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Tire-making: questions and answers, but mostly questions



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 7th 15, 12:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DougC
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,276
Default Tire-making: questions and answers, but mostly questions

I am still going on the tire-making thing. The last machine to convert
to digital control is nearly done.

Some time ago I found a topic on the velomobile.de forum, that was about
"DIY tires". I posted in it to later find out that it wasn't really
about making tires; it was about making home-made wooden 20" tubular
rims, on which to mount cut-down tubular tires.

People talked anyway tho and at one point someone asked how I was
folding the casings I was making: was I folding both edges over to the
same side, or in a Z-arrangement (which he said was described as the
"Italian method").

From that time I would occasionally search online for any information
about this term, or of bicycle casing methods in general, and I've never
found anything. I've even tried searching for pertinent German and
Italian terms, and got nothing.... Is there any info online that any of
you have come across? Or even any books (printed) that delved into the
matter?

There's more info about making tubulars, but then,,, it seems that most
tubulars are made about 98% the same.

------

Once in a while I turn up a bit more info, but it takes a lot of looking
to find even a little something new.
On this page-
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/...factory-176590
tiny---------
http://tinyurl.com/ppgp5dc

{points are numbered to make arguing easier}

[Item #1]
First is this bit:
"... The first test sees the tyre run against a drum at 50kph
continuously for an entire week — the equivalent of 7,000km — also
receiving three shocks from various angles with every rotation, the
perfect simulation for your average British road surface. ..."

You see one of these machines in the "How It's Made" video for bicycle
tires (that was also made at a Continental factory, IIRC) but they don't
say how fast or how far a tire gets test-run. (~4349 miles @ 31mph, for
the non-conformant among us)

[Item #2]
The next interesting part is this bit:
"... Second, Continental tests how the tyre interacts with the rim. The
rim is lubricated with silicone and the tyre pumped up to twice its
maximum pressure (something in the region of 240psi/16.4 bar) to check
that it will never pop off the rim in real-world use. ..."

This would seem to cast a major question on the validity of the
Brandt/Rinard cut-tire-bead tests.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/tirebead.htm
Not that either test was faked--but that it represented an "ideal"
circumstance, of a modern tire on a modern (dry & clean) rim, that
attempted to draw conclusions about all clincher bicycle tires and rims
(even those not modern, nor dry and clean).

[Item #3]
For a great many years, many bicycle rims did not have hooked edges and
yet the tires still remained on them. If it was not due to bead
strength, what other factor was there?

[Item #4]
Also claiming that "bead looseness plays no part" ignores the many many
incidents of people experiencing broken tire beads when trying to use
non-tubeless tires on Stan's NoTubes setups. Usually after a tire would
break its bead cord this way, the tire was useless and would not stay
mounted, even with an inner tube inside (occasionally someone would see
a steel-bead break, but usually when this happened it was a kevlar-bead
tire).

[Item #5]
If you search MTB web forums now, you may well notice that broken beads
on tubeless MTB setups is not nearly as common an issue as it was 4-5
years ago.
That could be for at least two different reasons:
1--tire manufacturers have adopted a more-stringent test for their
products, and tire beads are made stronger now (particularly MTB tire
beads...?)
2--nowadays there are more choices of tubeless rims and tires, so more
people desiring tubeless setups are buying rims and tires made for that
purpose.

Ads
  #2  
Old November 7th 15, 02:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
David Scheidt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,268
Default Tire-making: questions and answers, but mostly questions

DougC wrote:
:I am still going on the tire-making thing. The last machine to convert

I have nothing to add, but I've been following your attempts with
great interest.

--
sig 118
  #3  
Old November 7th 15, 01:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,723
Default Tire-making: questions and answers, but mostly questions

On 11/6/2015 6:10 PM, DougC wrote:
I am still going on the tire-making thing. The last machine
to convert to digital control is nearly done.

Some time ago I found a topic on the velomobile.de forum,
that was about "DIY tires". I posted in it to later find out
that it wasn't really about making tires; it was about
making home-made wooden 20" tubular rims, on which to mount
cut-down tubular tires.

People talked anyway tho and at one point someone asked how
I was folding the casings I was making: was I folding both
edges over to the same side, or in a Z-arrangement (which he
said was described as the "Italian method").

From that time I would occasionally search online for any
information about this term, or of bicycle casing methods in
general, and I've never found anything. I've even tried
searching for pertinent German and Italian terms, and got
nothing.... Is there any info online that any of you have
come across? Or even any books (printed) that delved into
the matter?

There's more info about making tubulars, but then,,, it
seems that most tubulars are made about 98% the same.

------

Once in a while I turn up a bit more info, but it takes a
lot of looking to find even a little something new.
On this page-
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/...factory-176590

tiny---------
http://tinyurl.com/ppgp5dc

{points are numbered to make arguing easier}

[Item #1]
First is this bit:
"... The first test sees the tyre run against a drum at
50kph continuously for an entire week — the equivalent of
7,000km — also receiving three shocks from various angles
with every rotation, the perfect simulation for your average
British road surface. ..."

You see one of these machines in the "How It's Made" video
for bicycle tires (that was also made at a Continental
factory, IIRC) but they don't say how fast or how far a tire
gets test-run. (~4349 miles @ 31mph, for the non-conformant
among us)

[Item #2]
The next interesting part is this bit:
"... Second, Continental tests how the tyre interacts with
the rim. The rim is lubricated with silicone and the tyre
pumped up to twice its maximum pressure (something in the
region of 240psi/16.4 bar) to check that it will never pop
off the rim in real-world use. ..."

This would seem to cast a major question on the validity of
the Brandt/Rinard cut-tire-bead tests.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/tirebead.htm
Not that either test was faked--but that it represented an
"ideal" circumstance, of a modern tire on a modern (dry &
clean) rim, that attempted to draw conclusions about all
clincher bicycle tires and rims (even those not modern, nor
dry and clean).

[Item #3]
For a great many years, many bicycle rims did not have
hooked edges and yet the tires still remained on them. If it
was not due to bead strength, what other factor was there?

[Item #4]
Also claiming that "bead looseness plays no part" ignores
the many many incidents of people experiencing broken tire
beads when trying to use non-tubeless tires on Stan's
NoTubes setups. Usually after a tire would break its bead
cord this way, the tire was useless and would not stay
mounted, even with an inner tube inside (occasionally
someone would see a steel-bead break, but usually when this
happened it was a kevlar-bead tire).

[Item #5]
If you search MTB web forums now, you may well notice that
broken beads on tubeless MTB setups is not nearly as common
an issue as it was 4-5 years ago.
That could be for at least two different reasons:
1--tire manufacturers have adopted a more-stringent test for
their products, and tire beads are made stronger now
(particularly MTB tire beads...?)
2--nowadays there are more choices of tubeless rims and
tires, so more people desiring tubeless setups are buying
rims and tires made for that purpose.


I am not an expert on tire manufacturing or design theory
but, as regards broken tire beads, the early tubeless
aficionados used thick rim liners which meant sometimes
excessive force in mounting to get the bead over the rim
edge. Severe kinks and tears at the bead edge from hamhanded
mounting probably adds to the problem. We saw a lot of that,
less now. I don't think there's anything inherent to
tubeless which would cause that otherwise.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #4  
Old November 8th 15, 05:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,190
Default Tire-making: questions and answers, but mostly questions

On 07/11/15 01:10, DougC wrote:
I am still going on the tire-making thing. The last machine to convert
to digital control is nearly done.


Am I missing blog posts on this subject? I was following with some
interest.

  #5  
Old November 8th 15, 06:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,507
Default Tire-making: questions and answers, but mostly questions

On 2015-11-06 16:10, DougC wrote:
I am still going on the tire-making thing. The last machine to convert
to digital control is nearly done.


Wow! You have my utmost respect. That is a tough task.

[Interesting points but can't comment on those]


[Item #5]
If you search MTB web forums now, you may well notice that broken beads
on tubeless MTB setups is not nearly as common an issue as it was 4-5
years ago.
That could be for at least two different reasons:
1--tire manufacturers have adopted a more-stringent test for their
products, and tire beads are made stronger now (particularly MTB tire
beads...?)
2--nowadays there are more choices of tubeless rims and tires, so more
people desiring tubeless setups are buying rims and tires made for that
purpose.


Broken beads are not a problem AFAICT. Major issues with MTB tires:

1. Very poor lifetime. 500 miles - gone :-(

2. Poor sidewalls, meaning tears and often premature tire failure.

3. Knobs ripping out, often resulting in craters which means the tires
is shot.

I lost numerous tires that still had good tread pattern to #2 and #3.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #6  
Old November 8th 15, 07:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
DougC
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,276
Default Tire-making: questions and answers, but mostly questions

On 11/8/2015 11:38 AM, Tosspot wrote:
On 07/11/15 01:10, DougC wrote:
I am still going on the tire-making thing. The last machine to convert
to digital control is nearly done.


Am I missing blog posts on this subject? I was following with some
interest.


It should be the last post (#15) he
http://www.norcom2000.com/users/dcim...king_main.html
------- or tiny ----------
http://tinyurl.com/bpz3u7y

The updates are pretty sparse. When I look back over the entry dates I'm
surprised how long I've been at this.

A lot of things came up with the digital revolution here...
programming-arduino issues (it is a cheap processor and doesn't work
*perfect*) and needing-yet-another-different-20-cent-electronic-part
issues (cheap from China but ~3-week shipping times,,,).
  #7  
Old November 9th 15, 06:13 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,190
Default Tire-making: questions and answers, but mostly questions

On 08/11/15 20:38, DougC wrote:
On 11/8/2015 11:38 AM, Tosspot wrote:
On 07/11/15 01:10, DougC wrote:
I am still going on the tire-making thing. The last machine to convert
to digital control is nearly done.


Am I missing blog posts on this subject? I was following with some
interest.


It should be the last post (#15) he
http://www.norcom2000.com/users/dcim...king_main.html

------- or tiny ----------
http://tinyurl.com/bpz3u7y

The updates are pretty sparse. When I look back over the entry dates I'm
surprised how long I've been at this.

A lot of things came up with the digital revolution here...
programming-arduino issues (it is a cheap processor and doesn't work
*perfect*) and needing-yet-another-different-20-cent-electronic-part
issues (cheap from China but ~3-week shipping times,,,).


"I left it plugged in too long and it caught on fire' !!! And that
beading machine is surely not in your living room?

Nice one though, those tyres look like, well, tyres to me :-)
 




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