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#21
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Homeless in Seattle
On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:01:22 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 4/22/2019 7:30 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 19:13:30 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 4/22/2019 6:15 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 13:49:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 12:33:02 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 12:01:42 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Thursday, April 18, 2019 at 9:48:53 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: Some posters here have gone on and on about homeless people, and specifically homeless people in Seattle. Here are interesting details about one of them: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...ss-in-seattle/ -- - Frank Krygowski This is pretty much the same in every single state controlled by Democrats. It is a sickness that cannot be cured. So the staggering number of homeless in Texas can be cured? Why is homelessness so low in Bernie Sanders' home state of Vermont? https://www.usich.gov/tools-for-action/map/#fn[]=1400&fn[]=2900&fn[]=6000&fn[]=9900&fn[]=13500 -- Jay Beattie. Come on Jay, Vermont has a relatively tiny population and it is a state that makes Washington state look like Hawaii. And yet Vermont has about half the RATE of homelessness as Washington. Oregon with a little better weather conditions than Washington has a little worse homeless rate. You can check out the weather in those areas - while Vermont has bad weather in the winter, relatively New Hampshire has a long sea coast heated by the Gulf Stream and the slightly better weather translates into more homeless. Err... New Hampshire's "long seacoast" is 18 miles long :-) The average daily highs in that area are (average December, January and February) 35 degrees (F) and nightly lows are 12 degrees (F). It is strange, growing up in New Hampshire there just didn't seem to have been any "homeless". There were "Hobo's", who were homeless, but they migrated to more hospitable climes during the winters. more homeless update: https://700wlw.iheart.com/featured/s...-poop-problem/ https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...95311913604074 It would seem to be a benefit to any non-paved area as: "Empirical research has shown that the use of manure significantly improves crop yield, soil fertility and water and moisture conservation." Well, sorta. This environmental remediation firm specifically lists 'homeless camp cleanup' as a possibly dangerous situation: https://www.georgiaclean.com/feces-c...s-a-biohazard/ And then this: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...phus-Empirical research has shown that the use of manure significantly improves crop yield, soil fertility and water and moisture conservation. -medieval-diseases-spreading-homeless/584380/ These sort of diseases are not spread by feces but rather by fleas on rats and person to person contacts although I seem to remember stories that tuberculosis could be spread by drinking unpasteurized milk. Maybe an urban area with tons of human waste isn't exactly like a small compost pile at the end of the garden. No, you need to spread it out and dry it, then it is easy to transport (much lighter) and "keeps" longer. -- Cheers, John B. |
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#23
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Homeless in Seattle
On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 6:34:19 PM UTC-5, John B. Slocomb wrote:
I find it interesting that Mississippi, which has about the highest poverty level in the U.S., about 22% also has the lowest homeless rate at (2016) some 1,738 individuals, some 0.05 % of the population. Indiana, the second lowest level of homeless has shown a drop in the numbers of homeless of some 16% since 2010. John B. I think because "homeless" is not a statistically verifiable fact, its very easy for these Republican states, governors, to simply say "We have no homeless in Mississippi or Indiana." And besides, homeless are poor people, and they don't count. |
#24
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Homeless in Seattle
On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 22:10:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 4/22/2019 8:13 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 4/22/2019 6:15 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 13:49:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 12:33:02 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 12:01:42 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Thursday, April 18, 2019 at 9:48:53 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: Some posters here have gone on and on about homeless people, and specifically homeless people in Seattle. Here are interesting details about one of them: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...ss-in-seattle/ -- - Frank Krygowski This is pretty much the same in every single state controlled by Democrats. It is a sickness that cannot be cured. So the staggering number of homeless in Texas can be cured? Why is homelessness so low in Bernie Sanders' home state of Vermont? https://www.usich.gov/tools-for-action/map/#fn[]=1400&fn[]=2900&fn[]=6000&fn[]=9900&fn[]=13500 -- Jay Beattie. Come on Jay, Vermont has a relatively tiny population and it is a state that makes Washington state look like Hawaii. And yet Vermont has about half the RATE of homelessness as Washington. Oregon with a little better weather conditions than Washington has a little worse homeless rate. You can check out the weather in those areas - while Vermont has bad weather in the winter, relatively New Hampshire has a long sea coast heated by the Gulf Stream and the slightly better weather translates into more homeless. Err... New Hampshire's "long seacoast" is 18 miles long :-) The average daily highs in that area are (average December, January and February) 35 degrees (F) and nightly lows are 12 degrees (F). It is strange, growing up in New Hampshire there just didn't seem to have been any "homeless". There were "Hobo's", who were homeless, but they migrated to more hospitable climes during the winters. more homeless update: https://700wlw.iheart.com/featured/s...-poop-problem/ To paraphrase Mark Twain (or perhaps someone else): Just like the weather, everybody talks about the homeless problem but nobody does anything about it. Apparently the homeless have existed in the U.S., essentially since the place was first settled and substantial numbers of the "immigrants" were actually Vagabonds, an English term to describe those without a job or place to live. According to: http://www.earlyamericancrime.com/co...ges/overview-2 "From the time of the first settlers to the American Revolution, close to three quarters of all immigrants to the thirteen American colonies arrived on American shores without their freedom, coming over as slaves, convicts, or indentured servants. Even during the seventeenth century only 33 percent of immigrants to America were free" Of course, once an indentured servant completed his indenture he might be given land, there was plenty of it about, and with the ownership of "property" gain the privilege of voting. I suspect that the modern "homeless" may well be simply a part of the urbanization of the country. When a large majority of the population lived on farms there was always work to be had but when the big move to the cities (where the money is) there were fewer unskilled jobs available. Than came the decentralization of factories and cities like Detroit almost literally died with the loss of work. Now of course, with computerization there is even fewer jobs available and more of them require specialized technical knowledge that just isn't available to all and sundry. There are, for example, some 50,000 licensed taxi drivers in New York City. With the advent of driverless vehicles some 50,000 might be out of a job. Is there any work available for them? -- Cheers, John B. |
#25
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Homeless in Seattle
On 4/22/2019 10:42 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 22:10:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/22/2019 8:13 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 4/22/2019 6:15 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 13:49:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 12:33:02 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 12:01:42 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Thursday, April 18, 2019 at 9:48:53 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: Some posters here have gone on and on about homeless people, and specifically homeless people in Seattle. Here are interesting details about one of them: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...ss-in-seattle/ -- - Frank Krygowski This is pretty much the same in every single state controlled by Democrats. It is a sickness that cannot be cured. So the staggering number of homeless in Texas can be cured? Why is homelessness so low in Bernie Sanders' home state of Vermont? https://www.usich.gov/tools-for-action/map/#fn[]=1400&fn[]=2900&fn[]=6000&fn[]=9900&fn[]=13500 -- Jay Beattie. Come on Jay, Vermont has a relatively tiny population and it is a state that makes Washington state look like Hawaii. And yet Vermont has about half the RATE of homelessness as Washington. Oregon with a little better weather conditions than Washington has a little worse homeless rate. You can check out the weather in those areas - while Vermont has bad weather in the winter, relatively New Hampshire has a long sea coast heated by the Gulf Stream and the slightly better weather translates into more homeless. Err... New Hampshire's "long seacoast" is 18 miles long :-) The average daily highs in that area are (average December, January and February) 35 degrees (F) and nightly lows are 12 degrees (F). It is strange, growing up in New Hampshire there just didn't seem to have been any "homeless". There were "Hobo's", who were homeless, but they migrated to more hospitable climes during the winters. more homeless update: https://700wlw.iheart.com/featured/s...-poop-problem/ To paraphrase Mark Twain (or perhaps someone else): Just like the weather, everybody talks about the homeless problem but nobody does anything about it. Apparently the homeless have existed in the U.S., essentially since the place was first settled and substantial numbers of the "immigrants" were actually Vagabonds, an English term to describe those without a job or place to live. According to: http://www.earlyamericancrime.com/co...ges/overview-2 "From the time of the first settlers to the American Revolution, close to three quarters of all immigrants to the thirteen American colonies arrived on American shores without their freedom, coming over as slaves, convicts, or indentured servants. Even during the seventeenth century only 33 percent of immigrants to America were free" Of course, once an indentured servant completed his indenture he might be given land, there was plenty of it about, and with the ownership of "property" gain the privilege of voting. I suspect that the modern "homeless" may well be simply a part of the urbanization of the country. When a large majority of the population lived on farms there was always work to be had but when the big move to the cities (where the money is) there were fewer unskilled jobs available. Than came the decentralization of factories and cities like Detroit almost literally died with the loss of work. Now of course, with computerization there is even fewer jobs available and more of them require specialized technical knowledge that just isn't available to all and sundry. There are, for example, some 50,000 licensed taxi drivers in New York City. With the advent of driverless vehicles some 50,000 might be out of a job. Is there any work available for them? I agree, that's probably one of the roots of the problem. And I don't see it getting better. Our economic system generates more profits to those who reduce expenses, and employees are seen as expenses. In a three shift factory, one robot can easily replace three workers, and probably more. It can often pay for itself quite quickly even without the benefits of more consistent operation, better quality control, etc. But even the most charitable auto manufacturer (for a wildly theoretical example) couldn't say "I'm not going to use robots. I'm going to continue giving people jobs by doing things by hand." If the company did that, it would soon go bankrupt. The problem isn't just robots, though. It's all through commerce. Grocery stores and hardware stores near me have more "self checkout" stations than cashier stations. I no longer get to call a company and have a receptionist direct my call; instead, I listen to a minute of menu choices and try to navigate to my intended contact by pressing buttons myself, or by shouting into their voice recognition system. This trend even infects volunteer work. Our club newsletter used to be done by a team of friends working at someone's kitchen table, doing literal cut-and-pasting. (The newsletter won a national award back in those days.) Now it can be done only by the few club members with Desktop Publishing experience. But take heart. The rich are getting richer at an ever faster pace, so all is not lost. :-/ -- - Frank Krygowski |
#26
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Homeless in Seattle
On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:48:08 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/22/2019 10:42 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 22:10:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/22/2019 8:13 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 4/22/2019 6:15 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 13:49:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 12:33:02 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 12:01:42 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Thursday, April 18, 2019 at 9:48:53 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: Some posters here have gone on and on about homeless people, and specifically homeless people in Seattle. Here are interesting details about one of them: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...ss-in-seattle/ -- - Frank Krygowski This is pretty much the same in every single state controlled by Democrats. It is a sickness that cannot be cured. So the staggering number of homeless in Texas can be cured? Why is homelessness so low in Bernie Sanders' home state of Vermont? https://www.usich.gov/tools-for-action/map/#fn[]=1400&fn[]=2900&fn[]=6000&fn[]=9900&fn[]=13500 -- Jay Beattie. Come on Jay, Vermont has a relatively tiny population and it is a state that makes Washington state look like Hawaii. And yet Vermont has about half the RATE of homelessness as Washington. Oregon with a little better weather conditions than Washington has a little worse homeless rate. You can check out the weather in those areas - while Vermont has bad weather in the winter, relatively New Hampshire has a long sea coast heated by the Gulf Stream and the slightly better weather translates into more homeless. Err... New Hampshire's "long seacoast" is 18 miles long :-) The average daily highs in that area are (average December, January and February) 35 degrees (F) and nightly lows are 12 degrees (F). It is strange, growing up in New Hampshire there just didn't seem to have been any "homeless". There were "Hobo's", who were homeless, but they migrated to more hospitable climes during the winters. more homeless update: https://700wlw.iheart.com/featured/s...-poop-problem/ To paraphrase Mark Twain (or perhaps someone else): Just like the weather, everybody talks about the homeless problem but nobody does anything about it. Apparently the homeless have existed in the U.S., essentially since the place was first settled and substantial numbers of the "immigrants" were actually Vagabonds, an English term to describe those without a job or place to live. According to: http://www.earlyamericancrime.com/co...ges/overview-2 "From the time of the first settlers to the American Revolution, close to three quarters of all immigrants to the thirteen American colonies arrived on American shores without their freedom, coming over as slaves, convicts, or indentured servants. Even during the seventeenth century only 33 percent of immigrants to America were free" Of course, once an indentured servant completed his indenture he might be given land, there was plenty of it about, and with the ownership of "property" gain the privilege of voting. I suspect that the modern "homeless" may well be simply a part of the urbanization of the country. When a large majority of the population lived on farms there was always work to be had but when the big move to the cities (where the money is) there were fewer unskilled jobs available. Than came the decentralization of factories and cities like Detroit almost literally died with the loss of work. Now of course, with computerization there is even fewer jobs available and more of them require specialized technical knowledge that just isn't available to all and sundry. There are, for example, some 50,000 licensed taxi drivers in New York City. With the advent of driverless vehicles some 50,000 might be out of a job. Is there any work available for them? I agree, that's probably one of the roots of the problem. And I don't see it getting better. Our economic system generates more profits to those who reduce expenses, and employees are seen as expenses. In a three shift factory, one robot can easily replace three workers, and probably more. It can often pay for itself quite quickly even without the benefits of more consistent operation, better quality control, etc. But even the most charitable auto manufacturer (for a wildly theoretical example) couldn't say "I'm not going to use robots. I'm going to continue giving people jobs by doing things by hand." If the company did that, it would soon go bankrupt. The problem isn't just robots, though. It's all through commerce. Grocery stores and hardware stores near me have more "self checkout" stations than cashier stations. I no longer get to call a company and have a receptionist direct my call; instead, I listen to a minute of menu choices and try to navigate to my intended contact by pressing buttons myself, or by shouting into their voice recognition system. This trend even infects volunteer work. Our club newsletter used to be done by a team of friends working at someone's kitchen table, doing literal cut-and-pasting. (The newsletter won a national award back in those days.) Now it can be done only by the few club members with Desktop Publishing experience. But take heart. The rich are getting richer at an ever faster pace, so all is not lost. :-/ We have historically low unemployment and tying homelessness to the non-availability of jobs is difficult. A more serious problem is that existing jobs do not pay enough to keep up with escalating housing prices. You have to wonder, however, how many homeless are economically displaced versus drug addled or insane. Very few of the homeless I see are simply down on their luck and unable to find a cheap apartment. It's not Hooverville out there -- it looks more like a scene out of the Walking Dead. I have no idea what one does for those people within the confines of modern morality. -- Jay Beattie. |
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Homeless in Seattle
On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 10:48:08 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Our economic system generates more profits to those who reduce expenses, and employees are seen as expenses. -- - Frank Krygowski Yes, one of the economic problems with slavery. There are many moral problems with slavery of course. But in current and even past times when employees can be paid a subsistence wage or minimum wage, it is much cheaper to hire people at poverty wages than it is to have slaves. Slaves, because they are personal property, require food, housing, medical care. All of which adds up to much more than subsistence wages paid to desperate employees. Employee wages are of course a tax deductible expense. Not sure how slave owners dealt with slave upkeep expenses. Actually not sure when the US started the federal income taxes. Maybe it was after slavery officially ended.. |
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Homeless in Seattle
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Homeless in Seattle
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 11:48:03 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 4/22/2019 10:42 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 22:10:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/22/2019 8:13 PM, AMuzi wrote: On 4/22/2019 6:15 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote: On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 13:49:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 12:33:02 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, April 19, 2019 at 12:01:42 PM UTC-7, wrote: On Thursday, April 18, 2019 at 9:48:53 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: Some posters here have gone on and on about homeless people, and specifically homeless people in Seattle. Here are interesting details about one of them: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...ss-in-seattle/ -- - Frank Krygowski This is pretty much the same in every single state controlled by Democrats. It is a sickness that cannot be cured. So the staggering number of homeless in Texas can be cured? Why is homelessness so low in Bernie Sanders' home state of Vermont? https://www.usich.gov/tools-for-action/map/#fn[]=1400&fn[]=2900&fn[]=6000&fn[]=9900&fn[]=13500 -- Jay Beattie. Come on Jay, Vermont has a relatively tiny population and it is a state that makes Washington state look like Hawaii. And yet Vermont has about half the RATE of homelessness as Washington. Oregon with a little better weather conditions than Washington has a little worse homeless rate. You can check out the weather in those areas - while Vermont has bad weather in the winter, relatively New Hampshire has a long sea coast heated by the Gulf Stream and the slightly better weather translates into more homeless. Err... New Hampshire's "long seacoast" is 18 miles long :-) The average daily highs in that area are (average December, January and February) 35 degrees (F) and nightly lows are 12 degrees (F). It is strange, growing up in New Hampshire there just didn't seem to have been any "homeless". There were "Hobo's", who were homeless, but they migrated to more hospitable climes during the winters. more homeless update: https://700wlw.iheart.com/featured/s...-poop-problem/ To paraphrase Mark Twain (or perhaps someone else): Just like the weather, everybody talks about the homeless problem but nobody does anything about it. Apparently the homeless have existed in the U.S., essentially since the place was first settled and substantial numbers of the "immigrants" were actually Vagabonds, an English term to describe those without a job or place to live. According to: http://www.earlyamericancrime.com/co...ges/overview-2 "From the time of the first settlers to the American Revolution, close to three quarters of all immigrants to the thirteen American colonies arrived on American shores without their freedom, coming over as slaves, convicts, or indentured servants. Even during the seventeenth century only 33 percent of immigrants to America were free" Of course, once an indentured servant completed his indenture he might be given land, there was plenty of it about, and with the ownership of "property" gain the privilege of voting. I suspect that the modern "homeless" may well be simply a part of the urbanization of the country. When a large majority of the population lived on farms there was always work to be had but when the big move to the cities (where the money is) there were fewer unskilled jobs available. Than came the decentralization of factories and cities like Detroit almost literally died with the loss of work. Now of course, with computerization there is even fewer jobs available and more of them require specialized technical knowledge that just isn't available to all and sundry. There are, for example, some 50,000 licensed taxi drivers in New York City. With the advent of driverless vehicles some 50,000 might be out of a job. Is there any work available for them? I agree, that's probably one of the roots of the problem. And I don't see it getting better. Our economic system generates more profits to those who reduce expenses, and employees are seen as expenses. In a three shift factory, one robot can easily replace three workers, and probably more. It can often pay for itself quite quickly even without the benefits of more consistent operation, better quality control, etc. You can ask Muzi, but my experience is that humans are expensive, far more expensive in a (say) one year construction contract than the equipment. After all, when the project is completed you can sell the used equipment :-) But even the most charitable auto manufacturer (for a wildly theoretical example) couldn't say "I'm not going to use robots. I'm going to continue giving people jobs by doing things by hand." If the company did that, it would soon go bankrupt. The problem isn't just robots, though. It's all through commerce. Grocery stores and hardware stores near me have more "self checkout" stations than cashier stations. I no longer get to call a company and have a receptionist direct my call; instead, I listen to a minute of menu choices and try to navigate to my intended contact by pressing buttons myself, or by shouting into their voice recognition system. True. and of course, not only are employees expensive to have around because of their salary but you need an office and at least one accountant to keep track of all the with-holdings, insurance, taxes, etc. Added to that, of course, is the fact that robots don't steal but humans sometimes do. Employee theft is a problem in those companies that still have large work staffs. This trend even infects volunteer work. Our club newsletter used to be done by a team of friends working at someone's kitchen table, doing literal cut-and-pasting. (The newsletter won a national award back in those days.) Now it can be done only by the few club members with Desktop Publishing experience. But take heart. The rich are getting richer at an ever faster pace, so all is not lost. :-/ But why ever not, after all they get up and go to work early and hustle all day. -- Cheers, John B. |
#30
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Homeless in Seattle
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 11:00:21 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 10:48:08 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote: Our economic system generates more profits to those who reduce expenses, and employees are seen as expenses. -- - Frank Krygowski Yes, one of the economic problems with slavery. There are many moral problems with slavery of course. But in current and even past times when employees can be paid a subsistence wage or minimum wage, it is much cheaper to hire people at poverty wages than it is to have slaves. Slaves, because they are personal property, require food, housing, medical care. All of which adds up to much more than subsistence wages paid to desperate employees. Employee wages are of course a tax deductible expense. Not sure how slave owners dealt with slave upkeep expenses. Actually not sure when the US started the federal income taxes. Maybe it was after slavery officially ended. :-) A federal income tax was originally enacted on October 1913. According to: Slave Prices in the Lower South, 1722-1815 Peter C. Mancall, Joshua L. Rosenbloom, Thomas Weiss University of Kansas In 1815 the median price of a male slave was $500 (which is !$7,958.44 in 2017). Salaries for a skilled craftsman, in Massachusetts, in 1815, was in the range of $2.00 a day, for unskilled workers it was in the $1.00 a day range. So yes, as the North had learned, hiring help was cheaper, at least for those who didn't operate a large plantation, was cheaper than buying and maintaining slaves. -- Cheers, John B. |
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