My CF Adventure

On Mar 17, 9:07 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Mar 17, 2:59 am, Dan O wrote:



On Mar 16, 9:15 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Mar 16, 3:59 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:

So what explains the cost of custom steel frames? A custom steel
frame goes for $2-3K, and more than that for some builders -- e.g.
Vanilla here in PDX. Vanilla's generic Speedvagen goes for $3-4K.
Custom Vanilla goes for $4-5K, frame and fork. I was quoted well
under $3K for a close-out 2012 Roubaix with all Ultegra. That's a
whole bike with nice components. I think that is a relative bargain --
and if it breaks, I get a new one . . . for life, and not for a year.
And I don't have to wait five years for delivery, which is the waiting
time for a custom Vanilla. I would also end up with a lighter,
stiffer and better tuned frame. You just can't customize steel in the
same way as you can CF or even hydroformed aluminum.

Hmm. I think that last sentence is precisely backwards.

What you can do with CF or hydroformed aluminum is mass produce bikes
with specially shaped tubes. But to me, "custom" means built to fit
the exact desires of the individual customer. That's where steel
excels, at least within its range of capabilities. A smart guy with
an oxyacetylene set and some simple tools can build a steel bike to
fit almost any person and almost any intended application.

IOW, if you want a special bike to fit a 4'9" woman and let her carry
100 pounds of ceramic vases over the front wheel, it's going to have
to be steel. If you have 1000 women that size who want the same exact
thing, you can begin negotiating with a Chinese company to have them
done in hydroformed aluminum - but even 1000 will be high priced, due
to tooling costs.

I worked for a manufacturer of CFRP orthoses. Every single piece out
the door *absolutely* and finely custom fitted to order.

Of course that's possible. It would also have been possible to make
them out of hydroformed (or otherwise formed) aluminum. But at what
cost per unit?

What did those orthoses cost, and how did their shapes' complexity and
precision compare with that of a typical bike frame? My bet is the
shapes were much simpler, and still very expensive.


The shapes were as complex as the lower human body in all its
deviance, precision exacting (by definition of the product! - size and
shape specification was a cyclical multi-stage process, orthoses were
still often returned for very fine adjustments, and the shop also did
repairs), and the cost, IIRC, was ~three figures (in the 1990's...
quick google indicates CFRP full KFO still available for three
figures).

On 3/16/2013 11:15 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Mar 16, 3:59 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:

So what explains the cost of custom steel frames? A custom steel
frame goes for $2-3K, and more than that for some builders -- e.g.
Vanilla here in PDX. Vanilla's generic Speedvagen goes for $3-4K.
Custom Vanilla goes for $4-5K, frame and fork. I was quoted well
under $3K for a close-out 2012 Roubaix with all Ultegra. That's a
whole bike with nice components. I think that is a relative bargain --
and if it breaks, I get a new one . . . for life, and not for a year.
And I don't have to wait five years for delivery, which is the waiting
time for a custom Vanilla. I would also end up with a lighter,
stiffer and better tuned frame. You just can't customize steel in the
same way as you can CF or even hydroformed aluminum.

Hmm. I think that last sentence is precisely backwards.

What you can do with CF or hydroformed aluminum is mass produce bikes
with specially shaped tubes. But to me, "custom" means built to fit
the exact desires of the individual customer. That's where steel
excels, at least within its range of capabilities. A smart guy with
an oxyacetylene set and some simple tools can build a steel bike to
fit almost any person and almost any intended application.

IOW, if you want a special bike to fit a 4'9" woman and let her carry
100 pounds of ceramic vases over the front wheel, it's going to have
to be steel. If you have 1000 women that size who want the same exact
thing, you can begin negotiating with a Chinese company to have them
done in hydroformed aluminum - but even 1000 will be high priced, due
to tooling costs.

It's true that fine custom steel frames are currently expensive. I
don't think custom steel has to be as expensive as it is, though. I
think the prices are driven partly by the trendiness (in certain
quarters) and by the tendency to make these bikes as objets d'art. By
keeping fancy lugwork to a minimum (or using MIG welding) and doing
only as much finishing as needed for good appearance at ten feet, I
think a good steel frame could be sold for much less than $1000. Even
with American labor.

It's true it wouldn't be as light and stiff as a modern aluminum or CF
bike. But it could be less fragile, and be actually "custom" as well,
for those with unusual needs.

- Frank Krygowski


Not inherently expensive. Full custom at $1500 from Waterford:

http://waterfordbikes.com/w/ordering/price-list/

p.s. Not some guy in a garage either.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mar 17, 10:45 am, Dan O wrote:
On Mar 17, 9:07 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:



On Mar 17, 2:59 am, Dan O wrote:

On Mar 16, 9:15 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Mar 16, 3:59 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:

So what explains the cost of custom steel frames? A custom steel
frame goes for $2-3K, and more than that for some builders -- e.g.
Vanilla here in PDX. Vanilla's generic Speedvagen goes for $3-4K.
Custom Vanilla goes for $4-5K, frame and fork. I was quoted well
under $3K for a close-out 2012 Roubaix with all Ultegra. That's a
whole bike with nice components. I think that is a relative bargain --
and if it breaks, I get a new one . . . for life, and not for a year.
And I don't have to wait five years for delivery, which is the waiting
time for a custom Vanilla. I would also end up with a lighter,
stiffer and better tuned frame. You just can't customize steel in the
same way as you can CF or even hydroformed aluminum.

Hmm. I think that last sentence is precisely backwards.

What you can do with CF or hydroformed aluminum is mass produce bikes
with specially shaped tubes. But to me, "custom" means built to fit
the exact desires of the individual customer. That's where steel
excels, at least within its range of capabilities. A smart guy with
an oxyacetylene set and some simple tools can build a steel bike to
fit almost any person and almost any intended application.

IOW, if you want a special bike to fit a 4'9" woman and let her carry
100 pounds of ceramic vases over the front wheel, it's going to have
to be steel. If you have 1000 women that size who want the same exact
thing, you can begin negotiating with a Chinese company to have them
done in hydroformed aluminum - but even 1000 will be high priced, due
to tooling costs.

I worked for a manufacturer of CFRP orthoses. Every single piece out
the door *absolutely* and finely custom fitted to order.

Of course that's possible. It would also have been possible to make
them out of hydroformed (or otherwise formed) aluminum. But at what
cost per unit?

What did those orthoses cost, and how did their shapes' complexity and
precision compare with that of a typical bike frame? My bet is the
shapes were much simpler, and still very expensive.

The shapes were as complex as the lower human body in all its
deviance, precision exacting (by definition of the product! - size and
shape specification was a cyclical multi-stage process, orthoses were
still often returned for very fine adjustments, and the shop also did
repairs), and the cost, IIRC, was ~three figures (in the 1990's...
quick google indicates CFRP full KFO still available for three
figures).

Understand, I like steel because _I_ can fabricate things with it
myself (ever since I was thirteen years old).

I think the reason custom bike frames are so expensive is low volume,
builders still gotta make a living, and the market is largely
expendable income seeking cachet.

I think I kind of like this guy: http://www.framebones.com/OM.html
(note the battery headlight :-)

On Sunday, March 17, 2013 3:04:33 PM UTC-4, Dan O wrote:
On Mar 17, 10:45 am, Dan O wrote:

On Mar 17, 9:07 am, Frank Krygowski wrote:







On Mar 17, 2:59 am, Dan O wrote:



On Mar 16, 9:15 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:



On Mar 16, 3:59 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:



So what explains the cost of custom steel frames? A custom steel

frame goes for $2-3K, and more than that for some builders -- e.g.

Vanilla here in PDX. Vanilla's generic Speedvagen goes for $3-4K.

Custom Vanilla goes for $4-5K, frame and fork. I was quoted well

under $3K for a close-out 2012 Roubaix with all Ultegra. That's a

whole bike with nice components. I think that is a relative bargain --

and if it breaks, I get a new one . . . for life, and not for a year.

And I don't have to wait five years for delivery, which is the waiting

time for a custom Vanilla. I would also end up with a lighter,

stiffer and better tuned frame. You just can't customize steel in the

same way as you can CF or even hydroformed aluminum.



Hmm. I think that last sentence is precisely backwards.



What you can do with CF or hydroformed aluminum is mass produce bikes

with specially shaped tubes. But to me, "custom" means built to fit

the exact desires of the individual customer. That's where steel

excels, at least within its range of capabilities. A smart guy with

an oxyacetylene set and some simple tools can build a steel bike to

fit almost any person and almost any intended application.



IOW, if you want a special bike to fit a 4'9" woman and let her carry

100 pounds of ceramic vases over the front wheel, it's going to have

to be steel. If you have 1000 women that size who want the same exact

thing, you can begin negotiating with a Chinese company to have them

done in hydroformed aluminum - but even 1000 will be high priced, due

to tooling costs.



I worked for a manufacturer of CFRP orthoses. Every single piece out

the door *absolutely* and finely custom fitted to order.



Of course that's possible. It would also have been possible to make

them out of hydroformed (or otherwise formed) aluminum. But at what

cost per unit?



What did those orthoses cost, and how did their shapes' complexity and

precision compare with that of a typical bike frame? My bet is the

shapes were much simpler, and still very expensive.



The shapes were as complex as the lower human body in all its

deviance, precision exacting (by definition of the product! - size and

shape specification was a cyclical multi-stage process, orthoses were

still often returned for very fine adjustments, and the shop also did

repairs), and the cost, IIRC, was ~three figures (in the 1990's...

quick google indicates CFRP full KFO still available for three

figures).



Understand, I like steel because _I_ can fabricate things with it

myself (ever since I was thirteen years old).



I think the reason custom bike frames are so expensive is low volume,

builders still gotta make a living, and the market is largely

expendable income seeking cachet.



I think I kind of like this guy: http://www.framebones.com/OM.html

(note the battery headlight :-)

Also, if a custom frame is too low in price alot of people will have the idea that the quality must be low too. Perception drives prices too.

Cheers

On 17/03/13 15:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Mar 16, 3:59 pm, Jay wrote:

So what explains the cost of custom steel frames? A custom steel
frame goes for $2-3K, and more than that for some builders -- e.g.
Vanilla here in PDX. Vanilla's generic Speedvagen goes for $3-4K.
Custom Vanilla goes for $4-5K, frame and fork. I was quoted well
under $3K for a close-out 2012 Roubaix with all Ultegra. That's a
whole bike with nice components. I think that is a relative bargain --
and if it breaks, I get a new one . . . for life, and not for a year.
And I don't have to wait five years for delivery, which is the waiting
time for a custom Vanilla. I would also end up with a lighter,
stiffer and better tuned frame. You just can't customize steel in the
same way as you can CF or even hydroformed aluminum.

Hmm. I think that last sentence is precisely backwards.

What you can do with CF or hydroformed aluminum is mass produce bikes
with specially shaped tubes. But to me, "custom" means built to fit
the exact desires of the individual customer. That's where steel
excels, at least within its range of capabilities. A smart guy with
an oxyacetylene set and some simple tools can build a steel bike to
fit almost any person and almost any intended application.

IOW, if you want a special bike to fit a 4'9" woman and let her carry
100 pounds of ceramic vases over the front wheel, it's going to have
to be steel. If you have 1000 women that size who want the same exact
thing, you can begin negotiating with a Chinese company to have them
done in hydroformed aluminum - but even 1000 will be high priced, due
to tooling costs.

It's true that fine custom steel frames are currently expensive. I
don't think custom steel has to be as expensive as it is, though. I
think the prices are driven partly by the trendiness (in certain
quarters) and by the tendency to make these bikes as objets d'art. By
keeping fancy lugwork to a minimum (or using MIG welding) and doing
only as much finishing as needed for good appearance at ten feet, I
think a good steel frame could be sold for much less than $1000. Even
with American labor.

I thought most steel frames that were not lugged were welded with a TIG
welder.

It's true it wouldn't be as light and stiff as a modern aluminum or CF
bike. But it could be less fragile, and be actually "custom" as well,
for those with unusual needs.

I'm sure CFRP frame manufacturers could make a robust CFRP frame, if
they added about 700 grams of material so the weight was comparable with
a steel frame.

--
JS

http://waterfordbikes.com/w/ordering/price-list/

p.s. Not some guy in a garage either.

Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/

Open every day since 1 April, 1971

WF extras include forks/dropout/seat tube ? a fork is 600 ?

.....not tube picky but beeware

John's quote is what I heard around 350 for CM to spec

Have yawl been to Waterford ? do tell !

On 3/17/2013 6:49 PM, datakoll wrote:


http://waterfordbikes.com/w/ordering/price-list/

p.s. Not some guy in a garage either.

Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/

Open every day since 1 April, 1971

WF extras include forks/dropout/seat tube ? a fork is 600 ?

....not tube picky but beeware

John's quote is what I heard around 350 for CM to spec

Have yawl been to Waterford ? do tell !


Waterford custom cast crown fork is $375 with stainless
ends; choice of color, threaded or threadless, many options.

Yeah, they are nearby. Go east to my brother's house, hang a
right. Only about 45 minutes.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

does WF serve coffee and Danish ?

On Mar 17, 5:59*pm, James wrote:
On 17/03/13 15:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:









On Mar 16, 3:59 pm, Jay *wrote:

So what explains the cost of custom steel frames? *A custom steel
frame goes for $2-3K, and more than that for some builders -- e.g.
Vanilla here in PDX. *Vanilla's generic Speedvagen goes for $3-4K.
Custom Vanilla goes for $4-5K, frame and fork. *I was quoted well
under $3K for a close-out 2012 Roubaix with all Ultegra. That's a
whole bike with nice components. I think that is a relative bargain --
and if it breaks, I get a new one . . . for life, and not for a year.
And I don't have to wait five years for delivery, which is the waiting
time for a custom Vanilla. *I would also end up with a lighter,
stiffer and better tuned frame. *You just can't customize steel in the
same way as you can CF or even hydroformed aluminum.

Hmm. *I think that last sentence is precisely backwards.

What you can do with CF or hydroformed aluminum is mass produce bikes
with specially shaped tubes. *But to me, "custom" means built to fit
the exact desires of the individual customer. That's where steel
excels, at least within its range of capabilities. *A smart guy with
an oxyacetylene set and some simple tools can build a steel bike to
fit almost any person and almost any intended application.

IOW, if you want a special bike to fit a 4'9" woman and let her carry
100 pounds of ceramic vases over the front wheel, it's going to have
to be steel. *If you have 1000 women that size who want the same exact
thing, you can begin negotiating with a Chinese company to have them
done in hydroformed aluminum - but even 1000 will be high priced, due
to tooling costs.

It's true that fine custom steel frames are currently expensive. *I
don't think custom steel has to be as expensive as it is, though. *I
think the prices are driven partly by the trendiness (in certain
quarters) and by the tendency to make these bikes as objets d'art. *By
keeping fancy lugwork to a minimum (or using MIG welding) and doing
only as much finishing as needed for good appearance at ten feet, I
think a good steel frame could be sold for much less than $1000. *Even
with American labor.

I thought most steel frames that were not lugged were welded with a TIG
welder.

Yes, you're right. My mistake, sorry.


It's true it wouldn't be as light and stiff as a modern aluminum or CF
bike. *But it could be less fragile, and be actually "custom" as well,
for those with unusual needs.

I'm sure CFRP frame manufacturers could make a robust CFRP frame, if
they added about 700 grams of material so the weight was comparable with
a steel frame.

Yes, or even less than 700 grams. Part (only part) of the problem is
that they're not competing with steel frames; they're competing with
other CF frames, in a "lightest is best" marketplace advertising
contest.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, March 17, 2013 8:32:26 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Mar 17, 5:59*pm, James wrote:

On 17/03/13 15:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:



















On Mar 16, 3:59 pm, Jay *wrote:



So what explains the cost of custom steel frames? *A custom steel

frame goes for $2-3K, and more than that for some builders -- e.g.

Vanilla here in PDX. *Vanilla's generic Speedvagen goes for $3-4K.

Custom Vanilla goes for $4-5K, frame and fork. *I was quoted well

under $3K for a close-out 2012 Roubaix with all Ultegra. That's a

whole bike with nice components. I think that is a relative bargain --

and if it breaks, I get a new one . . . for life, and not for a year..

And I don't have to wait five years for delivery, which is the waiting

time for a custom Vanilla. *I would also end up with a lighter,

stiffer and better tuned frame. *You just can't customize steel in the

same way as you can CF or even hydroformed aluminum.



Hmm. *I think that last sentence is precisely backwards.



What you can do with CF or hydroformed aluminum is mass produce bikes

with specially shaped tubes. *But to me, "custom" means built to fit

the exact desires of the individual customer. That's where steel

excels, at least within its range of capabilities. *A smart guy with

an oxyacetylene set and some simple tools can build a steel bike to

fit almost any person and almost any intended application.



IOW, if you want a special bike to fit a 4'9" woman and let her carry

100 pounds of ceramic vases over the front wheel, it's going to have

to be steel. *If you have 1000 women that size who want the same exact

thing, you can begin negotiating with a Chinese company to have them

done in hydroformed aluminum - but even 1000 will be high priced, due

to tooling costs.



It's true that fine custom steel frames are currently expensive. *I

don't think custom steel has to be as expensive as it is, though. *I

think the prices are driven partly by the trendiness (in certain

quarters) and by the tendency to make these bikes as objets d'art. *By

keeping fancy lugwork to a minimum (or using MIG welding) and doing

only as much finishing as needed for good appearance at ten feet, I

think a good steel frame could be sold for much less than $1000. *Even

with American labor.



I thought most steel frames that were not lugged were welded with a TIG

welder.



Yes, you're right. My mistake, sorry.





It's true it wouldn't be as light and stiff as a modern aluminum or CF

bike. *But it could be less fragile, and be actually "custom" as well,

for those with unusual needs.



I'm sure CFRP frame manufacturers could make a robust CFRP frame, if

they added about 700 grams of material so the weight was comparable with

a steel frame.



Yes, or even less than 700 grams. Part (only part) of the problem is

that they're not competing with steel frames; they're competing with

other CF frames, in a "lightest is best" marketplace advertising

contest.



- Frank Krygowski

.......

I dunno Frank. maybe first coupla years light light lighter

but then crack crack crack....so we ruminate abt it n see

BRAND NAME STABILITY as would the makers of thalidomyd rip us off ?