Shimano availability?

On 6/9/2021 2:34 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 12:22:15 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 10:49:29 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/9/2021 11:16 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 3:03:53 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 3:24:13 p.m. UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/8/2021 2:20 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 7:58:04 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/7/2021 10:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/7/2021 10:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 16:11:51 -0700 (PDT), Mark cleary
wrote:

So COVID has shot the groupsets of Shimano. I am not a
dura-ace person and I still shift with cables. Are they
going to be making or shipping Ultegra or 105 stuff.
Maybe it all is dried but and in the end looking for it
will never come. I would even go to a disk brake set up
if I could find 105 stuff. I have Ultegra now but frankly
105 is just as good.
Deacon mark

While you're waiting, you might consider making your own
parts (and
selling extra parts to others in your situation). For
example:
https://stlbase.com/browse/bicycle+shimano/
https://www.yeggi.com/q/shimano/
Unfortunately, making the stamped steel cassette gears
will probably
be too difficult. However, it might be possible to use a
water jet
cutter to make the chainrings.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=waterjet+cutter+bicycle+chainrin g


Mo
https://www.google.com/search?q=3d+printed+bicycle+parts&tbm=isch


A bit more seriously: I've sometimes thought it would be
nice to have access to a CNC mill, to refurbish freewheel
cogs. It would keep my ancient SunTour freewheels going.

Is that even possible? Any material removal just reduces
the root diameter, right?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

You beat me to it Andy. I was thinking the exact same thing when I read Frank's post. What good would a mill do you since it removes material. Grinds steel away. With cassette or freewheel cogs, the chain has ground off metal through use. So how would a mill grinding more material off help anything. Unless you were going to use the mill to grind, make, all new freewheel cogs and then disassemble and reassemble the freewheel. But I think you are getting close to the cure cancer and end hunger and peace in the world category at that point. I've heard freewheels are not something human beings disassemble and repair the internals. At least not sane ones.
I'll just mention that I've heard of others refurbishing freewheel cogs
manually, using a similar but less precise strategy. IIRC, James (who
posts here from Oz) claimed to have done that. John Forester also used
to claim he did it.

Again, this CNC scheme is hypothetical, at least for me. I no longer
have access to a CNC mill, and there are alternative strategies that are
easier. But if a person wanted to (say) restore a rare antique I don't
see a reason the CNC strategy wouldn't work.


--
- Frank Krygowski
I it possible to disaasemble the cogs from the body, t hen flip the cogs and reinstall them as can be done with Uniglide Cassette cogs?

In the days of a 5 speed, yes, after the advent of 6 speed, no because they had lifts on them to make them shift via click shifting. The first cassettes/freehubs were 7 speed and by the time of the 8 speed the entire industry had shifting steps. I even have a set of tri-color Ultegra cranks and brakes from that time I just tripped over yesterday.

Early sixes (Regina, Atom, Everest, Suntour etc) all had
symmetric tooth profiles.

The original Shimano cassette system was five speed.
I absolutely do NOT remember a 5 speed cassette. Shimano SIS wasn't even introduced until 1984 on the Dura Ace group and that was a 7 speed wasn't it? I remember 6 speed SIS but not on a freehub. Though perhaps the offroad group had that.

I just went out and looked at Sheldon Brown's site and he only mentions 7 speed freehubs.


Which are/were current when Mr Brown was writing.

Original Dura Ace offered FH-7250 five speed or FH-7260 six
speed freehubs/cassettes. The Inter Webs were no help
whatsoever so I went to our library he

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/shfh7250.jpg

What I could not find is the previous version supplied on
Motobécanes among others. I don't recall ever seeing those
except o.e.m. on mid to low priced sport bikes, no
aftermarket parts listings (I lived my life in parts books
during that time). Notice in diagram above there's no
separate bolt to hold the cassette body to the hub. That
body does screw in however.

On the version before that, the hubshell was pressed
together in two pieces with a foil label over the seam and
the cassette body was stamped into the hub, not removable.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 3:56:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
You came late to the party, Tom.
Shimano New 600 6400 is a third-generation SIS system

(first 7400, then 6208, then 6400. Not only, but those
models represent the successive eras of SIS)

So far as group names go:
6400 was 600 Ultegra
6208 was 600 EX SIS
6207 was New 600 EX

As for freehubs specifically:
The 600 Ultegra name was used for 6400,6401 and 6402, which were 6/7 speed uniglide, 6/7 unglide+ 7 hyperglide, and 8 speed uniglide/hyperglide respectively. The 6/7 freehub shells were threaded far enough down to allow a 6 speed first sprocket to be where it needs to be, leaving a few extra threads past the sprocket face, but an axle spacer was supposed to be moved between left and right side of the hub when going between 6 and 7 speed.

FH-6207 and FH-6208 as far as I could tell, were identical except for the colour of one of the axle spacers on the left side (IIRC 6207 was black finish while 6208 was plain aluminum), and were offered in 5 and 6 speed variants. The core of the freehub bodies were identical, but the freehub shell, dust shield and axle spacer stack-ups were different.

-Luns

On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 9:16:49 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 8, 2021 at 3:03:53 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I it possible to disaasemble the cogs from the body, t hen flip the cogs and reinstall them as can be done with Uniglide Cassette cogs?

I think the keying of Hyperglide sprockets prevents flipping them. You could file out the keys, the same as if you were fitting hyperglide sprockets to a uniglide freehub. I don't know for sure if the backside of the tooth shape is suitable for being driven, but I'd expect that it is, in which case it'd work.

In the days of a 5 speed, yes, after the advent of 6 speed, no because they had lifts on them to make them shift via click shifting. The first cassettes/freehubs were 7 speed and by the time of the 8 speed the entire industry had shifting steps. I even have a set of tri-color Ultegra cranks and brakes from that time I just tripped over yesterday.

Symmetric Uniglide sprockets were common for 5, 6 and 7 speed cassettes, with Dura-Ace even rocking an 8-speed uniglide cassette before Hyperglide was introduced. Hyperglide became standard for 7-speed and up, but also trickled down, with 6-speed hyperglide freewheels, and cassettes being made.

-Luns

On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 12:22:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
The original Shimano cassette system was five speed.
I absolutely do NOT remember a 5 speed cassette. Shimano SIS wasn't even introduced until 1984 on the Dura Ace group and that was a 7 speed wasn't it? I remember 6 speed SIS but not on a freehub. Though perhaps the offroad group had that.

Cassettes existed before SIS. They were an option, not standard, and coexisted with freewheel hubs in the lineup up until the late '80s. My '86 Cannondale came with a 6-speed 6208 hub/freewheel, which only very recently, I replaced with a wheel I built up with a 6208 freehub. One of my riding buddies back in the day had an otherwise 6400 equipped bike, but it was spec'd with a 7-speed Sante freewheel (I don't know on what hub) instead of a 6400 freehub.

-Luns

On 6/10/2021 2:29 AM, Luns Tee wrote:
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 3:56:41 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
You came late to the party, Tom.
Shimano New 600 6400 is a third-generation SIS system

(first 7400, then 6208, then 6400. Not only, but those
models represent the successive eras of SIS)

So far as group names go:
6400 was 600 Ultegra
6208 was 600 EX SIS
6207 was New 600 EX

As for freehubs specifically:
The 600 Ultegra name was used for 6400,6401 and 6402, which were 6/7 speed uniglide, 6/7 unglide+ 7 hyperglide, and 8 speed uniglide/hyperglide respectively. The 6/7 freehub shells were threaded far enough down to allow a 6 speed first sprocket to be where it needs to be, leaving a few extra threads past the sprocket face, but an axle spacer was supposed to be moved between left and right side of the hub when going between 6 and 7 speed.

FH-6207 and FH-6208 as far as I could tell, were identical except for the colour of one of the axle spacers on the left side (IIRC 6207 was black finish while 6208 was plain aluminum), and were offered in 5 and 6 speed variants. The core of the freehub bodies were identical, but the freehub shell, dust shield and axle spacer stack-ups were different.

-Luns


Six speed Shimano cassette bodies are shorter than Sevens.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/10/2021 3:02 AM, Luns Tee wrote:
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 12:22:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
The original Shimano cassette system was five speed.
I absolutely do NOT remember a 5 speed cassette. Shimano SIS wasn't even introduced until 1984 on the Dura Ace group and that was a 7 speed wasn't it? I remember 6 speed SIS but not on a freehub. Though perhaps the offroad group had that.

Cassettes existed before SIS. They were an option, not standard, and coexisted with freewheel hubs in the lineup up until the late '80s. My '86 Cannondale came with a 6-speed 6208 hub/freewheel, which only very recently, I replaced with a wheel I built up with a 6208 freehub. One of my riding buddies back in the day had an otherwise 6400 equipped bike, but it was spec'd with a 7-speed Sante freewheel (I don't know on what hub) instead of a 6400 freehub.

-Luns


Santé also was offered AC/DC ( freewheel or cassette).

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 5:48:59 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 3:02 AM, Luns Tee wrote:
On Wednesday, June 9, 2021 at 12:22:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
The original Shimano cassette system was five speed.
I absolutely do NOT remember a 5 speed cassette. Shimano SIS wasn't even introduced until 1984 on the Dura Ace group and that was a 7 speed wasn't it? I remember 6 speed SIS but not on a freehub. Though perhaps the offroad group had that.

Cassettes existed before SIS. They were an option, not standard, and coexisted with freewheel hubs in the lineup up until the late '80s. My '86 Cannondale came with a 6-speed 6208 hub/freewheel, which only very recently, I replaced with a wheel I built up with a 6208 freehub. One of my riding buddies back in the day had an otherwise 6400 equipped bike, but it was spec'd with a 7-speed Sante freewheel (I don't know on what hub) instead of a 6400 freehub.

-Luns

Santé also was offered AC/DC ( freewheel or cassette).

Well, that fills in the entire line. I guess that my remembrance was of hyperglide since I have no memory of an unkeyed freehub.

On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 5:47:14 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
The 600 Ultegra name was used for 6400,6401 and 6402, which were 6/7 speed uniglide, 6/7 unglide+ 7 hyperglide, and 8 speed uniglide/hyperglide respectively. The 6/7 freehub shells were threaded far enough down to allow a 6 speed first sprocket to be where it needs to be, leaving a few extra threads past the sprocket face, but an axle spacer was supposed to be moved between left and right side of the hub when going between 6 and 7 speed.

FH-6207 and FH-6208 as far as I could tell, were identical except for the colour of one of the axle spacers on the left side (IIRC 6207 was black finish while 6208 was plain aluminum), and were offered in 5 and 6 speed variants. The core of the freehub bodies were identical, but the freehub shell, dust shield and axle spacer stack-ups were different.

-Luns

Six speed Shimano cassette bodies are shorter than Sevens.

For proper 6 speed bodies, yes, the outer shell (that sprockets stack up on) is shorter than for 7 speed; I was referring to support of 6 speed on 6/7 speed freehubs, so as not to imply that 6 and 7 are inherently the same thing.

That's just the outer shell though. The inner core of the freehub (the part that mates with the hub shell) was identical for 5 and 6 speed (at least for FH-6207/8) and in my experience 7 speed too. This means that if you need to replace a failed 6 speed freehub body, you can directly replace it with a 6/7 speed freehub body without affecting the OLD. This does not necessarily mean you can use a 7 speed cassette on said body; the first position sprocket can end up too close to the dropout.

The 5 speed freehub body shell was just long enough to enclose its core with only a thin dust shield. Going to 6 speeds, the shell was longer, allowing for either a better seal, or space for a hyperglide lockring with a thin dust shield similar to what was used for 5 speeds. The shell got even longer for 7 speed, allowing for better sealing together with hyperglide support..

-Luns

On 6/10/2021 10:58 AM, Luns Tee wrote:
On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 5:47:14 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
The 600 Ultegra name was used for 6400,6401 and 6402, which were 6/7 speed uniglide, 6/7 unglide+ 7 hyperglide, and 8 speed uniglide/hyperglide respectively. The 6/7 freehub shells were threaded far enough down to allow a 6 speed first sprocket to be where it needs to be, leaving a few extra threads past the sprocket face, but an axle spacer was supposed to be moved between left and right side of the hub when going between 6 and 7 speed.

FH-6207 and FH-6208 as far as I could tell, were identical except for the colour of one of the axle spacers on the left side (IIRC 6207 was black finish while 6208 was plain aluminum), and were offered in 5 and 6 speed variants. The core of the freehub bodies were identical, but the freehub shell, dust shield and axle spacer stack-ups were different.

-Luns

Six speed Shimano cassette bodies are shorter than Sevens.

For proper 6 speed bodies, yes, the outer shell (that sprockets stack up on) is shorter than for 7 speed; I was referring to support of 6 speed on 6/7 speed freehubs, so as not to imply that 6 and 7 are inherently the same thing.

That's just the outer shell though. The inner core of the freehub (the part that mates with the hub shell) was identical for 5 and 6 speed (at least for FH-6207/8) and in my experience 7 speed too. This means that if you need to replace a failed 6 speed freehub body, you can directly replace it with a 6/7 speed freehub body without affecting the OLD. This does not necessarily mean you can use a 7 speed cassette on said body; the first position sprocket can end up too close to the dropout.

The 5 speed freehub body shell was just long enough to enclose its core with only a thin dust shield. Going to 6 speeds, the shell was longer, allowing for either a better seal, or space for a hyperglide lockring with a thin dust shield similar to what was used for 5 speeds. The shell got even longer for 7 speed, allowing for better sealing together with hyperglide support.

-Luns


Yes, very clear overview.
Modern 8+ CS bodies can mount in place of the seven or six
version.

I'm not sure that any 5 cassette hub supported that hub-body
interface format (just don't know either way)

The original HG bodies were double threaded to accept both
UG and HG cassettes.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 11:18:34 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/10/2021 10:58 AM, Luns Tee wrote:
For proper 6 speed bodies, yes, the outer shell (that sprockets stack up on) is shorter than for 7 speed; I was referring to support of 6 speed on 6/7 speed freehubs, so as not to imply that 6 and 7 are inherently the same thing.

That's just the outer shell though. The inner core of the freehub (the part that mates with the hub shell) was identical for 5 and 6 speed (at least for FH-6207/8) and in my experience 7 speed too. This means that if you need to replace a failed 6 speed freehub body, you can directly replace it with a 6/7 speed freehub body without affecting the OLD. This does not necessarily mean you can use a 7 speed cassette on said body; the first position sprocket can end up too close to the dropout.

The 5 speed freehub body shell was just long enough to enclose its core with only a thin dust shield. Going to 6 speeds, the shell was longer, allowing for either a better seal, or space for a hyperglide lockring with a thin dust shield similar to what was used for 5 speeds. The shell got even longer for 7 speed, allowing for better sealing together with hyperglide support.

-Luns

Yes, very clear overview.
Modern 8+ CS bodies can mount in place of the seven or six
version.

Indeed. Seal and corresponding cone and/or axle spacers often have to be changed together with the body, but it's sometimes avoidable. The 8HG/UG-speed body from 6402 will mate fine with the cone and seal used in the 6/7UG 6400 hub, although the spacer between the cone and locknut is 0.7mm thicker for 8 speed usage.

Going between 6 and 7 speed, the 7HG/UG body from the FH-HG50 hub is a perfect replacement for FH-6207/8 and 1050, with its metal dust cap having an identical seal diameter as the plastic dust shield it replaces.

I'm not sure that any 5 cassette hub supported that hub-body
interface format (just don't know either way)

https://si.shimano.com/api/publish/s...208-5-0733.pdf

The original HG bodies were double threaded to accept both
UG and HG cassettes.

Yep.

-Luns