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Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 27th 18, 10:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,723
Default Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?

On 4/27/2018 4:10 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 8:27:49 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/27/2018 9:00 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-26 15:40, Roger Merriman wrote:


[...]


I can remember wearing pads out on Canti MTB in single
ride if
it was very wet/gritty area.


That is one of the reasons why I'd never buy any new
bike with
rim brakes. Some roads in our area are either unpaved,
gravel or
connect to a gravel road section and thus have a lot of
dust on
them. However, my road bike was built in 1982 and there
were no
disc brakes available, at least not in Europe.


Shimano's was around 1976 IIRC:
https://bmxmuseum.com/forsale/248919


Phil Wood 1974. http://www.philwood.com/about/txthist.php
RIP Phil.

There is no need for disc brakes for dry weather road
riding, even on
"dusty" roads and occasional single track or urban trail.
It's a
solution in search of a problem. My rim brakes work fine
in wet
weather, ...



Work fine?


... but I prefer discs because of rim wear and better wet
braking.



Yet now they are worse than disc brakes? To me brakes are
among the most impoprtant parts on a vehicle. I want top
performance from them, not a "somewhat ok" performance.

Thing is, one doesn't always know if the weather turns foul
during a long ride and then I don't want to have to
pussyfoot it back home because of sub-par brakes.


... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper
brakes on
the weekends and find that braking is great on both.


Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came.
Ebay tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early
today.

They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the
trailing edge inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad
want to skew. Maybe I'll grind that off.


It's not a bug, it's a feature.

http://www.koolstop.com/english/dura_type.html

Note red arrow, bottom of product card

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Ads
  #22  
Old April 27th 18, 11:02 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,507
Default Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?

On 2018-04-27 14:39, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/27/2018 4:10 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote:


[...]


... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper
brakes on
the weekends and find that braking is great on both.


Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came.
Ebay tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early
today.

They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the
trailing edge inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad
want to skew. Maybe I'll grind that off.


It's not a bug, it's a feature.

http://www.koolstop.com/english/dura_type.html

Note red arrow, bottom of product card


Shazam. Looked on the package I just ripped open and there it is, the
red arrow. Let's see whether this plow tip really works in the rain.
Though it's pretty much over with rain for the year out here.

Thanks for the link, it's bookmarked.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #23  
Old April 27th 18, 11:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,507
Default Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?

On 2018-04-27 14:24, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/27/2018 3:54 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 13:16, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/27/2018 2:45 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 08:22, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/27/2018 9:00 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-26 15:40, Roger Merriman wrote:
KJohn B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 19:14:31 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 5:14:03 PM UTC-7, John B.
wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 11:04:26 -0700, Joerg

wrote:

On 2018-04-24 10:10, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 12:10:53 PM UTC-4,
Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-24 08:01, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/24/2018 9:47 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-23 17:11, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/23/2018 5:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
The worn Koolstop pads are 52mm long. Would
these fit
Koolstop?

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ByQAA...KD/s-l1600.jpg





I am a little puzzled by the clip that gets
shipped along
because Koolstop only has the set screw.


Those replace this Kool Stop product:
http://www.koolstop.com/english/v_typeholder.html

inserts:
http://www.koolstop.com/english/v_type.html
http://www.koolstop.com/english/v_type2.html

If your setup does not include the little wire
pins then
maybe, maybe
not. What is it that you have now?


They look like this but with the holes in the
metal body:

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/sho...13353ae498d1cb









You loosen the set screw and the pad slides out
the back.
However, I don't want Koolstop stuff anymore.
It's
expensive, the pads wear quickly and to top it
off
the
mounting hardware rusts fast. YGWYPF? I don't
think so.



The EVO inserts you referenced earlier are the
wrong part.

You probably want these:
http://www.koolstop.com/english/dura_type.html

Product menu in that link is easy to use.


Thanks. $10+ is a bit much for those but I saw them
on EBay for $8.

Good grief! If $2 is that important to you, your
business must be failing.
Spend less time posting here, spend more time
finding
clients. Then support
your LBS.


I don't want any more clients, want less clients,
want
to retire and
ride. Anyhow, after Jay's response I just ordered the
black version for
dry conditions. $7.25, that's an ok price for rim
brake pads. Not as low
as Clarks but with these I don't have to install and
adjust the whole
thing, just loosen a set screw and swap the rubber
parts.

I think the question is whether you want a cheap
pad or
an effective
pad. I can buy brake pads locally, actually the entire
brake shoe -
pad, holder and nut to hold it on - for approximately
50 cents each,
about a dollar a wheel. They don't last long and they
don't stop very
well, but they are cheap.

Or I can buy a Koolstop look alike for about 10
dollars
a wheel that
do stop in wet or dry conditions and last a long time.

As somebody once said, you pays your money and you
takes your choice.
(But after you make your choice don't whine about it)

I can get KoolStop salmon pads at Western Bikeworks for
$6.63 -- less
that Joerg's FleaBay purchase.
https://www.westernbikeworks.com/pro...inserts?sg=501






I'm a revered member of the Leaders' Club!

I'd go down to the store (which is near my work), get
them off the wall
-- say "hey" to the guy and gals. I can really drive
down the price if
I get some of their free micro-roast coffee. In
fact, if
I bring the
wife and kid and get three cups of that fine coffee, I
could drive the
price down to zero. They also have a beer tap, but I
think they charge
for that. I've gotten more than $6.63 of free advice
from them -- and
the head mechanic is the son of an olde tyme bike-head,
so he knows all
the old lore, and he builds steel frames. Priceless
conversations.

If you don't support your stores, they will go away --
particularly
stores in a small town like Shingle Springs. Joerg
should pay the extra
buck and buy local. Nobody is getting rich off his
buck.

-- Jay Beattie.

The thing is.... how often does one change brake pads?

Admittedly I don't ride as much as I used to but even in
my heyday I
don't remember that brake pads were an important factor
in my bike
maintenance budget.

On a road, no but off road can be quite quick, my CX bike
ate koolstop
Salmons in 100 ish miles, the Gravel bike with cable
disks
trashed its
front pads within 250 miles, it has been very wet and
thus
gritty.

I can remember wearing pads out on Canti MTB in single
ride if it was very
wet/gritty area.


That is one of the reasons why I'd never buy any new bike
with rim brakes. Some roads in our area are either
unpaved,
gravel or connect to a gravel road section and thus have a
lot of dust on them. However, my road bike was built in
1982
and there were no disc brakes available, at least not in
Europe.


Shimano's was around 1976 IIRC:
https://bmxmuseum.com/forsale/248919


There were disk brakes and also drum brakes back then which
is always better than rim brakes (which I didn't really
want). However, nothing for road bike frames I was told.

Many of the heavy "behemoth style" Dutch bikes had drum
brakes back then. They lasted a long time and most of all
would not show deficiency in heavy rain as rim brakes do.


Oh, Joerg that's a silly nearly meaningless statement.

A Sturmey AB (I own and ride one myself) is dismally
inadequate without
a snappy front caliper at anything beyond opa speeds on
those opafeits.
They're cute and very consistent, as you noted, but peak
braking power
on a 90mm drum sucks no matter how you slice it.


Nothing silly at all here. I rode those bikes on many
occasions. The brakes were powerful and for sure better than
rim brakes. They had to because we often had a pretty
passenger riding along on the baggage rack. Oh, those
memories ... :-)

On some bikes the front drum brake was operated by a push
rod, not a Bowden wire like others. That was almost
indestructible.


It's the same hub. Optional cable fittings or brake rod connector.


This was a normal mode of operation over there in the 80's:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_PK0EOWvC8YI/TT...jpg?imgmax=800

That guy's bike doesn't seem to have a front brake at all. Scary.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #24  
Old April 27th 18, 11:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,366
Default Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?

On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 8:27:49 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/27/2018 9:00 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-26 15:40, Roger Merriman wrote:


[...]


I can remember wearing pads out on Canti MTB in single ride if
it was very wet/gritty area.


That is one of the reasons why I'd never buy any new bike with
rim brakes. Some roads in our area are either unpaved, gravel or
connect to a gravel road section and thus have a lot of dust on
them. However, my road bike was built in 1982 and there were no
disc brakes available, at least not in Europe.


Shimano's was around 1976 IIRC:
https://bmxmuseum.com/forsale/248919


Phil Wood 1974. http://www.philwood.com/about/txthist.php RIP Phil.

There is no need for disc brakes for dry weather road riding, even on
"dusty" roads and occasional single track or urban trail. It's a
solution in search of a problem. My rim brakes work fine in wet
weather, ...



Work fine?


... but I prefer discs because of rim wear and better wet
braking.



Yet now they are worse than disc brakes? To me brakes are among the most
impoprtant parts on a vehicle. I want top performance from them, not a
"somewhat ok" performance.

Thing is, one doesn't always know if the weather turns foul during a
long ride and then I don't want to have to pussyfoot it back home
because of sub-par brakes.


Pussyfoot? Really? Oddly enough, I rode rim brakes across the United States, east-to-west and north-to-south (and countless other tours, a number in the Sierra) on a fully loaded touring bike with Nuovo Record and canti rim brakes in snow, rain, hail, dark-of-night, etc., etc. and never once felt that they were inadequate to stop me. Decades of racing and riding on single and dual pivot rim brakes in the rain and never once pussyfooted except to avoid traction loss. I've never crashed in the rain because of brake failure (and I've crashed many times in the rain), although I had one close-call involving some bad cantis on STI levers, but then again, I had an even scarier incident with mis-adjusted cable discs. My crashes were all due to traction loss.

The fact is that well-adjusted dual-pivots or even single-pivots caliper brakes are fine in the rain except that they eat-up rims. I pussyfoot in the rain to avoid traction loss, and I give myself plenty of braking room -- with all types of brakes. Yes, you will have more immediate braking with discs and particularly hydraulic discs, but in poor traction conditions, that is not all upside. I've locked-up the rear wheel and fish-tailed far more times on my hydraulic discs than on rim brakes. Super-powerful disc brakes pose their own problems on road bikes, apart from the price of pads and being mechanically fussy (pad-lock if you depress the lever with the wheel out, disc drag).

... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on
the weekends and find that braking is great on both.


Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came. Ebay
tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early today.

They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the trailing edge
inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad want to skew. Maybe I'll
grind that off.


No. It's meant to wipe the rim before the pad fully engages. It is exactly what you want for dirt and wet weather performance.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #25  
Old April 28th 18, 12:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,507
Default Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?

On 2018-04-27 15:11, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 8:27:49 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/27/2018 9:00 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-26 15:40, Roger Merriman wrote:


[...]


I can remember wearing pads out on Canti MTB in single ride
if it was very wet/gritty area.


That is one of the reasons why I'd never buy any new bike
with rim brakes. Some roads in our area are either unpaved,
gravel or connect to a gravel road section and thus have a
lot of dust on them. However, my road bike was built in 1982
and there were no disc brakes available, at least not in
Europe.


Shimano's was around 1976 IIRC:
https://bmxmuseum.com/forsale/248919

Phil Wood 1974. http://www.philwood.com/about/txthist.php RIP
Phil.

There is no need for disc brakes for dry weather road riding,
even on "dusty" roads and occasional single track or urban trail.
It's a solution in search of a problem. My rim brakes work fine
in wet weather, ...



Work fine?


... but I prefer discs because of rim wear and better wet
braking.



Yet now they are worse than disc brakes? To me brakes are among the
most impoprtant parts on a vehicle. I want top performance from
them, not a "somewhat ok" performance.

Thing is, one doesn't always know if the weather turns foul during
a long ride and then I don't want to have to pussyfoot it back
home because of sub-par brakes.


Pussyfoot? Really? Oddly enough, I rode rim brakes across the United
States, east-to-west and north-to-south (and countless other tours, a
number in the Sierra) on a fully loaded touring bike with Nuovo
Record and canti rim brakes in snow, rain, hail, dark-of-night, etc.,
etc. and never once felt that they were inadequate to stop me.



I have never experienced a rim brake on any bike that didn't have a
1-2sec "free fall" in heavy rain. Unless I kept the pads slightly
engaged and that is murder for a rim.


Decades of racing and riding on single and dual pivot rim brakes in
the rain and never once pussyfooted except to avoid traction loss.
I've never crashed in the rain because of brake failure (and I've
crashed many times in the rain), although I had one close-call
involving some bad cantis on STI levers, but then again, I had an
even scarier incident with mis-adjusted cable discs. My crashes were
all due to traction loss.


One of my really nasty crashes happened when the front brake cable
snapped. It was almost new. That just does not happen with hydraulic
disc brakes. I had the choice of wiping out with major road rash or
chancing it into the vegetation. In either case I'd have been toast if
there had been oncoming traffic.


The fact is that well-adjusted dual-pivots or even single-pivots
caliper brakes are fine in the rain except that they eat-up rims. I
pussyfoot in the rain to avoid traction loss, and I give myself
plenty of braking room -- with all types of brakes. Yes, you will
have more immediate braking with discs and particularly hydraulic
discs, but in poor traction conditions, that is not all upside. I've
locked-up the rear wheel and fish-tailed far more times on my
hydraulic discs than on rim brakes. Super-powerful disc brakes pose
their own problems on road bikes, apart from the price of pads and
being mechanically fussy (pad-lock if you depress the lever with the
wheel out, disc drag).


The hydraulic disk brakes on my MTB are remarkably low maintenance and
they come on as hard as I want to in any weather. Rim brakes don't.


... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on the
weekends and find that braking is great on both.


Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came. Ebay
tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early today.

They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the trailing
edge inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad want to skew.
Maybe I'll grind that off.


No. It's meant to wipe the rim before the pad fully engages. It is
exactly what you want for dirt and wet weather performance.


Let's see. I could almost bet that pointy tip will be worn away after a
few hundred miles.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #26  
Old April 28th 18, 02:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,366
Default Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?

On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 4:18:58 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 15:11, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 8:27:49 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/27/2018 9:00 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-26 15:40, Roger Merriman wrote:

[...]


I can remember wearing pads out on Canti MTB in single ride
if it was very wet/gritty area.


That is one of the reasons why I'd never buy any new bike
with rim brakes. Some roads in our area are either unpaved,
gravel or connect to a gravel road section and thus have a
lot of dust on them. However, my road bike was built in 1982
and there were no disc brakes available, at least not in
Europe.


Shimano's was around 1976 IIRC:
https://bmxmuseum.com/forsale/248919

Phil Wood 1974. http://www.philwood.com/about/txthist.php RIP
Phil.

There is no need for disc brakes for dry weather road riding,
even on "dusty" roads and occasional single track or urban trail.
It's a solution in search of a problem. My rim brakes work fine
in wet weather, ...


Work fine?


... but I prefer discs because of rim wear and better wet
braking.


Yet now they are worse than disc brakes? To me brakes are among the
most impoprtant parts on a vehicle. I want top performance from
them, not a "somewhat ok" performance.

Thing is, one doesn't always know if the weather turns foul during
a long ride and then I don't want to have to pussyfoot it back
home because of sub-par brakes.


Pussyfoot? Really? Oddly enough, I rode rim brakes across the United
States, east-to-west and north-to-south (and countless other tours, a
number in the Sierra) on a fully loaded touring bike with Nuovo
Record and canti rim brakes in snow, rain, hail, dark-of-night, etc.,
etc. and never once felt that they were inadequate to stop me.



I have never experienced a rim brake on any bike that didn't have a
1-2sec "free fall" in heavy rain. Unless I kept the pads slightly
engaged and that is murder for a rim.


Decades of racing and riding on single and dual pivot rim brakes in
the rain and never once pussyfooted except to avoid traction loss.
I've never crashed in the rain because of brake failure (and I've
crashed many times in the rain), although I had one close-call
involving some bad cantis on STI levers, but then again, I had an
even scarier incident with mis-adjusted cable discs. My crashes were
all due to traction loss.


One of my really nasty crashes happened when the front brake cable
snapped. It was almost new. That just does not happen with hydraulic
disc brakes. I had the choice of wiping out with major road rash or
chancing it into the vegetation. In either case I'd have been toast if
there had been oncoming traffic.


A catastrophic failure can happen in any system. Breaking a new cable is a catastrophic failure. It shouldn't happen (it's never happened to me in maybe 300K miles of riding). You could get the same failure with defective hydraulic tube or joint, piston, pad holder, mounting bolt, etc. You could get a leak -- you could even blow through a pad set on a single ride. A giant earthquake could wipe out your hydraulic calipers!


The fact is that well-adjusted dual-pivots or even single-pivots
caliper brakes are fine in the rain except that they eat-up rims. I
pussyfoot in the rain to avoid traction loss, and I give myself
plenty of braking room -- with all types of brakes. Yes, you will
have more immediate braking with discs and particularly hydraulic
discs, but in poor traction conditions, that is not all upside. I've
locked-up the rear wheel and fish-tailed far more times on my
hydraulic discs than on rim brakes. Super-powerful disc brakes pose
their own problems on road bikes, apart from the price of pads and
being mechanically fussy (pad-lock if you depress the lever with the
wheel out, disc drag).


The hydraulic disk brakes on my MTB are remarkably low maintenance and
they come on as hard as I want to in any weather. Rim brakes don't.


... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on the
weekends and find that braking is great on both.


Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came. Ebay
tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early today.

They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the trailing
edge inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad want to skew.
Maybe I'll grind that off.


No. It's meant to wipe the rim before the pad fully engages. It is
exactly what you want for dirt and wet weather performance.


Let's see. I could almost bet that pointy tip will be worn away after a
few hundred miles.


Depends on the 100 miles, but yes, it's not going to last forever. My disc pads last about one-quarter the time of my rim brake pads.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #27  
Old April 28th 18, 03:18 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,507
Default Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?

On 2018-04-27 18:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 4:18:58 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 15:11, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote:


[...]



Decades of racing and riding on single and dual pivot rim brakes
in the rain and never once pussyfooted except to avoid traction
loss. I've never crashed in the rain because of brake failure
(and I've crashed many times in the rain), although I had one
close-call involving some bad cantis on STI levers, but then
again, I had an even scarier incident with mis-adjusted cable
discs. My crashes were all due to traction loss.


One of my really nasty crashes happened when the front brake cable
snapped. It was almost new. That just does not happen with
hydraulic disc brakes. I had the choice of wiping out with major
road rash or chancing it into the vegetation. In either case I'd
have been toast if there had been oncoming traffic.


A catastrophic failure can happen in any system. Breaking a new
cable is a catastrophic failure. It shouldn't happen (it's never
happened to me in maybe 300K miles of riding).



I had it happen half a dozen times. My sister had it happen at least
twice. Two of those incidences caused accidents, a 3rd almost did
(blowing through a non 4-way downhill stop sign but nobody came). These
were all good quality cables bought at reputable bike shops, not
department store merchandise.


... You could get the
same failure with defective hydraulic tube or joint, piston, pad
holder, mounting bolt, etc. You could get a leak ...



Those are slow, you'd feel it coming. Things don't just snap.


... -- you could even blow through a pad set on a single ride.



That must be a long hard competition ride.


... A giant earthquake could wipe out your hydraulic calipers!


Yes, I suppose that could happen. Or a direct meteorite hit into the
left lever.

[...]


... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on
the weekends and find that braking is great on both.


Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came.
Ebay tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early
today.

They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the
trailing edge inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad
want to skew. Maybe I'll grind that off.

No. It's meant to wipe the rim before the pad fully engages. It
is exactly what you want for dirt and wet weather performance.


Let's see. I could almost bet that pointy tip will be worn away
after a few hundred miles.


Depends on the 100 miles, but yes, it's not going to last forever. My
disc pads last about one-quarter the time of my rim brake pads.


Time to upgrade the disc brakes? Mine last about the same and that is
comparing a road environment for the rim pads to 90% trail riding on the
MTB. Dusty, mucky, wet and gravely trail riding. Sometimes when a stench
develops I have to pry "brake mousse" out of the front caliper. That
happens after the weeds shot up and have to I ride through them for
miles. Star thistle is particularly nasty. It tangles in the rotor
spider, then gets chopped and pureed at the caliper. Doesn't cause
performance issues but it can stink.

What wears really fast are organic pads. The kind bike shops sell you
for north of $15/pair. I like ceramic-based pads. You can't use cheap
rotors with those though, they'd eat them up. I use Shimano RT66 rotors.
They cost me $22 each, 8-inchers.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #28  
Old April 28th 18, 10:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,366
Default Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?

On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 7:17:42 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 18:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 4:18:58 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 15:11, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote:


[...]



Decades of racing and riding on single and dual pivot rim brakes
in the rain and never once pussyfooted except to avoid traction
loss. I've never crashed in the rain because of brake failure
(and I've crashed many times in the rain), although I had one
close-call involving some bad cantis on STI levers, but then
again, I had an even scarier incident with mis-adjusted cable
discs. My crashes were all due to traction loss.


One of my really nasty crashes happened when the front brake cable
snapped. It was almost new. That just does not happen with
hydraulic disc brakes. I had the choice of wiping out with major
road rash or chancing it into the vegetation. In either case I'd
have been toast if there had been oncoming traffic.


A catastrophic failure can happen in any system. Breaking a new
cable is a catastrophic failure. It shouldn't happen (it's never
happened to me in maybe 300K miles of riding).



I had it happen half a dozen times. My sister had it happen at least
twice. Two of those incidences caused accidents, a 3rd almost did
(blowing through a non 4-way downhill stop sign but nobody came). These
were all good quality cables bought at reputable bike shops, not
department store merchandise.


Something is horribly wrong. I've never snapped a new brake cable or even broken an old one. Shift cable, yes -- STI levers with the hard bends can be rough on those little cables.




... You could get the
same failure with defective hydraulic tube or joint, piston, pad
holder, mounting bolt, etc. You could get a leak ...



Those are slow, you'd feel it coming. Things don't just snap.


... -- you could even blow through a pad set on a single ride.



That must be a long hard competition ride.


... A giant earthquake could wipe out your hydraulic calipers!


Yes, I suppose that could happen. Or a direct meteorite hit into the
left lever.

[...]


... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on
the weekends and find that braking is great on both.


Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came.
Ebay tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early
today.

They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the
trailing edge inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad
want to skew. Maybe I'll grind that off.

No. It's meant to wipe the rim before the pad fully engages. It
is exactly what you want for dirt and wet weather performance.


Let's see. I could almost bet that pointy tip will be worn away
after a few hundred miles.


Depends on the 100 miles, but yes, it's not going to last forever. My
disc pads last about one-quarter the time of my rim brake pads.


Time to upgrade the disc brakes? Mine last about the same and that is
comparing a road environment for the rim pads to 90% trail riding on the
MTB. Dusty, mucky, wet and gravely trail riding. Sometimes when a stench
develops I have to pry "brake mousse" out of the front caliper. That
happens after the weeds shot up and have to I ride through them for
miles. Star thistle is particularly nasty. It tangles in the rotor
spider, then gets chopped and pureed at the caliper. Doesn't cause
performance issues but it can stink.

What wears really fast are organic pads. The kind bike shops sell you
for north of $15/pair. I like ceramic-based pads. You can't use cheap
rotors with those though, they'd eat them up. I use Shimano RT66 rotors.
They cost me $22 each, 8-inchers.


Organic are terrible, but even the metalic pads don't last that long -- not nearly as long as rim brake pads. I run 160mm rotors on the commuter and 140/160mm rotors on every thing else (the hydraulic bikes). I buy name-brand and not Chinese no-name replacements.

I have a Norco Search gravel bike with hydraulics that my son was riding today, and they get drag periodically and can be very annoying. SO TECH QUESTION: what would cause periodic dragging -- and a pinging-type drag, almost like the return springs are hitting the rotor. Then it goes away, and braking is normal -- so I know the pads are not worn out and the springs are not hitting the rotor (but I will check). Piston drag? The bike is not that old, but I could bleed it. The calipers are properly centered.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #29  
Old April 28th 18, 11:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Roger Merriman[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 143
Default Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?

jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 28, 2018 at 7:17:42 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 18:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 4:18:58 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 15:11, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote:


[...]



Decades of racing and riding on single and dual pivot rim brakes
in the rain and never once pussyfooted except to avoid traction
loss. I've never crashed in the rain because of brake failure
(and I've crashed many times in the rain), although I had one
close-call involving some bad cantis on STI levers, but then
again, I had an even scarier incident with mis-adjusted cable
discs. My crashes were all due to traction loss.


One of my really nasty crashes happened when the front brake cable
snapped. It was almost new. That just does not happen with
hydraulic disc brakes. I had the choice of wiping out with major
road rash or chancing it into the vegetation. In either case I'd
have been toast if there had been oncoming traffic.

A catastrophic failure can happen in any system. Breaking a new
cable is a catastrophic failure. It shouldn't happen (it's never
happened to me in maybe 300K miles of riding).



I had it happen half a dozen times. My sister had it happen at least
twice. Two of those incidences caused accidents, a 3rd almost did
(blowing through a non 4-way downhill stop sign but nobody came). These
were all good quality cables bought at reputable bike shops, not
department store merchandise.


Something is horribly wrong. I've never snapped a new brake cable or
even broken an old one. Shift cable, yes -- STI levers with the hard
bends can be rough on those little cables.




... You could get the
same failure with defective hydraulic tube or joint, piston, pad
holder, mounting bolt, etc. You could get a leak ...



Those are slow, you'd feel it coming. Things don't just snap.


... -- you could even blow through a pad set on a single ride.



That must be a long hard competition ride.


... A giant earthquake could wipe out your hydraulic calipers!


Yes, I suppose that could happen. Or a direct meteorite hit into the
left lever.

[...]


... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on
the weekends and find that braking is great on both.


Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came.
Ebay tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early
today.

They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the
trailing edge inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad
want to skew. Maybe I'll grind that off.

No. It's meant to wipe the rim before the pad fully engages. It
is exactly what you want for dirt and wet weather performance.


Let's see. I could almost bet that pointy tip will be worn away
after a few hundred miles.

Depends on the 100 miles, but yes, it's not going to last forever. My
disc pads last about one-quarter the time of my rim brake pads.


Time to upgrade the disc brakes? Mine last about the same and that is
comparing a road environment for the rim pads to 90% trail riding on the
MTB. Dusty, mucky, wet and gravely trail riding. Sometimes when a stench
develops I have to pry "brake mousse" out of the front caliper. That
happens after the weeds shot up and have to I ride through them for
miles. Star thistle is particularly nasty. It tangles in the rotor
spider, then gets chopped and pureed at the caliper. Doesn't cause
performance issues but it can stink.

What wears really fast are organic pads. The kind bike shops sell you
for north of $15/pair. I like ceramic-based pads. You can't use cheap
rotors with those though, they'd eat them up. I use Shimano RT66 rotors.
They cost me $22 each, 8-inchers.


Organic are terrible, but even the metalic pads don't last that long --
not nearly as long as rim brake pads. I run 160mm rotors on the commuter
and 140/160mm rotors on every thing else (the hydraulic bikes). I buy
name-brand and not Chinese no-name replacements.

I have a Norco Search gravel bike with hydraulics that my son was riding
today, and they get drag periodically and can be very annoying. SO TECH
QUESTION: what would cause periodic dragging -- and a pinging-type drag,
almost like the return springs are hitting the rotor. Then it goes away,
and braking is normal -- so I know the pads are not worn out and the
springs are not hitting the rotor (but I will check). Piston drag? The
bike is not that old, but I could bleed it. The calipers are properly centered.

-- Jay Beattie.


Not sure both my MTB’s get a transitory pinging occasionally, I assume it’s
the piston or spring sticking or a bit of something, either way doesn’t
noticeably drag and it clears rapidly one or two pings and it’s silent.

My Norco Search which has cable disks I don’t think does ping, but it’s
fairly new.

Like for like personally rim brakes wore quicker, in that MTB and CX, ie
off road. My older CX on mixed routes would eat rim pads in 80-150 miles,
the Search even with the really wet weather and similar riding while it
does eat pads is far longer lasting than the CX with its canti’s was.

Roger Merriman



  #30  
Old April 29th 18, 12:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 464
Default Do EVO pads fit in KoolStop holders?

On 4/27/2018 3:11 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 2:10:07 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-27 10:57, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 27, 2018 at 8:27:49 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/27/2018 9:00 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-04-26 15:40, Roger Merriman wrote:


[...]


I can remember wearing pads out on Canti MTB in single ride if
it was very wet/gritty area.


That is one of the reasons why I'd never buy any new bike with
rim brakes. Some roads in our area are either unpaved, gravel or
connect to a gravel road section and thus have a lot of dust on
them. However, my road bike was built in 1982 and there were no
disc brakes available, at least not in Europe.


Shimano's was around 1976 IIRC:
https://bmxmuseum.com/forsale/248919

Phil Wood 1974. http://www.philwood.com/about/txthist.php RIP Phil.

There is no need for disc brakes for dry weather road riding, even on
"dusty" roads and occasional single track or urban trail. It's a
solution in search of a problem. My rim brakes work fine in wet
weather, ...



Work fine?


... but I prefer discs because of rim wear and better wet
braking.



Yet now they are worse than disc brakes? To me brakes are among the most
impoprtant parts on a vehicle. I want top performance from them, not a
"somewhat ok" performance.

Thing is, one doesn't always know if the weather turns foul during a
long ride and then I don't want to have to pussyfoot it back home
because of sub-par brakes.


Pussyfoot? Really? Oddly enough, I rode rim brakes across the United States, east-to-west and north-to-south (and countless other tours, a number in the Sierra) on a fully loaded touring bike with Nuovo Record and canti rim brakes in snow, rain, hail, dark-of-night, etc., etc. and never once felt that they were inadequate to stop me. Decades of racing and riding on single and dual pivot rim brakes in the rain and never once pussyfooted except to avoid traction loss. I've never crashed in the rain because of brake failure (and I've crashed many times in the rain), although I had one close-call involving some bad cantis on STI levers, but then again, I had an even scarier incident with mis-adjusted cable discs. My crashes were all due to traction loss.

The fact is that well-adjusted dual-pivots or even single-pivots caliper brakes are fine in the rain except that they eat-up rims. I pussyfoot in the rain to avoid traction loss, and I give myself plenty of braking room -- with all types of brakes. Yes, you will have more immediate braking with discs and particularly hydraulic discs, but in poor traction conditions, that is not all upside. I've locked-up the rear wheel and fish-tailed far more times on my hydraulic discs than on rim brakes. Super-powerful disc brakes pose their own problems on road bikes, apart from the price of pads and being mechanically fussy (pad-lock if you depress the lever with the wheel out, disc drag).

... I switch between disc and direct mount caliper brakes on
the weekends and find that braking is great on both.


Thanks for the hint about the Koolstop pads. They just came. Ebay
tracking is a nice "mail is here" alert. It came early today.

They fit like a glove. I wonder why they now flare the trailing edge
inwards towards the rim. It would make the pad want to skew. Maybe I'll
grind that off.


No. It's meant to wipe the rim before the pad fully engages. It is exactly what you want for dirt and wet weather performance.

-- Jay Beattie.


That pointy tip also makes it easy to toe in the pads an appropriate
amount to reduce squeal/judder. Once the pads are installed, if that
"tip" wears off, it's already served one useful purpose.

-Mark J.



 




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