Jobst

rPer AMuzi:
Plus livestock antibiotics. Excellent payout for the grower;
low cost, faster bigger growth. Eventually you're evolving
some really hardy bugs though...

That's what has been preying on my mind the whole time.

Numbers of animals, tons of antibiotics, and uncontrolled usage time
would seem to make human over-use all but trivial by comparison.

Given the expected consequences of a post-antibiotic era, I can't figure
out why livestock use of antibiotics is not recognized as a major
national security issue.

Only thing I can come up with is money changing hands...
--
Pete Cresswell

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 3:08:49 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

But in a more serious vein, what is "wealth disparity"? Is it that you
make more money then I do? I'm fairly sure that you do as you seem to
be still working and I'm retired. Should I be rushing around waving my
arms in the air shouting Unfair! Unfair!

I think its obvious that certain workers must be paid more than other workers,
or at least get some sort of perks which make certain jobs more desirable. I
don't see any sense in a garbage man getting paid as much as a brain surgeon.

OTOH, I also don't see any sense in corporation CEOs getting paid hundreds of
times what their professional workers get paid, or paying a lower percentage of
their income in taxes. Other country's corporations seem to thrive with much smaller relative pay scales for CEOs.


I often wonder why CEO jobs aren't the ones being outsourced to India.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 8:42:18 AM UTC-7, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
rPer AMuzi:
Plus livestock antibiotics. Excellent payout for the grower;
low cost, faster bigger growth. Eventually you're evolving
some really hardy bugs though...

That's what has been preying on my mind the whole time.

Numbers of animals, tons of antibiotics, and uncontrolled usage time
would seem to make human over-use all but trivial by comparison.

Given the expected consequences of a post-antibiotic era, I can't figure
out why livestock use of antibiotics is not recognized as a major
national security issue.

Only thing I can come up with is money changing hands...
--
Pete Cresswell

Let me explain something to you guys - a bacteria has a VERY limited size of it's DNA. So as it develops antibiotic resistance it often has a reduced infection rate and/or effects from infection.

The cries of "HORRORS - WE ARE BREEDING ANTIBIOTIC RESISTANT DISEASES" are for the most part unfounded.

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 12:08:49 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 07 Sep 2017 00:04:28 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 15:05:20 +0700, John B wrote:
On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 17:01:31 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 12:49:06 +0700, John B
wrote:

Apprenticeship used to be a method of learning a trade. Abraham
Lincoln, I believe, "read for the law" which was realistically an
apprenticeship program.

It eventually became a term used to describe a learning period for
the manual trades (one might call them) and then the manual trades
became obsolete. Does anyone get up in the middle of the night to
knead tomorrow's bread? Or dig a ditch by hand?

Yes to people getting up early to make tomorrow's bread. We have
dozens of bakeries around here with people doing exactly that.

Ditches seem to be dug with mechanized equipment rather than a shovel
these days, and that's probably just as well. That kind of labor ends
up being destructive to the laborer.

Destructive? Exercise? Swinging a pick for eight hours a day. Or doing
any other manual labour. How so?

Seriously? Have you only had desk jobs? Hard labor jobs like digging
ditches, swinging a pick, repeated heavy lifting, etc., routinely cause
damage. Back problems, arthritis, etc. In my career I have seen
thousands of people disabled by the long term toll their careers took on
their bodies. The taxpayers, BTW, are paying for their nursing home
placements.

No, as I wrote in another post, I was raised on a small farm in New
England where just about everything was done by hand. Run a water
line out to the barn" You need a six foot deep trench to get below the
frost line. My father used to pay someone to mow the field and the
rest of the haying was done by hand. You want a new barn? Well get a
hammer and saw and build it.

My paternal grandfather raised chickens, in 3,000 chicken lots. By
himself, no help. He also cut wood, by hand, for the month of
September, to heat his house during a New England winter.

My mother's father broke his leg at 70 years of age, fell off a loaded
hay wagon, pitching hay up into the mow.O.K. the family considered it
a "dam fool thing to do" but he did it.

My Paternal grandfather died at 87 and my maternal grandfather at 92.
No disability. No Charity.

Back in my days of working in a produce warehouse as a lumper, every
Friday two of us would carry 36,000 pounds of bananas out of the semi
trailer in their boxes, stack 'em on pallets, pull them across the
warehouse into the storage rooms (bananas are kept relatively warm; if
chilled they won't ripen properly) with a manual pallet jack. Even
though I was 22 and strong as an ox in those days, I was damned sore
after that. Watermelons were worse, they weren't in boxes. Back in
those days I could toss a 100 lb bag of spuds on my shoulder and lump it
upstairs, with 50 bag of onions I could run upstairs. Now I probably
couldn't get the bag of spuds up off the floor.



I completed an apprenticeship to be a "Machinist", although I
subsequently went to an engineering school, but I can remember as
early as the mid-late 1960's that very little work for a qualified
machinist existed. One or maybe two in a big shop and the rest were
machine operators.

My apprenticeship, as such, was as a glazier which was my father's
trade. I did that for 7 years during high school and college. But
even in more technical fields like medicine, nursing, etc., there is a
period of apprenticeship by another name.

I know that The Donald talked about apprenticeships, and increasing
employment, and increasing minimum salaries, and reducing costs,
and, and, but I haven't seen much progress being made.

Well, he's made plenty of progress in being a douchebag.

Now there is an exercise in logic. (1) Increase wages which
certainly contributes to higher sales prices, and (2) reduce costs?
-- Cheers,

One of the many knots in capitalism. It's a system we're dedicated to
but doesn't really work that well- even though it works better than
all the alternatives tried thus far.

Yup, that paraphrases Winston Churchill, who actually said " Indeed it
has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except
for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

But still, the basic problem with democracy is the politician gets up
and says, "Vote for me." The audience says, "Why?"

As for capitalism.... what else is there?

Good question. Russia and China's attempts at communism didn't pan out.
But capitalism depends on inflation to provide the illusion of growth,
as well as a constantly growing population to provide an expanding
market. If the population stops growing, the economy collapses.
However, we've reached a point where further population growth is
rapidly becoming unsustainable. The massive increase in wealth
disparity over the past 50 years is also unsustainable- top heavy
structures do not stand long. Those who ignore the lessons of history
are doomed to repeat them. Buckle up for deja vu!

It isn't only Capitalism that seems to have to grow. A good friend
grew up in Hungary under the communist system and while I never
questioned him specifically, he did mention improvements in the life
some enthusiasm. Bicycle to motorcycle was one example I remember.

As for wealth disparity, I can remember when a doctor made a house
call.... for $2.00 :-) To be honest I never paid a doctor $2.00 to
make a house call but I remember being sick and the doctor coming and
my folks talking about $2.00. Granted, I was just a kid but my salary
was eleven cents a week for milking the cow six evenings a week. And
slopping two hogs.

But in a more serious vein, what is "wealth disparity"? Is it that you
make more money then I do? I'm fairly sure that you do as you seem to
be still working and I'm retired. Should I be rushing around waving my
arms in the air shouting Unfair! Unfair!

The concept that a bloke who starts a business selling bootleg records
out of the trunk of his car, for example, is not entitled to
everything he can make, or the guy, not even a collage graduate, that
starts up a little two man business that grows because they can
provide a service, is not entitled to his earnings, seems wrong to me.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Paradise. We used to -dream- of digging ditches ... would've been looxury to oos.

As for wealth disparity, I can remember when a doctor made a house
call.... for $2.00 :-)

We had to work at mill 14 hours/day for 8p/month!

My father used to pay someone to mow the field and the
rest of the haying was done by hand.
When OUR dad got home he'd beat us around the head with a broken bot'l!

S.CNR.

On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 07:07:12 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 12:08:49 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 07 Sep 2017 00:04:28 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 15:05:20 +0700, John B wrote:
On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 17:01:31 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 12:49:06 +0700, John B
wrote:

Apprenticeship used to be a method of learning a trade. Abraham
Lincoln, I believe, "read for the law" which was realistically an
apprenticeship program.

It eventually became a term used to describe a learning period for
the manual trades (one might call them) and then the manual trades
became obsolete. Does anyone get up in the middle of the night to
knead tomorrow's bread? Or dig a ditch by hand?

Yes to people getting up early to make tomorrow's bread. We have
dozens of bakeries around here with people doing exactly that.

Ditches seem to be dug with mechanized equipment rather than a shovel
these days, and that's probably just as well. That kind of labor ends
up being destructive to the laborer.

Destructive? Exercise? Swinging a pick for eight hours a day. Or doing
any other manual labour. How so?

Seriously? Have you only had desk jobs? Hard labor jobs like digging
ditches, swinging a pick, repeated heavy lifting, etc., routinely cause
damage. Back problems, arthritis, etc. In my career I have seen
thousands of people disabled by the long term toll their careers took on
their bodies. The taxpayers, BTW, are paying for their nursing home
placements.

No, as I wrote in another post, I was raised on a small farm in New
England where just about everything was done by hand. Run a water
line out to the barn" You need a six foot deep trench to get below the
frost line. My father used to pay someone to mow the field and the
rest of the haying was done by hand. You want a new barn? Well get a
hammer and saw and build it.

That's nothing. We never had a color TV! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

And probably not even a "remote" either.

The paradox of physical labor: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4681272/ Construction laborers have a higher obesity rate than librarians.

-- Jay Beattie.

Working on the railroad
Sleeping on the ground
Eating soda crackers, ten cents a pound.

But you do highlight one of the problems with a political system that
delights in appeasing the poor and downtrodden. You pay them big
salaries and they eat a lot and it becomes a health problem.

Had they been oppressed and forced to work for starvation wages there
would be no problems with obesity.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 07:31:26 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 5:47:34 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 6 Sep 2017 12:00:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 1:05:25 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:

Destructive? Exercise? Swinging a pick for eight hours a day. Or doing
any other manual labour. How so?

Well, it's plain that you've never worked.

Quite the contrary. I grew up on a small New England farm where most
of the work was done by hand. Ditches for water pipes were 6 feet deep
to get below the frost line, hay for the animals was cut with a mowing
machine and then tedded, loaded on wagons and mowed away by hand.

I did "chores" commensurate with my size from the time I was 6 or 7
years old. Shoot, everybody did. Didn't they?

Yup, that paraphrases Winston Churchill, who actually said " Indeed it
has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except
for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

But still, the basic problem with democracy is the politician gets up
and says, "Vote for me." The audience says, "Why?"

As for capitalism.... what else is there?

There is socialism as described by Marx and Lenin.

Which doesn't work. China's current prosperity is largely due to a
disabling of the original state run economy and now incorporates a
modified capitalistic system.

John, enough of your bull****. I know what happens to people who swing picks 8 hours a day. The human body is not designed for that sort of thing and you end up like my brother with a degraded bone structure in your back and legs like my brother.


I can comment on your relatives but I've know a great many people that
worked their entire life without the problems you describe. I had a
great uncle that had been a fireman on ships, shoveling coal by hand,
and was in his late 60's or early 70's when he worked a while for my
father. I watched him mow around a 2 acre field with a hand scythe -
that is about 400 yards a lap. He'd keep a bottle of water in one
corner and stop for a drink when he got reached that corner.

My grandfather raised chickens, about 3,000 of them usually, with no
help at all. He heated the house with wood for years and spent every
September cutting wood with an axe and a hand saw and hauling it home
and stacking it in the "wood house".

I could go on but why bother, it was common when I was a young fellow
to see people work. I might add that the great uncle died at 86, my
grandfather at 87.

You believe that people can work like that even though with the reduction of such labor the human lifespan has increased by 50%.

Yup it sure has. Taking people from the earliest days in the U.S.
who's lives were well documented we have Thomas Jefferson, 83 when he
died, John Adams was 90, George Washington was a young 67 - but he
died due to blood loss from the then popular medical procedure of
bloodletting, George Wythe was 80, Paul Revere was 83 and Ben Franklin
was 84.

Current U.S. male life expectancy seems to be 79.3 and one article
states that it is decreasing.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/22/us-l...o-by-2030.html

Essentially it says that "Notable among poor-performing countries is
the USA, whose life expectancy at birth is already lower than most
other high-income countries, and is projected to fall further behind
such that its 2030 life expectancy at birth might be similar to the
Czech".

It's pretty plain that dementia or whatever is taking it's toll on you. Tell me again how the military lied to me.

If dementia has overtaken me it apparently has overtaken the majority
of the world's data gathering agencies also.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 07:36:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, September 6, 2017 at 10:04:36 PM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 15:05:20 +0700, John B wrote:
On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 17:01:31 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 12:49:06 +0700, John B
wrote:

Apprenticeship used to be a method of learning a trade. Abraham
Lincoln, I believe, "read for the law" which was realistically an
apprenticeship program.

It eventually became a term used to describe a learning period for
the manual trades (one might call them) and then the manual trades
became obsolete. Does anyone get up in the middle of the night to
knead tomorrow's bread? Or dig a ditch by hand?

Yes to people getting up early to make tomorrow's bread. We have
dozens of bakeries around here with people doing exactly that.

Ditches seem to be dug with mechanized equipment rather than a shovel
these days, and that's probably just as well. That kind of labor ends
up being destructive to the laborer.

Destructive? Exercise? Swinging a pick for eight hours a day. Or doing
any other manual labour. How so?

Seriously? Have you only had desk jobs? Hard labor jobs like digging
ditches, swinging a pick, repeated heavy lifting, etc., routinely cause
damage. Back problems, arthritis, etc. In my career I have seen
thousands of people disabled by the long term toll their careers took on
their bodies. The taxpayers, BTW, are paying for their nursing home
placements.

Back in my days of working in a produce warehouse as a lumper, every
Friday two of us would carry 36,000 pounds of bananas out of the semi
trailer in their boxes, stack 'em on pallets, pull them across the
warehouse into the storage rooms (bananas are kept relatively warm; if
chilled they won't ripen properly) with a manual pallet jack. Even
though I was 22 and strong as an ox in those days, I was damned sore
after that. Watermelons were worse, they weren't in boxes. Back in
those days I could toss a 100 lb bag of spuds on my shoulder and lump it
upstairs, with 50 bag of onions I could run upstairs. Now I probably
couldn't get the bag of spuds up off the floor.



I completed an apprenticeship to be a "Machinist", although I
subsequently went to an engineering school, but I can remember as
early as the mid-late 1960's that very little work for a qualified
machinist existed. One or maybe two in a big shop and the rest were
machine operators.

My apprenticeship, as such, was as a glazier which was my father's
trade. I did that for 7 years during high school and college. But
even in more technical fields like medicine, nursing, etc., there is a
period of apprenticeship by another name.

I know that The Donald talked about apprenticeships, and increasing
employment, and increasing minimum salaries, and reducing costs,
and, and, but I haven't seen much progress being made.

Well, he's made plenty of progress in being a douchebag.

Now there is an exercise in logic. (1) Increase wages which
certainly contributes to higher sales prices, and (2) reduce costs?
-- Cheers,

One of the many knots in capitalism. It's a system we're dedicated to
but doesn't really work that well- even though it works better than
all the alternatives tried thus far.

Yup, that paraphrases Winston Churchill, who actually said " Indeed it
has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except
for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

But still, the basic problem with democracy is the politician gets up
and says, "Vote for me." The audience says, "Why?"

As for capitalism.... what else is there?

Good question. Russia and China's attempts at communism didn't pan out.
But capitalism depends on inflation to provide the illusion of growth,
as well as a constantly growing population to provide an expanding
market. If the population stops growing, the economy collapses.
However, we've reached a point where further population growth is
rapidly becoming unsustainable. The massive increase in wealth
disparity over the past 50 years is also unsustainable- top heavy
structures do not stand long. Those who ignore the lessons of history
are doomed to repeat them. Buckle up for deja vu!

I performed heavy labor just long enough to understand that such things could kill a man early and young. But John tells us that as a 7 year old he did them. Right. The first automations that were developed were to PREVENT hard manual labor.

No, I didn't say that. I said that "from the age of 6 or 7 I had
"chores that were commensurate with my size".

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 07 Sep 2017 11:42:09 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

rPer AMuzi:
Plus livestock antibiotics. Excellent payout for the grower;
low cost, faster bigger growth. Eventually you're evolving
some really hardy bugs though...

That's what has been preying on my mind the whole time.

Numbers of animals, tons of antibiotics, and uncontrolled usage time
would seem to make human over-use all but trivial by comparison.

Given the expected consequences of a post-antibiotic era, I can't figure
out why livestock use of antibiotics is not recognized as a major
national security issue.

Only thing I can come up with is money changing hands...

Not only antibiotics but I believe that various hormones are also
used. I read that growth hormones given to cattle produce more lean
beef faster. And time is money :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 11:16:11 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 3:08:49 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

But in a more serious vein, what is "wealth disparity"? Is it that you
make more money then I do? I'm fairly sure that you do as you seem to
be still working and I'm retired. Should I be rushing around waving my
arms in the air shouting Unfair! Unfair!

I think its obvious that certain workers must be paid more than other workers,
or at least get some sort of perks which make certain jobs more desirable. I
don't see any sense in a garbage man getting paid as much as a brain surgeon.

OTOH, I also don't see any sense in corporation CEOs getting paid hundreds of
times what their professional workers get paid, or paying a lower percentage of
their income in taxes. Other country's corporations seem to thrive with much smaller relative pay scales for CEOs.


What would be an equitable wage for a chap managing a world wide
business with 11,600 stores in 28 countries, employing 2.3 million
people with annual revenues of 480 billion dollars and a net income of
14.69 billion?


I often wonder why CEO jobs aren't the ones being outsourced to India.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 12:29:55 -0700 (PDT), Doug Landau
wrote:

On Thursday, September 7, 2017 at 12:08:49 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 07 Sep 2017 00:04:28 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Wed, 06 Sep 2017 15:05:20 +0700, John B wrote:
On Tue, 05 Sep 2017 17:01:31 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote:

On Mon, 04 Sep 2017 12:49:06 +0700, John B
wrote:

Apprenticeship used to be a method of learning a trade. Abraham
Lincoln, I believe, "read for the law" which was realistically an
apprenticeship program.

It eventually became a term used to describe a learning period for
the manual trades (one might call them) and then the manual trades
became obsolete. Does anyone get up in the middle of the night to
knead tomorrow's bread? Or dig a ditch by hand?

Yes to people getting up early to make tomorrow's bread. We have
dozens of bakeries around here with people doing exactly that.

Ditches seem to be dug with mechanized equipment rather than a shovel
these days, and that's probably just as well. That kind of labor ends
up being destructive to the laborer.

Destructive? Exercise? Swinging a pick for eight hours a day. Or doing
any other manual labour. How so?

Seriously? Have you only had desk jobs? Hard labor jobs like digging
ditches, swinging a pick, repeated heavy lifting, etc., routinely cause
damage. Back problems, arthritis, etc. In my career I have seen
thousands of people disabled by the long term toll their careers took on
their bodies. The taxpayers, BTW, are paying for their nursing home
placements.

No, as I wrote in another post, I was raised on a small farm in New
England where just about everything was done by hand. Run a water
line out to the barn" You need a six foot deep trench to get below the
frost line. My father used to pay someone to mow the field and the
rest of the haying was done by hand. You want a new barn? Well get a
hammer and saw and build it.

My paternal grandfather raised chickens, in 3,000 chicken lots. By
himself, no help. He also cut wood, by hand, for the month of
September, to heat his house during a New England winter.

My mother's father broke his leg at 70 years of age, fell off a loaded
hay wagon, pitching hay up into the mow.O.K. the family considered it
a "dam fool thing to do" but he did it.

My Paternal grandfather died at 87 and my maternal grandfather at 92.
No disability. No Charity.

Back in my days of working in a produce warehouse as a lumper, every
Friday two of us would carry 36,000 pounds of bananas out of the semi
trailer in their boxes, stack 'em on pallets, pull them across the
warehouse into the storage rooms (bananas are kept relatively warm; if
chilled they won't ripen properly) with a manual pallet jack. Even
though I was 22 and strong as an ox in those days, I was damned sore
after that. Watermelons were worse, they weren't in boxes. Back in
those days I could toss a 100 lb bag of spuds on my shoulder and lump it
upstairs, with 50 bag of onions I could run upstairs. Now I probably
couldn't get the bag of spuds up off the floor.



I completed an apprenticeship to be a "Machinist", although I
subsequently went to an engineering school, but I can remember as
early as the mid-late 1960's that very little work for a qualified
machinist existed. One or maybe two in a big shop and the rest were
machine operators.

My apprenticeship, as such, was as a glazier which was my father's
trade. I did that for 7 years during high school and college. But
even in more technical fields like medicine, nursing, etc., there is a
period of apprenticeship by another name.

I know that The Donald talked about apprenticeships, and increasing
employment, and increasing minimum salaries, and reducing costs,
and, and, but I haven't seen much progress being made.

Well, he's made plenty of progress in being a douchebag.

Now there is an exercise in logic. (1) Increase wages which
certainly contributes to higher sales prices, and (2) reduce costs?
-- Cheers,

One of the many knots in capitalism. It's a system we're dedicated to
but doesn't really work that well- even though it works better than
all the alternatives tried thus far.

Yup, that paraphrases Winston Churchill, who actually said " Indeed it
has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except
for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

But still, the basic problem with democracy is the politician gets up
and says, "Vote for me." The audience says, "Why?"

As for capitalism.... what else is there?

Good question. Russia and China's attempts at communism didn't pan out.
But capitalism depends on inflation to provide the illusion of growth,
as well as a constantly growing population to provide an expanding
market. If the population stops growing, the economy collapses.
However, we've reached a point where further population growth is
rapidly becoming unsustainable. The massive increase in wealth
disparity over the past 50 years is also unsustainable- top heavy
structures do not stand long. Those who ignore the lessons of history
are doomed to repeat them. Buckle up for deja vu!

It isn't only Capitalism that seems to have to grow. A good friend
grew up in Hungary under the communist system and while I never
questioned him specifically, he did mention improvements in the life
some enthusiasm. Bicycle to motorcycle was one example I remember.

As for wealth disparity, I can remember when a doctor made a house
call.... for $2.00 :-) To be honest I never paid a doctor $2.00 to
make a house call but I remember being sick and the doctor coming and
my folks talking about $2.00. Granted, I was just a kid but my salary
was eleven cents a week for milking the cow six evenings a week. And
slopping two hogs.

But in a more serious vein, what is "wealth disparity"? Is it that you
make more money then I do? I'm fairly sure that you do as you seem to
be still working and I'm retired. Should I be rushing around waving my
arms in the air shouting Unfair! Unfair!

The concept that a bloke who starts a business selling bootleg records
out of the trunk of his car, for example, is not entitled to
everything he can make, or the guy, not even a collage graduate, that
starts up a little two man business that grows because they can
provide a service, is not entitled to his earnings, seems wrong to me.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Paradise. We used to -dream- of digging ditches ... would've been looxury to oos.

As for wealth disparity, I can remember when a doctor made a house
call.... for $2.00 :-)

We had to work at mill 14 hours/day for 8p/month!

My father used to pay someone to mow the field and the
rest of the haying was done by hand.
When OUR dad got home he'd beat us around the head with a broken bot'l!

S.CNR.

So much for sarcasm.

But I doubt it was 8p/month as in mid-1860s manual laborers in London
received 3s. 9d. for a 10-hour day - 6 day week. An engineer I suspect
that the U.S. term would be "mechanic"' made 7/6 (= £110 pounds/year).
A bit earlier a mill worker (fabric) was paid 33/8 per week in 1833.

And, what you don't seem to mention was the cost of living in the same
period.

In about 1898 my grandfather and his wife "moved to town" and he
worked for a dollar a day as a carpenter. I once asked my grandmother
how they could have gotten along on a dollar a day (I was making 50
cents an hour after school and weekends) and she said, that it wasn't
a bad wage when bread cost 3 cents a loaf.

--
Cheers,

John B.