Shimano M781 derailleur, guide worn off, does it matter?

On 2015-08-04 6:59 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2015 07:05:53 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-03 6:07 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2015 11:27:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-03 10:38 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/3/2015 12:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-08-03 9:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:


That's a perfectly acceptable design that works for most people. Not
for you, so go buy something more robust.
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...33_-1___204741
The market is filled with supposedly indestructible water bottle
cages.

If you are that tough on bikes, then you need to make the investment
in higher quality parts.


Well, yeah, now I know that but mine was sold as a MTB-suitable bottle
holder. Haven't got X-ray eyes and even X-ray would not have seen this
coming.

It may be a fine MTB-suitable bottle holder. We know of only one
failure, for one guy who brags about his extreme riding.

Seems to me you need to find people whose riding is as rough as yours,
and ask their opinion before buying equipment. Perhaps an off-road
downhill racer forum might help you.


I don't know where you get that idea from. My riding is in no way
extreme, for road bikers yes but certainly not for mountain bikers. The
hardcore guys fly down rock gardens with both wheels off the ground and
occasionally you see them with some part of their body in a cast. I
don't do that sort of stuff. But I do ride uneven singletrack at 20mph
on occasion and expect MTB stuff to stomach that, which I think is not
too much to ask.

You are being silly. You know and, you have stated, that some tires
are more or less serviceable than others but you seem to be saying
that all bottle cages are, or should be, the same.

You are not being very constant in your quality control.


When one buys name brand stuff marketed for the planned application one
expects that the product lives up to that promise.

I see. You can buy a name brand "off the road" tire and it specifies
how many miles/hours/kilometers it will last?

I ask as you have complained about exactly that. Your expensive high
end tires didn't last long enough although I have never seen a tire
with a promise to last a specific time.


That case is not about lasting in terms of wear but about being able to
tolerate certain exposures of force, vibrations and such without
structural failure.

When I bought my car 18 years ago it was marketed as an offroad vehicle
that is also able to carry 1/2 a ton. It dutyfully does that, so far
nothing ever broke. That is what I call a product living up to a
manufacturer's promise.

With the tires my complaint is that they seem to be less than stellar
when it comes to longevity while automotive and dirt bike tires are.
Therefore, I no longer buy high end MTB tires because that doesn't make
any sense.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg writes:

On 2015-08-04 6:59 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2015 07:05:53 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-03 6:07 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2015 11:27:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-03 10:38 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/3/2015 12:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-08-03 9:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:


That's a perfectly acceptable design that works for most people. Not
for you, so go buy something more robust.
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...33_-1___204741
The market is filled with supposedly indestructible water bottle
cages.

If you are that tough on bikes, then you need to make the investment
in higher quality parts.


Well, yeah, now I know that but mine was sold as a MTB-suitable bottle
holder. Haven't got X-ray eyes and even X-ray would not have seen this
coming.

It may be a fine MTB-suitable bottle holder. We know of only one
failure, for one guy who brags about his extreme riding.

Seems to me you need to find people whose riding is as rough as yours,
and ask their opinion before buying equipment. Perhaps an off-road
downhill racer forum might help you.


I don't know where you get that idea from. My riding is in no way
extreme, for road bikers yes but certainly not for mountain bikers. The
hardcore guys fly down rock gardens with both wheels off the ground and
occasionally you see them with some part of their body in a cast. I
don't do that sort of stuff. But I do ride uneven singletrack at 20mph
on occasion and expect MTB stuff to stomach that, which I think is not
too much to ask.

You are being silly. You know and, you have stated, that some tires
are more or less serviceable than others but you seem to be saying
that all bottle cages are, or should be, the same.

You are not being very constant in your quality control.


When one buys name brand stuff marketed for the planned application one
expects that the product lives up to that promise.

I see. You can buy a name brand "off the road" tire and it specifies
how many miles/hours/kilometers it will last?

I ask as you have complained about exactly that. Your expensive high
end tires didn't last long enough although I have never seen a tire
with a promise to last a specific time.


That case is not about lasting in terms of wear but about being able
to tolerate certain exposures of force, vibrations and such without
structural failure.

When I bought my car 18 years ago it was marketed as an offroad
vehicle that is also able to carry 1/2 a ton. It dutyfully does that,
so far nothing ever broke. That is what I call a product living up to
a manufacturer's promise.

On the other hand, you cannot recall the last time you put fuel
in it, so maybe it doesn't get quite the same level of abuse.

--
Joe Riel

On 2015-08-05 9:55 AM, Joe Riel wrote:
Joerg writes:

On 2015-08-04 6:59 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2015 07:05:53 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-03 6:07 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2015 11:27:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-03 10:38 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/3/2015 12:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-08-03 9:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:


That's a perfectly acceptable design that works for most people. Not
for you, so go buy something more robust.
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...33_-1___204741
The market is filled with supposedly indestructible water bottle
cages.

If you are that tough on bikes, then you need to make the investment
in higher quality parts.


Well, yeah, now I know that but mine was sold as a MTB-suitable bottle
holder. Haven't got X-ray eyes and even X-ray would not have seen this
coming.

It may be a fine MTB-suitable bottle holder. We know of only one
failure, for one guy who brags about his extreme riding.

Seems to me you need to find people whose riding is as rough as yours,
and ask their opinion before buying equipment. Perhaps an off-road
downhill racer forum might help you.


I don't know where you get that idea from. My riding is in no way
extreme, for road bikers yes but certainly not for mountain bikers. The
hardcore guys fly down rock gardens with both wheels off the ground and
occasionally you see them with some part of their body in a cast. I
don't do that sort of stuff. But I do ride uneven singletrack at 20mph
on occasion and expect MTB stuff to stomach that, which I think is not
too much to ask.

You are being silly. You know and, you have stated, that some tires
are more or less serviceable than others but you seem to be saying
that all bottle cages are, or should be, the same.

You are not being very constant in your quality control.


When one buys name brand stuff marketed for the planned application one
expects that the product lives up to that promise.

I see. You can buy a name brand "off the road" tire and it specifies
how many miles/hours/kilometers it will last?

I ask as you have complained about exactly that. Your expensive high
end tires didn't last long enough although I have never seen a tire
with a promise to last a specific time.


That case is not about lasting in terms of wear but about being able
to tolerate certain exposures of force, vibrations and such without
structural failure.

When I bought my car 18 years ago it was marketed as an offroad
vehicle that is also able to carry 1/2 a ton. It dutyfully does that,
so far nothing ever broke. That is what I call a product living up to
a manufacturer's promise.

On the other hand, you cannot recall the last time you put fuel
in it, so maybe it doesn't get quite the same level of abuse.


Correct, but that wasn't always the case. The car has almost 80000mi on
it. I used it a lot to commute and haul heavy stuff across unfriendly
turf. Getting loads of firewood or other gear across bumpy dirt roads is
brutal yet it took it in stride. The only reason it is on the 2nd set of
tires is that I felt iffy about tires becoming more than 12 years old.
They still had half their tread. My 4th (!) MTB rear tire after total of
only 2000mi is now bald. I get a measly 500mi out of each. Those are the
not so subtle differences in quality.

Now that I am self-employed and have moved every transport job possible
to road bike or MTB the car mileage is down to around 1000mi/year. The
bikes are together at roughly 3000-4000mi/year. And it's more fun :-)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Wed, 05 Aug 2015 07:28:47 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-04 6:59 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2015 07:05:53 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-03 6:07 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2015 11:27:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-03 10:38 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/3/2015 12:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-08-03 9:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:


That's a perfectly acceptable design that works for most people. Not
for you, so go buy something more robust.
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...33_-1___204741
The market is filled with supposedly indestructible water bottle
cages.

If you are that tough on bikes, then you need to make the investment
in higher quality parts.


Well, yeah, now I know that but mine was sold as a MTB-suitable bottle
holder. Haven't got X-ray eyes and even X-ray would not have seen this
coming.

It may be a fine MTB-suitable bottle holder. We know of only one
failure, for one guy who brags about his extreme riding.

Seems to me you need to find people whose riding is as rough as yours,
and ask their opinion before buying equipment. Perhaps an off-road
downhill racer forum might help you.


I don't know where you get that idea from. My riding is in no way
extreme, for road bikers yes but certainly not for mountain bikers. The
hardcore guys fly down rock gardens with both wheels off the ground and
occasionally you see them with some part of their body in a cast. I
don't do that sort of stuff. But I do ride uneven singletrack at 20mph
on occasion and expect MTB stuff to stomach that, which I think is not
too much to ask.

You are being silly. You know and, you have stated, that some tires
are more or less serviceable than others but you seem to be saying
that all bottle cages are, or should be, the same.

You are not being very constant in your quality control.


When one buys name brand stuff marketed for the planned application one
expects that the product lives up to that promise.

I see. You can buy a name brand "off the road" tire and it specifies
how many miles/hours/kilometers it will last?

I ask as you have complained about exactly that. Your expensive high
end tires didn't last long enough although I have never seen a tire
with a promise to last a specific time.


That case is not about lasting in terms of wear but about being able to
tolerate certain exposures of force, vibrations and such without
structural failure.

When I bought my car 18 years ago it was marketed as an offroad vehicle
that is also able to carry 1/2 a ton. It dutyfully does that, so far
nothing ever broke. That is what I call a product living up to a
manufacturer's promise.

With the tires my complaint is that they seem to be less than stellar
when it comes to longevity while automotive and dirt bike tires are.
Therefore, I no longer buy high end MTB tires because that doesn't make
any sense.


You said "When one buys name brand stuff marketed for the planned
application one expects that the product lives up to that promise."

Then you say, "With the tires my complaint is that they seem to be
less than stellar when it comes to longevity while automotive and dirt
bike tires are."

But, when I ask you whether you have seen off the road bike tires
advertised stating a service life in either distance or time, you
don't answer.

It appears that you decide that something is good or bad depending on
whether it meets your personal wants regardless of the fact that the
maker makes no promise at all.

Illogical isn't it.

As for your car being an "off the road" vehicle... Try bashing down
the rocky paths that you describe using your car with half ton
aboard. My own experiences prospecting in the central California
mountains was that even a four wheel drive jeep isn't really an off
the road vehicle as sold.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 05 Aug 2015 10:45:01 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-05 9:55 AM, Joe Riel wrote:
Joerg writes:

On 2015-08-04 6:59 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2015 07:05:53 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-03 6:07 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2015 11:27:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-03 10:38 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/3/2015 12:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-08-03 9:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:


That's a perfectly acceptable design that works for most people. Not
for you, so go buy something more robust.
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...33_-1___204741
The market is filled with supposedly indestructible water bottle
cages.

If you are that tough on bikes, then you need to make the investment
in higher quality parts.


Well, yeah, now I know that but mine was sold as a MTB-suitable bottle
holder. Haven't got X-ray eyes and even X-ray would not have seen this
coming.

It may be a fine MTB-suitable bottle holder. We know of only one
failure, for one guy who brags about his extreme riding.

Seems to me you need to find people whose riding is as rough as yours,
and ask their opinion before buying equipment. Perhaps an off-road
downhill racer forum might help you.


I don't know where you get that idea from. My riding is in no way
extreme, for road bikers yes but certainly not for mountain bikers. The
hardcore guys fly down rock gardens with both wheels off the ground and
occasionally you see them with some part of their body in a cast. I
don't do that sort of stuff. But I do ride uneven singletrack at 20mph
on occasion and expect MTB stuff to stomach that, which I think is not
too much to ask.

You are being silly. You know and, you have stated, that some tires
are more or less serviceable than others but you seem to be saying
that all bottle cages are, or should be, the same.

You are not being very constant in your quality control.


When one buys name brand stuff marketed for the planned application one
expects that the product lives up to that promise.

I see. You can buy a name brand "off the road" tire and it specifies
how many miles/hours/kilometers it will last?

I ask as you have complained about exactly that. Your expensive high
end tires didn't last long enough although I have never seen a tire
with a promise to last a specific time.


That case is not about lasting in terms of wear but about being able
to tolerate certain exposures of force, vibrations and such without
structural failure.

When I bought my car 18 years ago it was marketed as an offroad
vehicle that is also able to carry 1/2 a ton. It dutyfully does that,
so far nothing ever broke. That is what I call a product living up to
a manufacturer's promise.

On the other hand, you cannot recall the last time you put fuel
in it, so maybe it doesn't get quite the same level of abuse.


Correct, but that wasn't always the case. The car has almost 80000mi on
it. I used it a lot to commute and haul heavy stuff across unfriendly
turf. Getting loads of firewood or other gear across bumpy dirt roads is
brutal yet it took it in stride. The only reason it is on the 2nd set of
tires is that I felt iffy about tires becoming more than 12 years old.
They still had half their tread. My 4th (!) MTB rear tire after total of
only 2000mi is now bald. I get a measly 500mi out of each. Those are the
not so subtle differences in quality.

But "bumpy dirt roads" aren't "off the road". In fact it wasn't that
long ago that when bumpy dirt roads were considered normal farm roads
and nobody had even heard of an off the road vehicle.

Now that I am self-employed and have moved every transport job possible
to road bike or MTB the car mileage is down to around 1000mi/year. The
bikes are together at roughly 3000-4000mi/year. And it's more fun :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On 2015-08-05 6:49 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 05 Aug 2015 10:45:01 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-05 9:55 AM, Joe Riel wrote:
Joerg writes:

On 2015-08-04 6:59 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2015 07:05:53 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-03 6:07 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2015 11:27:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-03 10:38 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/3/2015 12:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-08-03 9:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:


That's a perfectly acceptable design that works for most people. Not
for you, so go buy something more robust.
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...33_-1___204741
The market is filled with supposedly indestructible water bottle
cages.

If you are that tough on bikes, then you need to make the investment
in higher quality parts.


Well, yeah, now I know that but mine was sold as a MTB-suitable bottle
holder. Haven't got X-ray eyes and even X-ray would not have seen this
coming.

It may be a fine MTB-suitable bottle holder. We know of only one
failure, for one guy who brags about his extreme riding.

Seems to me you need to find people whose riding is as rough as yours,
and ask their opinion before buying equipment. Perhaps an off-road
downhill racer forum might help you.


I don't know where you get that idea from. My riding is in no way
extreme, for road bikers yes but certainly not for mountain bikers. The
hardcore guys fly down rock gardens with both wheels off the ground and
occasionally you see them with some part of their body in a cast. I
don't do that sort of stuff. But I do ride uneven singletrack at 20mph
on occasion and expect MTB stuff to stomach that, which I think is not
too much to ask.

You are being silly. You know and, you have stated, that some tires
are more or less serviceable than others but you seem to be saying
that all bottle cages are, or should be, the same.

You are not being very constant in your quality control.


When one buys name brand stuff marketed for the planned application one
expects that the product lives up to that promise.

I see. You can buy a name brand "off the road" tire and it specifies
how many miles/hours/kilometers it will last?

I ask as you have complained about exactly that. Your expensive high
end tires didn't last long enough although I have never seen a tire
with a promise to last a specific time.


That case is not about lasting in terms of wear but about being able
to tolerate certain exposures of force, vibrations and such without
structural failure.

When I bought my car 18 years ago it was marketed as an offroad
vehicle that is also able to carry 1/2 a ton. It dutyfully does that,
so far nothing ever broke. That is what I call a product living up to
a manufacturer's promise.

On the other hand, you cannot recall the last time you put fuel
in it, so maybe it doesn't get quite the same level of abuse.


Correct, but that wasn't always the case. The car has almost 80000mi on
it. I used it a lot to commute and haul heavy stuff across unfriendly
turf. Getting loads of firewood or other gear across bumpy dirt roads is
brutal yet it took it in stride. The only reason it is on the 2nd set of
tires is that I felt iffy about tires becoming more than 12 years old.
They still had half their tread. My 4th (!) MTB rear tire after total of
only 2000mi is now bald. I get a measly 500mi out of each. Those are the
not so subtle differences in quality.

But "bumpy dirt roads" aren't "off the road". In fact it wasn't that
long ago that when bumpy dirt roads were considered normal farm roads
and nobody had even heard of an off the road vehicle.


For the vehicle it's about the same thing. I travel a dirt road every
week. Until early last year I used my car, now my MTB. It rattles and
shakes a lot. When I head towards Placerville or towards Folsom via the
singletrack route it shakes just about the same and that is offroad use.

Also, forest paths or what some people out here call a driveway
(essentially like a dirt road to a ranch) is really not something you
could call road.

My car has to stomach a lot more than the MTB. This is because with 1/2
a ton in there the rear suspension will hit the hard stops all the time.
I never have my MTB loaded that heavily and AFAICT never bottomed out
its shocks.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2015-08-05 6:49 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 05 Aug 2015 07:28:47 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-04 6:59 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2015 07:05:53 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-03 6:07 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2015 11:27:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-03 10:38 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/3/2015 12:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-08-03 9:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:


That's a perfectly acceptable design that works for most people. Not
for you, so go buy something more robust.
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...33_-1___204741
The market is filled with supposedly indestructible water bottle
cages.

If you are that tough on bikes, then you need to make the investment
in higher quality parts.


Well, yeah, now I know that but mine was sold as a MTB-suitable bottle
holder. Haven't got X-ray eyes and even X-ray would not have seen this
coming.

It may be a fine MTB-suitable bottle holder. We know of only one
failure, for one guy who brags about his extreme riding.

Seems to me you need to find people whose riding is as rough as yours,
and ask their opinion before buying equipment. Perhaps an off-road
downhill racer forum might help you.


I don't know where you get that idea from. My riding is in no way
extreme, for road bikers yes but certainly not for mountain bikers. The
hardcore guys fly down rock gardens with both wheels off the ground and
occasionally you see them with some part of their body in a cast. I
don't do that sort of stuff. But I do ride uneven singletrack at 20mph
on occasion and expect MTB stuff to stomach that, which I think is not
too much to ask.

You are being silly. You know and, you have stated, that some tires
are more or less serviceable than others but you seem to be saying
that all bottle cages are, or should be, the same.

You are not being very constant in your quality control.


When one buys name brand stuff marketed for the planned application one
expects that the product lives up to that promise.

I see. You can buy a name brand "off the road" tire and it specifies
how many miles/hours/kilometers it will last?

I ask as you have complained about exactly that. Your expensive high
end tires didn't last long enough although I have never seen a tire
with a promise to last a specific time.


That case is not about lasting in terms of wear but about being able to
tolerate certain exposures of force, vibrations and such without
structural failure.

When I bought my car 18 years ago it was marketed as an offroad vehicle
that is also able to carry 1/2 a ton. It dutyfully does that, so far
nothing ever broke. That is what I call a product living up to a
manufacturer's promise.

With the tires my complaint is that they seem to be less than stellar
when it comes to longevity while automotive and dirt bike tires are.
Therefore, I no longer buy high end MTB tires because that doesn't make
any sense.


You said "When one buys name brand stuff marketed for the planned
application one expects that the product lives up to that promise."

Then you say, "With the tires my complaint is that they seem to be
less than stellar when it comes to longevity while automotive and dirt
bike tires are."

But, when I ask you whether you have seen off the road bike tires
advertised stating a service life in either distance or time, you
don't answer.


I did say that, for example, MTB tires (and other bicycle tires) have
wimpy sidewalls. Many are lost prematurely because of that flaw.
Regarding tread life they don't state a mileage but c'mon, 500 miles is
truly the pits here.


It appears that you decide that something is good or bad depending on
whether it meets your personal wants regardless of the fact that the
maker makes no promise at all.

Illogical isn't it.


No, it is not. My first MTB tires cost $55 a pop and the rear one lasted
500mi. My SUV rear tires cost around $80 a pop and they last well over
50000mi. Don't you see that? It can hardly become any clearer which is
good and which is bad.

Other example: One of my MTB buddies is also a dirt biker and he uses
his Suzuki dual sport way more brutally than I use my MTB. Yet his
expenses per mile are way lower. For example, a rear tire for around
$70-80 last him thousands of miles.


As for your car being an "off the road" vehicle... Try bashing down
the rocky paths that you describe using your car with half ton
aboard. My own experiences prospecting in the central California
mountains was that even a four wheel drive jeep isn't really an off
the road vehicle as sold.


I've posted it several times. This is the kind of road my car has been
"bashed down" a lot and it is not very different from the turf my MTB is
being "bashed down":

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chapparal1.JPG

There are areas where I can pass 4WD Jeeps on my MTB and even ride more
comfortably than their drivers. But that is because the axles on my MTB
aren't as far apart and it can thus follow the turf much easier without
bottoming out. And it is way narrower. So a dirt bike is a better
comparison there and their tires and chains and stuff last many times
longer than MTB stuff.

Anyway, I've partially solved that problem for me by buying tires, brake
pads and whatnot from cheaper Asian source. That is not good at all for
Western manufacturers but that's no my problem, it's theirs and it is
home-made.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 2:17:09 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
No, it is not. My first MTB tires cost $55 a pop and the rear one lasted
500mi. My SUV rear tires cost around $80 a pop and they last well over
50000mi. Don't you see that? It can hardly become any clearer which is
good and which is bad.

Other example: One of my MTB buddies is also a dirt biker and he uses
his Suzuki dual sport way more brutally than I use my MTB. Yet his
expenses per mile are way lower. For example, a rear tire for around
$70-80 last him thousands of miles.



--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Ah come on Joerg!

Both car tires and dirt bike tires have a heck of a lot more material in them than an mtb tire doess. Cars and dirt bikes have mechanical power plants and thus they don't care about weight or rolling resistance.

Maybe you should fill your tires with RTV rubber and make them solid. You'll have a lot fewer flats and no worries about blowouts.

Cheers

On 2015-08-06 12:05 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 2:17:09 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
No, it is not. My first MTB tires cost $55 a pop and the rear one
lasted 500mi. My SUV rear tires cost around $80 a pop and they last
well over 50000mi. Don't you see that? It can hardly become any
clearer which is good and which is bad.

Other example: One of my MTB buddies is also a dirt biker and he
uses his Suzuki dual sport way more brutally than I use my MTB. Yet
his expenses per mile are way lower. For example, a rear tire for
around $70-80 last him thousands of miles.



-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Ah come on Joerg!

Both car tires and dirt bike tires have a heck of a lot more material
in them than an mtb tire doess. Cars and dirt bikes have mechanical
power plants and thus they don't care about weight or rolling
resistance.


That's no excuse at all. There is definitely a market for thicker MTB
tires. Like me, many riders do not care about weight. All they care
about is getting there without equipment failure.

In cars they do care about rolling resistance and weight. Ever since the
government put on the thumb screws WRT fleet gas mileage.


Maybe you should fill your tires with RTV rubber and make them solid.
You'll have a lot fewer flats and no worries about blowouts.


I did something similar. Tubes with 0.160 (about 4mm) wall thickness,
motorcycle grade. Plus Mr.Tuffy MTB tire liners. Plus old tubes over the
tire liners. Number of flats since that change: Zero.

It's great. For example, I can do a courtesy job for other rides by
steamrolling over yellow star thistle. Without a worry in the sky about
their thorns. And it works, there are now areas on the trail where I and
thus others don't have to lift the legs anymore to avoid bloody scratches.

If there was any chance to mount the front tire of a small dirt bike
onto my MTB I would instantly do so.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Thu, 06 Aug 2015 11:17:13 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-05 6:49 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 05 Aug 2015 07:28:47 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-04 6:59 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 04 Aug 2015 07:05:53 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-03 6:07 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 03 Aug 2015 11:27:17 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2015-08-03 10:38 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/3/2015 12:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-08-03 9:27 AM, jbeattie wrote:


That's a perfectly acceptable design that works for most people. Not
for you, so go buy something more robust.
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product...33_-1___204741
The market is filled with supposedly indestructible water bottle
cages.

If you are that tough on bikes, then you need to make the investment
in higher quality parts.


Well, yeah, now I know that but mine was sold as a MTB-suitable bottle
holder. Haven't got X-ray eyes and even X-ray would not have seen this
coming.

It may be a fine MTB-suitable bottle holder. We know of only one
failure, for one guy who brags about his extreme riding.

Seems to me you need to find people whose riding is as rough as yours,
and ask their opinion before buying equipment. Perhaps an off-road
downhill racer forum might help you.


I don't know where you get that idea from. My riding is in no way
extreme, for road bikers yes but certainly not for mountain bikers. The
hardcore guys fly down rock gardens with both wheels off the ground and
occasionally you see them with some part of their body in a cast. I
don't do that sort of stuff. But I do ride uneven singletrack at 20mph
on occasion and expect MTB stuff to stomach that, which I think is not
too much to ask.

You are being silly. You know and, you have stated, that some tires
are more or less serviceable than others but you seem to be saying
that all bottle cages are, or should be, the same.

You are not being very constant in your quality control.


When one buys name brand stuff marketed for the planned application one
expects that the product lives up to that promise.

I see. You can buy a name brand "off the road" tire and it specifies
how many miles/hours/kilometers it will last?

I ask as you have complained about exactly that. Your expensive high
end tires didn't last long enough although I have never seen a tire
with a promise to last a specific time.


That case is not about lasting in terms of wear but about being able to
tolerate certain exposures of force, vibrations and such without
structural failure.

When I bought my car 18 years ago it was marketed as an offroad vehicle
that is also able to carry 1/2 a ton. It dutyfully does that, so far
nothing ever broke. That is what I call a product living up to a
manufacturer's promise.

With the tires my complaint is that they seem to be less than stellar
when it comes to longevity while automotive and dirt bike tires are.
Therefore, I no longer buy high end MTB tires because that doesn't make
any sense.


You said "When one buys name brand stuff marketed for the planned
application one expects that the product lives up to that promise."

Then you say, "With the tires my complaint is that they seem to be
less than stellar when it comes to longevity while automotive and dirt
bike tires are."

But, when I ask you whether you have seen off the road bike tires
advertised stating a service life in either distance or time, you
don't answer.


I did say that, for example, MTB tires (and other bicycle tires) have
wimpy sidewalls. Many are lost prematurely because of that flaw.
Regarding tread life they don't state a mileage but c'mon, 500 miles is
truly the pits here.


It appears that you decide that something is good or bad depending on
whether it meets your personal wants regardless of the fact that the
maker makes no promise at all.

Illogical isn't it.


No, it is not. My first MTB tires cost $55 a pop and the rear one lasted
500mi. My SUV rear tires cost around $80 a pop and they last well over
50000mi. Don't you see that? It can hardly become any clearer which is
good and which is bad.

Other example: One of my MTB buddies is also a dirt biker and he uses
his Suzuki dual sport way more brutally than I use my MTB. Yet his
expenses per mile are way lower. For example, a rear tire for around
$70-80 last him thousands of miles.


As for your car being an "off the road" vehicle... Try bashing down
the rocky paths that you describe using your car with half ton
aboard. My own experiences prospecting in the central California
mountains was that even a four wheel drive jeep isn't really an off
the road vehicle as sold.


I've posted it several times. This is the kind of road my car has been
"bashed down" a lot and it is not very different from the turf my MTB is
being "bashed down":

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chapparal1.JPG

There are areas where I can pass 4WD Jeeps on my MTB and even ride more
comfortably than their drivers. But that is because the axles on my MTB
aren't as far apart and it can thus follow the turf much easier without
bottoming out. And it is way narrower. So a dirt bike is a better
comparison there and their tires and chains and stuff last many times
longer than MTB stuff.

Anyway, I've partially solved that problem for me by buying tires, brake
pads and whatnot from cheaper Asian source. That is not good at all for
Western manufacturers but that's no my problem, it's theirs and it is
home-made.

You make much over nothing. You weep and cry about the cost per mile
of a pastime, a non essential activity, when the solution is so
simple.

If you can't afford to engage in a pastime just stop doing it. On the
other hand, if you elect to continue one can only speculate on why you
continue with an activity that is so obviously painful and expensive.

Is the word "masochist" a part of your vocabulary?

--
cheers,

John B.