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  #71  
Old June 1st 21, 09:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Posts: 2,041
Default Good quality bikes

On Monday, May 31, 2021 at 2:45:29 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 5/25/21 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
The Airborne looks like it will be about a half lb less weight than the Trek Emonda in the same size. One might suppose that the Trek might be more Aero but like the Airborne, it has large diameter tubes that had no attempt at being aero in design. Also one would have to question whether small diameter round steel tubes are less aero than the much larger diameter of, say, the Pinarello frameset. I can't say that I ever noticed any difference between the late Basso Loto I had and the Trek Madone which was supposedly quite aero.

Of course I'm not a pro rider and I very seldom even approach the speeds that the pros commonly get in the peloton.

But isn't that the entire point of Aero? To give you that very small gain when you ride at those sorts of speeds all day long? You sure as hell aren't going to put out these sorts of power and my entire reason for posting this is to tell you that you sure as hell aren't going to gain enough to even consider spending large amounts of money on a fantasy bike to make it worth your while.

Another point - Components are now more expensive than good frames. But China is invading that space as well. You can get a Sensah 11 speed group complete for $200. They have been working their way up from not very reliable and seem to have now hit a high enough reliability standard that I will give them a test. The failure points seem to be the levers on the previous versions but that supposedly has been reengineered to be reliable. And if it weren't so you could always buy SRAM levers which have the same pull ratio and we know that those levers are reliable. And you would still save a pile of money. I'll see after I get rid of all of my extraneous bikes.

I wish bikes would achieve at least the quality of a cheap car. But they
don't and that includes expensive stuff. Every few hundred miles
something needs maintenance, wears out of needs service. Our cars go
tens of thousands of miles without a lick of trouble, all they needs is
an oil change every 4000-5000mi.

Yesterday the MicroShift derailer on the road bike began biting the
dust. The freehub is announcing its demise as well. Same for the bottom
bracket which began noise messaging, again. For both I bought the most
expensive ones from Shimano that I could find and that would fit. Not
going to do that again.

And don't get me started on tires. Hurumph, grumble.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/


?????????
When I read your post I was very confused. As in what century do you live or were riding? I have too many bikes. All from the past 23 years or so. All run perfectly and continue to run perfectly with minimal maintenance or repair. Sometimes parts wear out but that is fairly rare. Repairs are almost always flat tires. I do service, rebuild the bikes every few years or so. But I consider that basic maintenance. All my bikes are Shimano and Campagnolo 9 and 10 sped. So all good or better quality.
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  #72  
Old June 1st 21, 11:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
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Posts: 2,196
Default Good quality bikes

On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 12:32:08 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 12:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 11:12:31 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 5/31/21 4:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 31 May 2021 12:45:24 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 5/25/21 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
The Airborne looks like it will be about a half lb less
weight than the Trek Emonda in the same size. One might
suppose that the Trek might be more Aero but like the
Airborne, it has large diameter tubes that had no attempt at
being aero in design. Also one would have to question whether
small diameter round steel tubes are less aero than the much
larger diameter of, say, the Pinarello frameset. I can't say
that I ever noticed any difference between the late Basso
Loto I had and the Trek Madone which was supposedly quite
aero.

Of course I'm not a pro rider and I very seldom even approach
the speeds that the pros commonly get in the peloton.

But isn't that the entire point of Aero? To give you that
very small gain when you ride at those sorts of speeds all
day long? You sure as hell aren't going to put out these
sorts of power and my entire reason for posting this is to
tell you that you sure as hell aren't going to gain enough to
even consider spending large amounts of money on a fantasy
bike to make it worth your while.

Another point - Components are now more expensive than good
frames. But China is invading that space as well. You can get
a Sensah 11 speed group complete for $200. They have been
working their way up from not very reliable and seem to have
now hit a high enough reliability standard that I will give
them a test. The failure points seem to be the levers on the
previous versions but that supposedly has been reengineered
to be reliable. And if it weren't so you could always buy
SRAM levers which have the same pull ratio and we know that
those levers are reliable. And you would still save a pile of
money. I'll see after I get rid of all of my extraneous
bikes.


I wish bikes would achieve at least the quality of a cheap car.
But they don't and that includes expensive stuff. Every few
hundred miles something needs maintenance, wears out of needs
service. Our cars go tens of thousands of miles without a lick
of trouble, all they needs is an oil change every 4000-5000mi.

Yesterday the MicroShift derailer on the road bike began biting
the dust. The freehub is announcing its demise as well. Same
for the bottom bracket which began noise messaging, again. For
both I bought the most expensive ones from Shimano that I could
find and that would fit. Not going to do that again.

And don't get me started on tires. Hurumph, grumble.

Well, this has been discussed before buy I would suggest (again)
that if you are willing to pay as much for a bicycle as you do
for your auto then it is highly likely that you will be able to
get one that will last practically for ever.

But you are the guy that brags about using the cheapest tires
that you can get, aren't you?

No, I buy cheap tires because with lots of bike stuff you simply do
not get what you pay for. I found out that $15 road bike tires do
not last any less on average than $50 ones. Same on the MTB. I had
really expensive tires on the rear. Lasted 800mi. Now I use $20
tires and they last ... 800mi. Then the tread is gone.

My SUV tires cost me $80 and they last well over 50,000mi even
when often schlepping half a ton of firewood across rutty dirt
roads. Now that's what I call a good price/performance ratio.

All I am asking for is, for example, this: Offer a derailer that
has ball bearings in the linkages, a really strong cage and then
charge 2x the usual price for it. Not 10x. To heck with the extra
200 grams, offer people some reasonable choice. There are a lot of
people who aren't weight weenies but they simply want to arrive on
time. Just like they can with their cars.

I am aware there are things such as Rohloff hubs. However, I have
known people who have crunched those or had other issues with them
such as erratic shifting and gears not holding. That simply does
not happen on a car. When I inquired about the cost that took the
cake. They wanted $1500 just for the hub. Plus tax. Plus shifter.
Plus cable. Plus labor. Crazy.


Crazy to you but not to all the people on expedition bikes headed to
Tierra Del Fuego, which is considerably more difficult than riding a
'70s Euro sport bike around the roads and trails in Cameron Park.
http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/Th...loff_LoRes.pdf
BTW, I know people (me) who have had issues with car transmissions,
so I'm not surprised that some number of purchasers had issues with
their Rohloff hubs -- or any other product for that matter. Every
product has a failure rate.

Buy a classic Japanese stick-shift SUV and the chances of such
transmission failure are near zero. Even US vehicles are good in that
respect when they are stick-shift.
I'm not a Rohloff fan because they're too expensive for my needs, but
you apparently need a bomb-proof road bike. Get ready to pay and
quit moaning about how a 3,000 pound car is more durable.

Other cheaper options include six speed and a triple and friction
shift. I don't think there was an STI/Ergo 6speed system, so you're
stuck with friction -- maybe some bar-ends. You can use old Deore
derailleurs, which are the true survivor cockroaches of derailleurs.

I've got friction shifters on the road bike and the new Deore XT stuff
on the MTB. The shifters are ok, it's the derailers that are too wimpy.
All it takes is a twig or some other minor debris to be picked up and
hitting it and it's bent. Happened on Sunday. Again.

My dream would be a shaft-driven bike. A German tractor manufacturer
used to build them but they don't look sturdy enough to me:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/94791513@N04/14033652688

Anyhow, can't get those in the US.
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

A clean chain and cogset through a derailleur is about 98% or better efficient. That shaft drive bike was something like 92%. Of course, it was 92% almost until the gears were worn out. But the difference was substantial. That is why we don't see shaft drives. Imagine a shaft drive and a Rolhoff 12 speed.
  #73  
Old June 1st 21, 11:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,196
Default Good quality bikes

On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 12:33:36 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/1/2021 3:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:

Other cheaper options include six speed and a triple and friction shift.. I don't think there was an STI/Ergo 6speed system, so you're stuck with friction -- maybe some bar-ends. You can use old Deore derailleurs, which are the true survivor cockroaches of derailleurs.

Right. I doubt there's ever been a derailleur with ball bearing
linkages. It's inappropriate technology. If anything, you might want
replaceable bushings.


Why do you chose now to make an actual good engineering statement?
  #74  
Old June 1st 21, 11:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Good quality bikes

On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 10:45:18 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 5/31/2021 7:53 PM, jbeattie wrote:

Joerg can get closer to the durability of an inexpensive car, but it will cost as much as an inexpensive car -- like a Rohloff Speedhub with a 6 speed chain. With the ebike tire market going great guns, there are plenty of durable tires on the market (that ride like rocks). Joerg has a sketchy transmission on his road bike, and it could be improved -- or he could dump the museum piece and buy a https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/b...alr-5/p/24385/ Great value. Or https://www.specialized.com/us/en/di...ext=96220-4044. There are lots of better options than a 40 year old sport racing bike for riding in the Sierra foothills.
Do you think the chain and cogs would last long enough to satisfy Joerg?


No. I just picked a couple of budget bikes that would be appropriate for the kind of riding he's doing. He'd have to spend more than twice as much to get a Speedhub/6sp chain set up -- or he could just get a Checkpoint or Diverge aluminum frame and build a nice 3X6, although that would mean downgrading to cable discs, which still work fine. Getting along on a sport racing bike seems odd. There are also a lot of nice steel options. I always liked the Soma Fog Cutter, too. https://www.somafab.com/archives/pro...tter-frame-set There are many other steel options. He could buy that Thorn that Andre posted.


Joerg is pretty unique, from what I can tell. But speaking of "tech" -

It's pretty well accepted that 10 or 11 speed derailleur systems don't
last as long as, say, 8 speed systems.

If Joerg hypothetically wanted to, would it be feasible to convert an 11
speed to an 8 speed system that would accept that longer life type of
chain?

I'm sure he'd be fine with friction shifters. What would have to happen
back at the cassette?


Why stop with 8 speeds. I still see "department store" bikes with 10
speed - 2 chain rings.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #75  
Old June 1st 21, 11:58 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Good quality bikes

On 6/1/21 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 12:32:08 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:


[...]


My dream would be a shaft-driven bike. A German tractor manufacturer
used to build them but they don't look sturdy enough to me:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/94791513@N04/14033652688

Anyhow, can't get those in the US.
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

A clean chain and cogset through a derailleur is about 98% or better efficient. That shaft drive bike was something like 92%. Of course, it was 92% almost until the gears were worn out. But the difference was substantial. That is why we don't see shaft drives. Imagine a shaft drive and a Rolhoff 12 speed.


92% would be perfectly fine with me. Just the absence of chain
maintenance would be worth it.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #76  
Old June 2nd 21, 12:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Good quality bikes

On 6/1/2021 5:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 12:32:08 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 12:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 11:12:31 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 5/31/21 4:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 31 May 2021 12:45:24 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 5/25/21 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
The Airborne looks like it will be about a half lb less
weight than the Trek Emonda in the same size. One might
suppose that the Trek might be more Aero but like the
Airborne, it has large diameter tubes that had no attempt at
being aero in design. Also one would have to question whether
small diameter round steel tubes are less aero than the much
larger diameter of, say, the Pinarello frameset. I can't say
that I ever noticed any difference between the late Basso
Loto I had and the Trek Madone which was supposedly quite
aero.

Of course I'm not a pro rider and I very seldom even approach
the speeds that the pros commonly get in the peloton.

But isn't that the entire point of Aero? To give you that
very small gain when you ride at those sorts of speeds all
day long? You sure as hell aren't going to put out these
sorts of power and my entire reason for posting this is to
tell you that you sure as hell aren't going to gain enough to
even consider spending large amounts of money on a fantasy
bike to make it worth your while.

Another point - Components are now more expensive than good
frames. But China is invading that space as well. You can get
a Sensah 11 speed group complete for $200. They have been
working their way up from not very reliable and seem to have
now hit a high enough reliability standard that I will give
them a test. The failure points seem to be the levers on the
previous versions but that supposedly has been reengineered
to be reliable. And if it weren't so you could always buy
SRAM levers which have the same pull ratio and we know that
those levers are reliable. And you would still save a pile of
money. I'll see after I get rid of all of my extraneous
bikes.


I wish bikes would achieve at least the quality of a cheap car.
But they don't and that includes expensive stuff. Every few
hundred miles something needs maintenance, wears out of needs
service. Our cars go tens of thousands of miles without a lick
of trouble, all they needs is an oil change every 4000-5000mi.

Yesterday the MicroShift derailer on the road bike began biting
the dust. The freehub is announcing its demise as well. Same
for the bottom bracket which began noise messaging, again. For
both I bought the most expensive ones from Shimano that I could
find and that would fit. Not going to do that again.

And don't get me started on tires. Hurumph, grumble.

Well, this has been discussed before buy I would suggest (again)
that if you are willing to pay as much for a bicycle as you do
for your auto then it is highly likely that you will be able to
get one that will last practically for ever.

But you are the guy that brags about using the cheapest tires
that you can get, aren't you?

No, I buy cheap tires because with lots of bike stuff you simply do
not get what you pay for. I found out that $15 road bike tires do
not last any less on average than $50 ones. Same on the MTB. I had
really expensive tires on the rear. Lasted 800mi. Now I use $20
tires and they last ... 800mi. Then the tread is gone.

My SUV tires cost me $80 and they last well over 50,000mi even
when often schlepping half a ton of firewood across rutty dirt
roads. Now that's what I call a good price/performance ratio.

All I am asking for is, for example, this: Offer a derailer that
has ball bearings in the linkages, a really strong cage and then
charge 2x the usual price for it. Not 10x. To heck with the extra
200 grams, offer people some reasonable choice. There are a lot of
people who aren't weight weenies but they simply want to arrive on
time. Just like they can with their cars.

I am aware there are things such as Rohloff hubs. However, I have
known people who have crunched those or had other issues with them
such as erratic shifting and gears not holding. That simply does
not happen on a car. When I inquired about the cost that took the
cake. They wanted $1500 just for the hub. Plus tax. Plus shifter.
Plus cable. Plus labor. Crazy.

Crazy to you but not to all the people on expedition bikes headed to
Tierra Del Fuego, which is considerably more difficult than riding a
'70s Euro sport bike around the roads and trails in Cameron Park.
http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/Th...loff_LoRes.pdf
BTW, I know people (me) who have had issues with car transmissions,
so I'm not surprised that some number of purchasers had issues with
their Rohloff hubs -- or any other product for that matter. Every
product has a failure rate.

Buy a classic Japanese stick-shift SUV and the chances of such
transmission failure are near zero. Even US vehicles are good in that
respect when they are stick-shift.
I'm not a Rohloff fan because they're too expensive for my needs, but
you apparently need a bomb-proof road bike. Get ready to pay and
quit moaning about how a 3,000 pound car is more durable.

Other cheaper options include six speed and a triple and friction
shift. I don't think there was an STI/Ergo 6speed system, so you're
stuck with friction -- maybe some bar-ends. You can use old Deore
derailleurs, which are the true survivor cockroaches of derailleurs.

I've got friction shifters on the road bike and the new Deore XT stuff
on the MTB. The shifters are ok, it's the derailers that are too wimpy.
All it takes is a twig or some other minor debris to be picked up and
hitting it and it's bent. Happened on Sunday. Again.

My dream would be a shaft-driven bike. A German tractor manufacturer
used to build them but they don't look sturdy enough to me:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/94791513@N04/14033652688

Anyhow, can't get those in the US.
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

A clean chain and cogset through a derailleur is about 98% or better efficient. That shaft drive bike was something like 92%. Of course, it was 92% almost until the gears were worn out. But the difference was substantial. That is why we don't see shaft drives. Imagine a shaft drive and a Rolhoff 12 speed.


Adjustable versions are beyond amateurs for setting gear
lash. Modern 'sealed' units are less efficient and have a
slider spline joint usually. The concept has merit IMHO but
not at any cost within bicycle buyers' parameters.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #77  
Old June 2nd 21, 01:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Good quality bikes

On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 11:12:28 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 5/31/21 4:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 31 May 2021 12:45:24 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 5/25/21 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
The Airborne looks like it will be about a half lb less weight than the Trek Emonda in the same size. One might suppose that the Trek might be more Aero but like the Airborne, it has large diameter tubes that had no attempt at being aero in design. Also one would have to question whether small diameter round steel tubes are less aero than the much larger diameter of, say, the Pinarello frameset. I can't say that I ever noticed any difference between the late Basso Loto I had and the Trek Madone which was supposedly quite aero.

Of course I'm not a pro rider and I very seldom even approach the speeds that the pros commonly get in the peloton.

But isn't that the entire point of Aero? To give you that very small gain when you ride at those sorts of speeds all day long? You sure as hell aren't going to put out these sorts of power and my entire reason for posting this is to tell you that you sure as hell aren't going to gain enough to even consider spending large amounts of money on a fantasy bike to make it worth your while.

Another point - Components are now more expensive than good frames. But China is invading that space as well. You can get a Sensah 11 speed group complete for $200. They have been working their way up from not very reliable and seem to have now hit a high enough reliability standard that I will give them a test. The failure points seem to be the levers on the previous versions but that supposedly has been reengineered to be reliable. And if it weren't so you could always buy SRAM levers which have the same pull ratio and we know that those levers are reliable. And you would still save a pile of money. I'll see after I get rid of all of my extraneous bikes.


I wish bikes would achieve at least the quality of a cheap car. But they
don't and that includes expensive stuff. Every few hundred miles
something needs maintenance, wears out of needs service. Our cars go
tens of thousands of miles without a lick of trouble, all they needs is
an oil change every 4000-5000mi.

Yesterday the MicroShift derailer on the road bike began biting the
dust. The freehub is announcing its demise as well. Same for the bottom
bracket which began noise messaging, again. For both I bought the most
expensive ones from Shimano that I could find and that would fit. Not
going to do that again.

And don't get me started on tires. Hurumph, grumble.


Well, this has been discussed before buy I would suggest (again) that
if you are willing to pay as much for a bicycle as you do for your
auto then it is highly likely that you will be able to get one that
will last practically for ever.

But you are the guy that brags about using the cheapest tires that you
can get, aren't you?


No, I buy cheap tires because with lots of bike stuff you simply do not
get what you pay for. I found out that $15 road bike tires do not last
any less on average than $50 ones. Same on the MTB. I had really
expensive tires on the rear. Lasted 800mi. Now I use $20 tires and they
last ... 800mi. Then the tread is gone.


Yes, but it is possible to make a bicycle tire that would last your
quoted 50,000 miles. Of course it will, like the auto tire, be
substantially heavier and thicker then the more up-market bike tires
and a cursory check of prices indicate that they will be in the $200 -
$300 or higher , range.

In fact there was a guy that used to post here that was making tires.
You could try and contact him to see whether you could have custom
tires with (I estimate) about 5/8" thick tread and perhaps 1/4"
sidewalls.

My SUV tires cost me $80 and they last well over 50,000mi even when
often schlepping half a ton of firewood across rutty dirt roads. Now
that's what I call a good price/performance ratio.


$1.60 that I believe I mentioned I had seen the tires that you
advocate on sale here for... lets see, that would be 80/1.60 = 50 X
800 = 40,000 miles... It sounds like you are getting your money's
worth.

Of course, if you are naive to pay $20 for a $1.60 item then there is
no help for you.

All I am asking for is, for example, this: Offer a derailer that has
ball bearings in the linkages, a really strong cage and then charge 2x
the usual price for it. Not 10x. To heck with the extra 200 grams, offer
people some reasonable choice. There are a lot of people who aren't
weight weenies but they simply want to arrive on time. Just like they
can with their cars.

I am aware there are things such as Rohloff hubs. However, I have known
people who have crunched those or had other issues with them such as
erratic shifting and gears not holding. That simply does not happen on a
car. When I inquired about the cost that took the cake. They wanted
$1500 just for the hub. Plus tax. Plus shifter. Plus cable. Plus labor.
Crazy.

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #78  
Old June 2nd 21, 01:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default Good quality bikes

On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 15:58:08 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 6/1/21 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 12:32:08 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:


[...]


My dream would be a shaft-driven bike. A German tractor manufacturer
used to build them but they don't look sturdy enough to me:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/94791513@N04/14033652688

Anyhow, can't get those in the US.
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

A clean chain and cogset through a derailleur is about 98% or better efficient. That shaft drive bike was something like 92%. Of course, it was 92% almost until the gears were worn out. But the difference was substantial. That is why we don't see shaft drives. Imagine a shaft drive and a Rolhoff 12 speed.


92% would be perfectly fine with me. Just the absence of chain
maintenance would be worth it.


But you can buy a shaft drive bicycle. See:
http://www.webbicycle.com/bikes/cruz3.php
http://doingdesmoines.com/2015/08/03...s-bike-photos/
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #79  
Old June 2nd 21, 03:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Good quality bikes

On 6/1/2021 3:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 11:12:31 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

I am aware there are things such as Rohloff hubs. However, I have known
people who have crunched those or had other issues with them such as
erratic shifting and gears not holding. That simply does not happen on a
car. When I inquired about the cost that took the cake. They wanted
$1500 just for the hub. Plus tax. Plus shifter. Plus cable. Plus labor.
Crazy.


Crazy to you but not to all the people on expedition bikes headed to Tierra Del Fuego, which is considerably more difficult than riding a '70s Euro sport bike around the roads and trails in Cameron Park. http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/Th...loff_LoRes.pdf


Tierra Del Fuego? Bah. That guy ain't a _real_ cyclist. He don't wear a
helmet!

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #80  
Old June 2nd 21, 07:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lou Holtman[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 826
Default Good quality bikes

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 4:21:26 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Tierra Del Fuego? Bah. That guy ain't a _real_ cyclist. He don't wear a
helmet!

--
- Frank Krygowski



There we go again....

Lou
 




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