Road Discs

On 2017-09-11 12:50, wrote:
On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 9:43:20 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:

Ah, finally, progress! Thanks, I didn't know that. However,
doesn't Campagnolo stuff have price levels like Gucci apparel?

-- Regards, Joerg


Only if you buy your Campagnolo from USA stores. For good prices on
Campagnolo, order from German, France, Britain internet shops. Not
much different than Shimano prices. And Shimano is much cheaper from
Europe too. If you buy bike parts from the USA, you are way over
spending.


I found it's quite ok if bought at large discount stores such as Jenson
and Nashbar or via EBay.

The topper recently was Mr.Tuffy tire liner for road bikes. $1.25 for a
pair plus $3.99 shipping. Ok, that was an auction but was new and came
from a bike place.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-09-11 12:56, wrote:

[...]

Tom I ride a cross bike with disk brakes off road, it doesn't get
bumpier that that even here in pancake flat Netherlands.


Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y38JzV-ueXI


We don't have any mountains that is true but I live in the hilly part
of the Netherlands, Joerg is always talking about and close to
Belgium where they have the worst roads.


Yes, you have a mountain. Drielandenpunt and it's 321.5m. The Dutch
insisted that the half meter was always mentioned.


... However the real famous
mountains are only one day drive away. One or two times a year I
spend a week there and that for almost 30 years so I did my share of
climbing and descending.

He, look even without any finger on the brakes:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ztXTQaSqdl7RRs8B3


Hey, my sister participated in the Maratona D'les Dolomites.


Even on the descent of the Stelvio I and many others don't need more
than two fingers on the brake lever (rimbrakes):

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6yb8NpaAhgHp9s2w2

So why you replaced your disk brakes with V brakes remains a mystery
to me.


Ever since I rode a bike with disc brakes for the first time I never
looked back and any new bikes must have discs or I won't buy.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 9/11/2017 7:54 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 5:11:08 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 9/9/2017 3:28 PM, jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

At one place I owned I installed a device that automatically closes the
garage door after three minutes unless you disable it. I used the timer
for the light bulbs on the garage door opener to trigger a relay that
shorted the open/close terminals momentarily. I need to build another
one since I've done the same thing as you on occasion.

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring
sport riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a
nice bike that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model
will not be available until December -- which really means that I get to
ride it in dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake
model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the
Roubaix and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group
to ask because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying
your last nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a
dry weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There
would be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start
with. I'm not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance
issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes
-- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the
way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

I SPIT on rim brakes.

Go for a titanium frame with disc brakes. https://www.deanbikes.com/

Yeah, that's a really great idea when just the couplers on that bike are $900. For my entire totally reconditioned Pinarello I'll have less with new Campy wheels and a record group.

Jay is not price-sensitive. All he has to do is bill a few more hours to
pay for a Dean Titanium. And the couplers are not required.


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On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 9:39:01 AM UTC-7, Doug Landau wrote:
On Saturday, September 9, 2017 at 3:28:59 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

-- Jay Beattie.

FATE has given you another chance to redeem yourself

http://bikesdirect.com/products/road....htm#discbrake

Gravity Zilla $699

On 9/11/2017 2:35 PM, Doug Landau wrote:

snip

Gravity Zilla $699

I'd wait for bikesdirect to get their Ultegra Titanium disc road bikes
back in stock. They sell out very fast since most serious riders are
moving from carbon fiber to titanium now. Then get a CroMo disc fork.

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/disc-brake-roadbikes/centuryelt-ti-discbrake-road-ltd.html.



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On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 2:08:35 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-11 12:56, wrote:

[...]

Tom I ride a cross bike with disk brakes off road, it doesn't get
bumpier that that even here in pancake flat Netherlands.


Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y38JzV-ueXI


We don't have any mountains that is true but I live in the hilly part
of the Netherlands, Joerg is always talking about and close to
Belgium where they have the worst roads.


Yes, you have a mountain. Drielandenpunt and it's 321.5m. The Dutch
insisted that the half meter was always mentioned.


... However the real famous
mountains are only one day drive away. One or two times a year I
spend a week there and that for almost 30 years so I did my share of
climbing and descending.

He, look even without any finger on the brakes:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ztXTQaSqdl7RRs8B3


Hey, my sister participated in the Maratona D'les Dolomites.


Even on the descent of the Stelvio I and many others don't need more
than two fingers on the brake lever (rimbrakes):

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6yb8NpaAhgHp9s2w2

So why you replaced your disk brakes with V brakes remains a mystery
to me.


Ever since I rode a bike with disc brakes for the first time I never
looked back and any new bikes must have discs or I won't buy.

Your youTube video gives a rough idea of an off-road ride. Now give it three times the descent and using a CX bike you have NO SUSPENSION. You have to keep yourself back on the saddle with pressure on the bars by your hands. On a flat bar bike such as the one you should it's plain that you can not have one or two fingers on the levers but have your entire hand over the levers with your palms pressing yourself back onto the saddle.

This idea that lou has of "riding over a bump" seems to ignore the fact that you hit a bump at high speed and there is a sudden jar as you strike the bump. Precisely how do you ride "over" such a bump. Looking over the edge of the rocky parts of your video down the side of the mountain is the sort of descent I crashed on. Though the trail wasn't covered with stones but instead 3-6" deep ditches running 70 or 80 degrees to the line of travel.

I could no doubt ride down the Stelvio barely touching the brakes on a rim brake bike. I ride down the north side of Mt Diablo and touch the brakes very seldom and can pass most people including the Chris Froome wannabes. I have watched them disappear into my rear view sunglasses mounted mirror trying to keep up. Not because I'm attempting to drop them but because they don't know how to ride around other people and are dangerous. I ride down several of the other hills in the area without even touching the brakes as the speed goes above 40 mph.

I have raced motorcycles semi-professionally and was a professional flat track mechanic. I have a great deal better knowledge of cornering than most people. The sheer egotism of people that could say that someone they don't know anything about doesn't know how to ride is pretty funny.

I wouldn't have thought to have criticized lou's knowledge of riding until he made comments like he has.

You like disk brakes and that's fine. I suggest that if you ride them much on a road bike you will soon change your mind.

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 3:10:11 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 9/11/2017 2:35 PM, Doug Landau wrote:

snip

Gravity Zilla $699

I'd wait for bikesdirect to get their Ultegra Titanium disc road bikes
back in stock. They sell out very fast since most serious riders are
moving from carbon fiber to titanium now. Then get a CroMo disc fork.

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/disc-brake-roadbikes/centuryelt-ti-discbrake-road-ltd.html.

Remember what I said about titanium bikes being liable to crack around the weld joints. This appears to happen very rapidly or not at all. But definitely look for it before your rides.

I had both a Colnago Bi-Titan and another Colnago titanium bike of standard build. Both of them were pretty damn stiff. So of course I went to carbon fiber which made those bikes feel like rubber bands. My Time Edge could NOT be ridden off of a smooth race track.

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 2:08:35 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-09-11 12:56, wrote:

[...]

Tom I ride a cross bike with disk brakes off road, it doesn't get
bumpier that that even here in pancake flat Netherlands.


Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y38JzV-ueXI


We don't have any mountains that is true but I live in the hilly part
of the Netherlands, Joerg is always talking about and close to
Belgium where they have the worst roads.


Yes, you have a mountain. Drielandenpunt and it's 321.5m. The Dutch
insisted that the half meter was always mentioned.


... However the real famous
mountains are only one day drive away. One or two times a year I
spend a week there and that for almost 30 years so I did my share of
climbing and descending.

He, look even without any finger on the brakes:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ztXTQaSqdl7RRs8B3


Hey, my sister participated in the Maratona D'les Dolomites.


Even on the descent of the Stelvio I and many others don't need more
than two fingers on the brake lever (rimbrakes):

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6yb8NpaAhgHp9s2w2

So why you replaced your disk brakes with V brakes remains a mystery
to me.


Ever since I rode a bike with disc brakes for the first time I never
looked back and any new bikes must have discs or I won't buy.


My two surviving bikes have discs -- one mechanical (commuter) and one hydraulic (gravel). In dry weather on the road, hydraulic brakes are overkill -- and in fact, I prefer dual pivots in dry weather because they are simple, work well and never drag unless I break a spoke, which is rare.

Rim brakes are lighter, simpler (no bleeding, etc.), cheaper (pad costs), less noisy and great at stopping. Discs are better in wet weather, in slop and trail descending where braking is used to steer and grades are above 30%.. They certainly make sense on a foul weather bike or mountain bike.

My main reason for having a disc commuter is rim wear. Six months of riding in the rain will wear out rims after a few years (or less). In the 30 years of commuting before getting discs, I stopped just fine but wore out rims..

-- Jay Beattie.

On 9/11/2017 8:52 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 9:11:16 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 9/9/2017 5:28 PM, jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring sport riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a nice bike that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model will not be available until December -- which really means that I get to ride it in dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the Roubaix and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group to ask because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying your last nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a dry weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There would be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start with. I'm not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes -- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

No suggestion on your specific question but speaking as an
Industry Professional, I think my record for selling one
customer his "final perfect bike to last the rest of my
life" is six bicycles, 3 or 4 is amazingly common. Many of
those guys will be back again too.

So much of this is just market-driven angst. Discs have a nice feel and are powerful and do work better in the rain, but that is different from rim brakes being inadequate or dangerous.

People develop a preference and then the last-thing becomes unworkable or dangerous. "I used to ride 23mm tires, but 25s are so much more positive. You'll die riding 23mm tires!" Then I think, "didn't I race on 19mm and 21mm?"

I was talking to my son yesterday, and he rides an Emonda with rim brakes and CF wheels. So, I asked him "where did you ride today," and he says Big Cottonwood with some side routes and a climb on the way home -- maybe 6,000 -7,000 feet of climbing and some seriously steep descending on the side routes. Any problems? No. His friends use rim brakes, and they do ridiculous amounts of climbing -- one just did 31,000 feet in a day (the whole Everest thing). And then I think back on my decades of rim brake experience and wonder why I'm even worried -- except for the anxiety caused by choices. Not that discs would be super-sweet and maybe even reduce some hand fatigue, but the idea that they are necessary or that rim brakes are dangerous is kind of out there.


-- Jay Beattie.

Jay, I think you've answered your own question well and completely. For
a dry-weather fast on-road bike, rim brakes will do the job. Always
have. I like the disks on my commuter too - though they squeak a lot -
but that's a completely different type of riding (in Oregon, anyway).

I sense your original question really was "am I missing anything?" I'd
say mostly not.

The one thing I can think of is that with disks, you can often fit
really large tires, in case you want to take your fast road bike on a
gravel-grinder race some day. Not much to base a purchase on, unless
you really have an itch for gravel racing.

Sorry about your double bike loss.

Mark J.

On Monday, September 11, 2017 at 2:25:56 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 9/11/2017 7:54 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, September 10, 2017 at 5:11:08 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 9/9/2017 3:28 PM, jbeattie wrote:
So, my SuperSix was crushed in a roof-rack accident and last weak my
Roubaix was stolen out of the garage that I left open all night. I've
done that many times -- apparently one too many. I'm down to a gravel
bike and my commuter -- the reborn warranty CAADX (which is a great bike).

At one place I owned I installed a device that automatically closes the
garage door after three minutes unless you disable it. I used the timer
for the light bulbs on the garage door opener to trigger a relay that
shorted the open/close terminals momentarily. I need to build another
one since I've done the same thing as you on occasion.

The gravel bike is a pig, but I'll use that for fall/winter/spring
sport riding. I want a fast bike, though -- and I've got a line on a
nice bike that I can get with rim brakes or discs, but the disc model
will not be available until December -- which really means that I get to
ride it in dry weather some time around May. I can get a rim brake
model by the end of the month.

All the shops are pushing discs, and I did like the discs on the
Roubaix and on my gravel bike. I know this is absolutely the wrong group
to ask because it's wall-to-wall curmudgeons, but if you were buying
your last nice road bike, would you go rim brakes or discs? It will be a
dry weather bike or ridden in the rain only because of bad luck. There
would be no real weight penalty because the bike is so light to start
with. I'm not aero, so I don't care about the aero penalty with discs.

My concern with getting rim brakes is not really even a performance
issue because in dry weather, I've never had a problem with rim brakes
-- but to listen to the guys at the local shop, rim brakes are going the
way of the dodo. I'm worried about buying an antique!

I SPIT on rim brakes.

Go for a titanium frame with disc brakes. https://www.deanbikes.com/

Yeah, that's a really great idea when just the couplers on that bike are $900. For my entire totally reconditioned Pinarello I'll have less with new Campy wheels and a record group.

Jay is not price-sensitive. All he has to do is bill a few more hours to
pay for a Dean Titanium. And the couplers are not required.

Even if I were made of money, I wouldn't spend a ton on a bike. I'm getting a pro deal on my next bike because I do work for the manufacturer -- and its a great bike. It will be my designated fast bike (or as-fast-as-I-get bike). It's replacing my SuperSix, RIP.

-- Jay Beattie.