A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Techniques
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Build it and they will come - but where are they?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old April 21st 18, 01:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,271
Default Build it and they will come - but where are they?

What we've heard: "Build it and they will come." That is, separate the
bikes from the cars with paint; or better, with flexible poles; or even
better with parked cars, and bicycle riding will surge. People will
leave their cars at home, and America will become Amsterdam. Or at
least, Amsterdamish.

What else we've heard: "It's working! After adding just one bike lane,
my little town had a 100% increase in bike mode share! It went from 0.2%
to 0.4% and 0.4% is really good for America!!"

What the data show:
https://cyclingindustry.news/wp-cont...2018/04/t2.jpg

That's from
https://cyclingindustry.news/townley...bike-business/

They're building it, and the design consultants are getting wealthy. But
"they" don't seem to be coming.

--
- Frank Krygowski
Ads
  #2  
Old April 21st 18, 06:17 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,721
Default Build it and they will come - but where are they?

On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 1:21:56 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
What we've heard: "Build it and they will come." That is, separate the
bikes from the cars with paint; or better, with flexible poles; or even
better with parked cars, and bicycle riding will surge. People will
leave their cars at home, and America will become Amsterdam. Or at
least, Amsterdamish.

What else we've heard: "It's working! After adding just one bike lane,
my little town had a 100% increase in bike mode share! It went from 0.2%
to 0.4% and 0.4% is really good for America!!"

What the data show:
https://cyclingindustry.news/wp-cont...2018/04/t2.jpg

That's from
https://cyclingindustry.news/townley...bike-business/

They're building it, and the design consultants are getting wealthy. But
"they" don't seem to be coming.

--
- Frank Krygowski


Okay, so Americans won't ride on the road with the cars, and they won't ride in cycle lanes "protected" from cars. So, perhaps, Americans just don't want to cycle, or their infrastructure is already so far developed in favoring the automobile that they're right not to cycle, because it's impossible..

The question is, Franki-boy: Why should your underlying assumption that cycling is superior to driving have any greater validity than their underlying assumption that an automobile is a necessity of life? Do you have an answer that doesn't rely on some faith-substitute, like Gaia-worship?

Andre Jute
Carfree for a generation now. I practice what I preach.
  #3  
Old April 21st 18, 12:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default Build it and they will come - but where are they?

On Friday, April 20, 2018 at 8:21:56 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
What we've heard: "Build it and they will come." That is, separate the
bikes from the cars with paint; or better, with flexible poles; or even
better with parked cars, and bicycle riding will surge. People will
leave their cars at home, and America will become Amsterdam. Or at
least, Amsterdamish.

What else we've heard: "It's working! After adding just one bike lane,
my little town had a 100% increase in bike mode share! It went from 0.2%
to 0.4% and 0.4% is really good for America!!"

What the data show:
https://cyclingindustry.news/wp-cont...2018/04/t2.jpg

That's from
https://cyclingindustry.news/townley...bike-business/

They're building it, and the design consultants are getting wealthy. But
"they" don't seem to be coming.

--
- Frank Krygowski


NYC has been counting the number of people entering and leaving its central business district (Manhattan below 60th St) annually for many years. Bikes have been included since the mid 1990's. There are mechanical counters for both bikes and vehicles on the bridges. Here are the inbound rush hour readings for bikes and vehicles for 2016 - the latest year.

Brooklyn Bridge Bikes(8-9am, 9-10am): 306, 261
Brooklyn Bridge Vehicles(8-9am, 9-10am): 2,553, 2,532
Brooklyn Bridge Pct Bikes(8-9am, 9-10am): 11.99%, 10.31%

Manhattan Bridge Bikes(8-9am, 9-10am): 438, 401
Manhattan Bridge Vehicles(8-9am, 9-10am): 1,673, 1,369
Manhattan Bridge Pct Bikes(8-9am, 9-10am): 26.18%, 29.29%

Williamsburg Bridge Bikes(8-9am, 9-10am): 667, 659
Williamsburg Bridge Vehicles(8-9am, 9-10am): 2,062, 2,001
Williamsburg Bridge Pct Bikes(8-9am, 9-10am): 32.35%, 32.93%

Queensboro Bridge Bikes(8-9am, 9-10am): 424, 309
Queensboro Bridge Vehicles(8-9am, 9-10am): 2,266, 2,048
Queensboro Bridge Pct Bikes(8-9am, 9-10am): 18.71%, 15.09%
  #4  
Old April 21st 18, 01:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,372
Default Build it and they will come - but where are they?

Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 1:21:56 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
What we've heard: "Build it and they will come." That is, separate the
bikes from the cars with paint; or better, with flexible poles; or even
better with parked cars, and bicycle riding will surge. People will
leave their cars at home, and America will become Amsterdam. Or at
least, Amsterdamish.

What else we've heard: "It's working! After adding just one bike lane,
my little town had a 100% increase in bike mode share! It went from 0.2%
to 0.4% and 0.4% is really good for America!!"

What the data show:
https://cyclingindustry.news/wp-cont...2018/04/t2.jpg

That's from
https://cyclingindustry.news/townley...bike-business/

They're building it, and the design consultants are getting wealthy. But
"they" don't seem to be coming.

--
- Frank Krygowski


Okay, so Americans won't ride on the road with the cars, and they won't
ride in cycle lanes "protected" from cars. So, perhaps, Americans just
don't want to cycle, or their infrastructure is already so far developed
in favoring the automobile that they're right not to cycle, because it's impossible.

The question is, Franki-boy: Why should your underlying assumption that
cycling is superior to driving have any greater validity than their
underlying assumption that an automobile is a necessity of life? Do you
have an answer that doesn't rely on some faith-substitute, like Gaia-worship?

Andre Jute
Carfree for a generation now. I practice what I preach.


I think taking cycling percentages for the US on a whole is misleading.
It’s a pretty varied country. Ask Jay for example about his conga line
commute in a place that isn’t exactly flat. Last time I was in New
Orleans there were bikes and bike lanes everywhere. Even had a redneck
neighbor bitching about them to me before my sister told him to watch it.

Maybe if you take just commuters it’s different. People tend to not live
near their jobs. At least until urban regentrification starts.

At any rate, just arguing against infrastructure doesn’t make much sense in
my opinion. Better to argue against bad infrastructure. There’s enough
of that to go around.


--
duane
  #5  
Old April 21st 18, 04:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,365
Default Build it and they will come - but where are they?

On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 5:01:37 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 1:21:56 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
What we've heard: "Build it and they will come." That is, separate the
bikes from the cars with paint; or better, with flexible poles; or even
better with parked cars, and bicycle riding will surge. People will
leave their cars at home, and America will become Amsterdam. Or at
least, Amsterdamish.

What else we've heard: "It's working! After adding just one bike lane,
my little town had a 100% increase in bike mode share! It went from 0.2%
to 0.4% and 0.4% is really good for America!!"

What the data show:
https://cyclingindustry.news/wp-cont...2018/04/t2.jpg

That's from
https://cyclingindustry.news/townley...bike-business/

They're building it, and the design consultants are getting wealthy. But
"they" don't seem to be coming.

--
- Frank Krygowski


Okay, so Americans won't ride on the road with the cars, and they won't
ride in cycle lanes "protected" from cars. So, perhaps, Americans just
don't want to cycle, or their infrastructure is already so far developed
in favoring the automobile that they're right not to cycle, because it's impossible.

The question is, Franki-boy: Why should your underlying assumption that
cycling is superior to driving have any greater validity than their
underlying assumption that an automobile is a necessity of life? Do you
have an answer that doesn't rely on some faith-substitute, like Gaia-worship?

Andre Jute
Carfree for a generation now. I practice what I preach.


I think taking cycling percentages for the US on a whole is misleading.
It’s a pretty varied country. Ask Jay for example about his conga line
commute in a place that isn’t exactly flat. Last time I was in New
Orleans there were bikes and bike lanes everywhere. Even had a redneck
neighbor bitching about them to me before my sister told him to watch it.


In a typical US city, you need to build for cars and you need to build for bikes, and I think doing both at the same time is the best idea. If you strongly favor bikes over cars in a city that is not dead flat and that has a dispersed population, you end up with Portland -- monumentally bad motor vehicle traffic and a lot of dopey, sub-optimal facilities for bikes.

We succeed in bringing cyclists in from the established, close-in east and west side neighborhoods, but we keep adding population in suburbs where commuting to work by bike is not possible -- except by eBike, which I think is going to be the next big thing.

SPEAKING OF -- I was riding home last night, and since it was NOT raining and miserable, I decided to go home up through the cemetery -- which involves a long MUP from downtown, over the tail end of a recently reconstructed bridge (with redundant bicycle facilities) and up a hill with no traffic because it is a cemetery, although you have to hoof around a fence. https://bikeportland.org/wp-content/...7/07/0-16.jpeg Joerg heaven -- no cars, although the facility can be filled with dopes on bikes.

So, I was climbing up the bridge approach and some guy passed on a bike with a gas motor on it -- not even an eBike. That's what I predict for the futu bad MV traffic will produce butt-cracks on gas/electric motor bikes speeding down the bicycle facilities with no possible police intervention. I get into scrapes with the eBike low-life on a regular basis -- people who are clearly not cyclists or even pretending to be cyclists. They are just ratting-out down the facilities on juiced-up bikes.

-- Jay Beattie.






  #6  
Old April 21st 18, 07:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,372
Default Build it and they will come - but where are they?

jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 5:01:37 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 1:21:56 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
What we've heard: "Build it and they will come." That is, separate the
bikes from the cars with paint; or better, with flexible poles; or even
better with parked cars, and bicycle riding will surge. People will
leave their cars at home, and America will become Amsterdam. Or at
least, Amsterdamish.

What else we've heard: "It's working! After adding just one bike lane,
my little town had a 100% increase in bike mode share! It went from 0.2%
to 0.4% and 0.4% is really good for America!!"

What the data show:
https://cyclingindustry.news/wp-cont...2018/04/t2.jpg

That's from
https://cyclingindustry.news/townley...bike-business/

They're building it, and the design consultants are getting wealthy. But
"they" don't seem to be coming.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Okay, so Americans won't ride on the road with the cars, and they won't
ride in cycle lanes "protected" from cars. So, perhaps, Americans just
don't want to cycle, or their infrastructure is already so far developed
in favoring the automobile that they're right not to cycle, because it's impossible.

The question is, Franki-boy: Why should your underlying assumption that
cycling is superior to driving have any greater validity than their
underlying assumption that an automobile is a necessity of life? Do you
have an answer that doesn't rely on some faith-substitute, like Gaia-worship?

Andre Jute
Carfree for a generation now. I practice what I preach.


I think taking cycling percentages for the US on a whole is misleading.
It’s a pretty varied country. Ask Jay for example about his conga line
commute in a place that isn’t exactly flat. Last time I was in New
Orleans there were bikes and bike lanes everywhere. Even had a redneck
neighbor bitching about them to me before my sister told him to watch it.


In a typical US city, you need to build for cars and you need to build
for bikes, and I think doing both at the same time is the best idea. If
you strongly favor bikes over cars in a city that is not dead flat and
that has a dispersed population, you end up with Portland -- monumentally
bad motor vehicle traffic and a lot of dopey, sub-optimal facilities for bikes.

We succeed in bringing cyclists in from the established, close-in east
and west side neighborhoods, but we keep adding population in suburbs
where commuting to work by bike is not possible -- except by eBike, which
I think is going to be the next big thing.

SPEAKING OF -- I was riding home last night, and since it was NOT raining
and miserable, I decided to go home up through the cemetery -- which
involves a long MUP from downtown, over the tail end of a recently
reconstructed bridge (with redundant bicycle facilities) and up a hill
with no traffic because it is a cemetery, although you have to hoof
around a fence. https://bikeportland.org/wp-content/...7/07/0-16.jpeg Joerg heaven
-- no cars, although the facility can be filled with dopes on bikes.

So, I was climbing up the bridge approach and some guy passed on a bike
with a gas motor on it -- not even an eBike. That's what I predict for
the futu bad MV traffic will produce butt-cracks on gas/electric motor
bikes speeding down the bicycle facilities with no possible police
intervention. I get into scrapes with the eBike low-life on a regular
basis -- people who are clearly not cyclists or even pretending to be
cyclists. They are just ratting-out down the facilities on juiced-up bikes.

-- Jay Beattie.








Just got back from a ride. The weather is finally improving. Was a balmy
5c. Some fat idiot in an oversized SUV felt he had to tell us to take the
bike path. I pointed out that the highway was one block over. Asshole.
He wasn’t even going in our direction. Just felt he had to exercise his
ownership of the road. Not even sure which bike path he’s talking about.

I agree with you about building for cars and bikes. This area was built
for cars. But a bike lane on this road wouldn’t hurt. Of course a law
against stupid would work too.

--
duane
  #7  
Old April 21st 18, 08:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,271
Default Build it and they will come - but where are they?

On 4/21/2018 2:50 PM, Duane wrote:

Just got back from a ride. The weather is finally improving. Was a balmy
5c. Some fat idiot in an oversized SUV felt he had to tell us to take the
bike path. I pointed out that the highway was one block over. Asshole.
He wasn’t even going in our direction. Just felt he had to exercise his
ownership of the road. Not even sure which bike path he’s talking about.


One of the best roads out into the countryside goes past a high school.
Maybe 15 years ago road gained three or four mushroom developments of
McMansion houses, but the road itself is a narrow, two-lane former farm
road with deep ditches at each side.

Last year the township got a grant to put in a sidewalk linking two of
the developments to the school. Good idea!

Except yesterday as I rode out into the countryside, I had two motorists
telling me to get on the ******* sidewalk. With one, a guy, it was just
a quick shout, to which I just shook my head "no." The other was a fat
woman driving an environmentally correct hybrid electric car. She was
amazingly abusive, blaring the horn and yelling obscenities. It didn't
matter to her that it's a sideWALK.

Maybe the saying should be "Build it and you will be harassed if you
don't use it."

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #8  
Old April 21st 18, 08:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,723
Default Build it and they will come - but where are they?

On 4/21/2018 1:50 PM, Duane wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 5:01:37 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 1:21:56 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:


-snip weather, riding etc-

5c. Some fat idiot in an oversized SUV felt he had to tell us to take the
bike path. I pointed out that the highway was one block over. Asshole.
He wasn’t even going in our direction. Just felt he had to exercise his
ownership of the road. Not even sure which bike path he’s talking about.

I agree with you about building for cars and bikes. This area was built
for cars. But a bike lane on this road wouldn’t hurt. Of course a law
against stupid would work too.



So far none of those has made a dent.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #9  
Old April 21st 18, 09:03 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,323
Default Build it and they will come - but where are they?

On 4/21/2018 5:01 AM, Duane wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
On Saturday, April 21, 2018 at 1:21:56 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
What we've heard: "Build it and they will come." That is, separate the
bikes from the cars with paint; or better, with flexible poles; or even
better with parked cars, and bicycle riding will surge. People will
leave their cars at home, and America will become Amsterdam. Or at
least, Amsterdamish.

What else we've heard: "It's working! After adding just one bike lane,
my little town had a 100% increase in bike mode share! It went from 0.2%
to 0.4% and 0.4% is really good for America!!"

What the data show:
https://cyclingindustry.news/wp-cont...2018/04/t2.jpg

That's from
https://cyclingindustry.news/townley...bike-business/

They're building it, and the design consultants are getting wealthy. But
"they" don't seem to be coming.

--
- Frank Krygowski


Okay, so Americans won't ride on the road with the cars, and they won't
ride in cycle lanes "protected" from cars. So, perhaps, Americans just
don't want to cycle, or their infrastructure is already so far developed
in favoring the automobile that they're right not to cycle, because it's impossible.

The question is, Franki-boy: Why should your underlying assumption that
cycling is superior to driving have any greater validity than their
underlying assumption that an automobile is a necessity of life? Do you
have an answer that doesn't rely on some faith-substitute, like Gaia-worship?

Andre Jute
Carfree for a generation now. I practice what I preach.


I think taking cycling percentages for the US on a whole is misleading.
It’s a pretty varied country. Ask Jay for example about his conga line
commute in a place that isn’t exactly flat. Last time I was in New
Orleans there were bikes and bike lanes everywhere. Even had a redneck
neighbor bitching about them to me before my sister told him to watch it.

Maybe if you take just commuters it’s different. People tend to not live
near their jobs. At least until urban regentrification starts.

At any rate, just arguing against infrastructure doesn’t make much sense in
my opinion. Better to argue against bad infrastructure. There’s enough
of that to go around.


In my house, the new infrastructure has resulted in an 100% increase of
household members cycling to work.

  #10  
Old April 21st 18, 10:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,271
Default Build it and they will come - but where are they?

On 4/21/2018 4:03 PM, sms wrote:

In my house, the new infrastructure has resulted in an 100% increase of
household members cycling to work.


OK.

In our house and in our previous house, I cycled to work using no
special segregated infrastructure at all. Nobody else cycled to work.
But given that my wife had home health medical clients all across the
county, that's not surprising.

Near the houses of each of our adult kids, there are bike lanes and/or
separate MUPs. Nobody in those families cycles to work. One still rides
occasionally, including some trips to the store, but puts in far more
miles running. The other doesn't ride at all, despite bike lanes right
outside the front door.

More interesting to me is visiting the town where one kid lives. Yes,
there are bike lanes. Yes, they have gravel in them. They just don't
have bikes in them - IOW, I see about two bikes per year using the lanes.

One of those lanes is on my normal route to their local hardware store.
It runs along the curb past a playground all the way up to a T
intersection, where almost all traffic turns right. It's an invitation
to a right hook crash.

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can Women Build Big Muscles? Why Women Cant Build Big Muscles Easily [email protected] UK 0 February 16th 08 09:41 PM
Anyone looking to build a bc? Free hazard hub with a Stockton build! Evan Byrne Unicycling 5 September 14th 06 09:59 AM
Anyone looking to build a bc? Free hazard hub with a Stockton build! Evan Byrne Unicycling 0 August 25th 06 11:05 PM
Disc Wheel Build Build Suggestions osobailo Techniques 2 October 5th 04 01:55 PM
? - To build or not to build -- a bike - ? Andrew Short Techniques 16 August 4th 03 04:12 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2018 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.