- no PIP or UIM coverage
under your own policy if you get hit by another bike.


Really? IIRC my insurance guy explained that to me as covering any
kind of crash.


... Around here, that risk is probably as great or greater than
getting hit by a car, although the consequences are usually
less.


The closest call in that respect was with a buck. No kidding. He
didn't even look back, just kept running.

For UIM or PIP, you have to be hit by a motor vehicle, at least in
California. That doesn't mean you can't sue the other cyclist who
would probably have coverage under his HO policy.

If you get hit by a car on your bike or as a pedestrian, then you can
get UIM and PIP.

I was riding with my son last weekend, coming back from Canby after
crossing on the ferry and encountered some cows. I stopped just to
see if I could have a magical experience with them, like you do.
Nothing. They just stood there, looking disinterested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhcRKkwMFtY The ferry is at 1:40,
but damn it, no cows! Here's one at the TMK Creamery in Canby:
https://www.facebook.com/TMKfarms/ph...type=3&theater
I don't think that cow was among the ones I saw, though. No other
magical or impressive animals that I can recall. Maybe some horses. I
scared some Roosevelt Elk out on the coast a while back -- they can
be nasty or behave unpredictably like cow-sized squirrels, so its
best not to ride around them.
https://www.hcn.org/articles/wildlif...ns-north-coast


I found our cattle to react to music from my MP3 player. That was the
only option I had when I got them startled with my MTB. If I had
attempted to sing like cowboys would, with my voice, they'd have stampeded.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2019-03-28 01:20, wrote:
On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 22:22:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/27/2019 7:44 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-03-27 10:25, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 27, 2019 at 7:14:41 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

As I wrote, my car insurance is for cars _and_ bicycles.

Yes, and here's an interesting twist -- no PIP or UIM coverage under
your own policy if you get hit by another bike.


Really? IIRC my insurance guy explained that to me as covering any kind
of crash.

Insurance guys have been known to give rather misleading explanations.

But they give you a written contract, don't they? I know nothing about
U.S. insurance policies but the ones we got when I was working, for
our equipment for example, were pretty complete and if there was a
question we would (actually have our Lawyer) write a letter to the
insurance company clarification of that point.

Won't U.S. companies formally clarify points in their contracts?


A witnesses statement from a licensed insurance writer who works for the
underwriting company, or an email, is a pretty powerful thing in the
case of a dispute.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/