Do cyclists make better motorcyclists?

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:13:46 -0700, Benjamin Lewis
wrote:

wrote:

I agree that pros with races on the line may corner harder
than we do, or that some of you (I can't say us) corner
harder on descents.

But most bicycling does not involve the kind of braking and
cornering that's routine on motorcycles because most
bicycling takes place at only 10 to 20 mph.

That just means that "hard cornering" occurs at a smaller turning radius,
so this is only true if you're talking about bicycles and motorcycles
riding on the same or similar course (and perhaps you are; I'm just jumping
in at random )

Dear Benjamin,

True, I'm assuming similar courses.

But the speed of most bicycle riding is limited not by the
curves, but by the feeble motors. I doubt, for example, that
Armstrong got up the Alp d'Huez that fast because of his
cornering technique.

Apart from one-way downhills, are there any bicycle races in
which cornering is the deciding factor? That is, races in
which riders who are roughly as fast on the straights are
helpless to keep up because they corner too slowly?

I know little about bicycle racing, so I'm curious if I'm
missing something here. I certainly don't see much about
cornering here on rec.bicycles.tech.

Carl Fogel

Some people have good all-around athletic ability, and they will be good on
whatever they ride--horses, jet skiis, road bikes, mountain bikes and
motorcycles. Others will look clumsy on a bicycle, and chances are they
would make dangerous motorcycle riders. Chances are that a person without
natural ability and coordination will not develop any skills to carry over.

Some people have good all-around athletic ability, and they will be good on
whatever they ride--horses, jet skiis, road bikes, mountain bikes and
motorcycles. Others will look clumsy on a bicycle, and chances are they
would make dangerous motorcycle riders. Chances are that a person without
natural ability and coordination will not develop any skills to carry over.

dw wrote:

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

No.

dw wrote:

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

No.

In article ,
"Tom Nakashima" wrote:

wrote in message
...

Cornering isn't terribly important on bicycles, despite our
proud claims to the contrary. You don't hear much about
Lance Armstrong out-cornering the competition because
bicycling is mostly slow-motion drag-racing. We usually
pedal around at speeds so low that we wouldn't catch the eye
of a traffic cop running a speed trap in a school zone.
Carl Fogel

Cornering isn't terribly important on bicycles?
Have to disagree, and you may too if you've ever been in fast descents on a
bicycle, where picking your line is important. I'm not sure if you remember
the 1997 Tour de France when Richard Virenque was trying to put Jan Ullrich
at great risk in the corners on one of the mountain states. The roads were
wet and slick as Jan had pretty poor descending skills in the rain.
Virenque knew this and took advantage of his winter training in the French
alps. Ullrich nearly crashed and could have changed the outcome of the
finish of the Tour, but he played it safe and let Richard have his day.
Ulrich went on to win the Tour and the rest is history.

Pardon me as I use this same anecdote to derive the opposite
interpretation: Richard Virenque, a very good climber and superb
descender with 7 King of the Mountains jerseys, was able to use his
descending skills to steal a stage from Ullrich, who ultimately backed
off rather than risk a little more on the descent.

Ullrich, a notoriously poor descender, won that Tour de France, has
finished on the GC podium in every Tour he has contested except the last
one, has six TdF stage wins, won a Vuelta, an Olympic road race, and is
generally considered a much stronger rider than Virenque.

So in a circumstance where the prize to be won (a TdF stage) was much
more valuable to Virenque than to Ullrich (who had his eyes on the
yellow jersey, not a stuffed lion), and on a day of difficult
conditions, Virenque was able to use his better descent to put Ullrich
in difficulty. It's clear that on that particular day Ullrich's
descending cost him a prize, but it seems that is one of the few days in
which Ullrich's palmares suffered from his failings.

I ride both, motorcycles, and bicycles, and ride them fast in the corners if
I'm familiar with the road, or can visibly see the road ahead.
Cornering on a motorcycle and cornering on a bicycle are two different
things. Throttle plays an important role in corning on a motorcycle,
something you don't have on a bicycles. As far as picking lines, it's about
the same.

At the lousy levels of racing in which I participate, I think that a
decade of riding motorcycles has given me a lot more confidence in
corners than some of my competitors. When the pack takes a tight corner
2 wide, I have no problem holding the inside line and cutting very tight
on the exit. This is a dreadful line from a cornering-speed point of
view, but the other riders are usually cautious enough that I don't lose
anything by this, because my cornering speed is probably a little closer
to the maximum possible on my line than theirs is on their line.

I think the single biggest advantage to be gained from vehicular
motorcycling to vehicular cycling is the situational awareness gained
from having spent time as a vulnerable but low-footprint form of
traffic. If you've spent much time as either a cyclist or a motorcyclist
around cars, you'll find yourself watching for the same dangerous
situations.

--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

In article ,
"Tom Nakashima" wrote:

wrote in message
...

Cornering isn't terribly important on bicycles, despite our
proud claims to the contrary. You don't hear much about
Lance Armstrong out-cornering the competition because
bicycling is mostly slow-motion drag-racing. We usually
pedal around at speeds so low that we wouldn't catch the eye
of a traffic cop running a speed trap in a school zone.
Carl Fogel

Cornering isn't terribly important on bicycles?
Have to disagree, and you may too if you've ever been in fast descents on a
bicycle, where picking your line is important. I'm not sure if you remember
the 1997 Tour de France when Richard Virenque was trying to put Jan Ullrich
at great risk in the corners on one of the mountain states. The roads were
wet and slick as Jan had pretty poor descending skills in the rain.
Virenque knew this and took advantage of his winter training in the French
alps. Ullrich nearly crashed and could have changed the outcome of the
finish of the Tour, but he played it safe and let Richard have his day.
Ulrich went on to win the Tour and the rest is history.

Pardon me as I use this same anecdote to derive the opposite
interpretation: Richard Virenque, a very good climber and superb
descender with 7 King of the Mountains jerseys, was able to use his
descending skills to steal a stage from Ullrich, who ultimately backed
off rather than risk a little more on the descent.

Ullrich, a notoriously poor descender, won that Tour de France, has
finished on the GC podium in every Tour he has contested except the last
one, has six TdF stage wins, won a Vuelta, an Olympic road race, and is
generally considered a much stronger rider than Virenque.

So in a circumstance where the prize to be won (a TdF stage) was much
more valuable to Virenque than to Ullrich (who had his eyes on the
yellow jersey, not a stuffed lion), and on a day of difficult
conditions, Virenque was able to use his better descent to put Ullrich
in difficulty. It's clear that on that particular day Ullrich's
descending cost him a prize, but it seems that is one of the few days in
which Ullrich's palmares suffered from his failings.

I ride both, motorcycles, and bicycles, and ride them fast in the corners if
I'm familiar with the road, or can visibly see the road ahead.
Cornering on a motorcycle and cornering on a bicycle are two different
things. Throttle plays an important role in corning on a motorcycle,
something you don't have on a bicycles. As far as picking lines, it's about
the same.

At the lousy levels of racing in which I participate, I think that a
decade of riding motorcycles has given me a lot more confidence in
corners than some of my competitors. When the pack takes a tight corner
2 wide, I have no problem holding the inside line and cutting very tight
on the exit. This is a dreadful line from a cornering-speed point of
view, but the other riders are usually cautious enough that I don't lose
anything by this, because my cornering speed is probably a little closer
to the maximum possible on my line than theirs is on their line.

I think the single biggest advantage to be gained from vehicular
motorcycling to vehicular cycling is the situational awareness gained
from having spent time as a vulnerable but low-footprint form of
traffic. If you've spent much time as either a cyclist or a motorcyclist
around cars, you'll find yourself watching for the same dangerous
situations.

--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

(dw) wrote:

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

Yes. And no.

If you are used to riding in traffic as a "vehicular cyclist", obeying
traffic laws etc., then you will have developed that part of the skill
set.

If you have developed awareness of what is going on all around you in
traffic without looking straight at it, then that skill crosses over
as well. Cyclists and motorcyclists face many of the same problems
with being seen by car drivers, and the coping strategies are
analogous.

Likewise an ability to instantly evaluate surface conditions and
traction available is an asset you can take with you to your
motorcycle.

However, the dynamics of a full-sized motorcycle are utterly different
than those of a bicycle. If you ride a motorcycle like you would a
bicycle, you will never approach the handling limits of the machine,
and you will put yourself at a disadvantage by not having that range
of maneuvering options available. A motorcycle can safely lean much
farther into a turn than a bicycle, but it requires some muscle at the
bars to make it do that. The braking power and weight distribution of
a motorbike allow you to brake well beyond what would pitch you over
the bars of a bicycle. The throttle just adds another degree of
freedom that you must coordinate with precision if you wish to ride
without mishap.

As a beginning motorcyclist, I made faulty assumptions about already
having learned everything I needed to know in order to go motorcycling
on the street. I crashed, a lot. Sometimes I got hurt. Everything
has healed except my knees, which are now crunchy and noisy and apt to
become sore if I ride my bicycle too vigorously. Now I wish I had
been more willing to accept the role of a rank beginner when I started
motorbiking.

I have been a regular motorcyclist for nine years now, but I have only
four years of accident-free riding behind me. You can learn your way
like I did, or you can seek instruction and use what may seem for a
while to be too much caution in your motorcycle riding.

Take a basic motorcycling course such as the MSF class before you go
out there. You will never regret having had _more_ instruction than
necessary, but you could easily regret not having taken enough
instruction.

Don't start, like I did, with a bike much more abruptly powerful than
your ability to control it. I chose such a bike (a Honda V65 Sabre)
because it fit my large body well, but I would have done better at
first to tolerate a more crowded fit on a gentler machine.

Have your motorcycle inspected and ridden by an experienced rider or a
motorbike mechanic, or you may be unaware of problems with your bike
due to simple unfamiliarity. My first bike's rear suspension was
dilapidated and barely budged when compressed, but I had no basis of
comparison by which to notice that. I believe that I was bucked off
my bike unnecessarily more than once because of it.

Again, I urge you to take an MSF rider course even before you decide
what sort of motorbike you want. A little experience could weigh
heavily in your decision.

Chalo Colina

(dw) wrote:

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

Yes. And no.

If you are used to riding in traffic as a "vehicular cyclist", obeying
traffic laws etc., then you will have developed that part of the skill
set.

If you have developed awareness of what is going on all around you in
traffic without looking straight at it, then that skill crosses over
as well. Cyclists and motorcyclists face many of the same problems
with being seen by car drivers, and the coping strategies are
analogous.

Likewise an ability to instantly evaluate surface conditions and
traction available is an asset you can take with you to your
motorcycle.

However, the dynamics of a full-sized motorcycle are utterly different
than those of a bicycle. If you ride a motorcycle like you would a
bicycle, you will never approach the handling limits of the machine,
and you will put yourself at a disadvantage by not having that range
of maneuvering options available. A motorcycle can safely lean much
farther into a turn than a bicycle, but it requires some muscle at the
bars to make it do that. The braking power and weight distribution of
a motorbike allow you to brake well beyond what would pitch you over
the bars of a bicycle. The throttle just adds another degree of
freedom that you must coordinate with precision if you wish to ride
without mishap.

As a beginning motorcyclist, I made faulty assumptions about already
having learned everything I needed to know in order to go motorcycling
on the street. I crashed, a lot. Sometimes I got hurt. Everything
has healed except my knees, which are now crunchy and noisy and apt to
become sore if I ride my bicycle too vigorously. Now I wish I had
been more willing to accept the role of a rank beginner when I started
motorbiking.

I have been a regular motorcyclist for nine years now, but I have only
four years of accident-free riding behind me. You can learn your way
like I did, or you can seek instruction and use what may seem for a
while to be too much caution in your motorcycle riding.

Take a basic motorcycling course such as the MSF class before you go
out there. You will never regret having had _more_ instruction than
necessary, but you could easily regret not having taken enough
instruction.

Don't start, like I did, with a bike much more abruptly powerful than
your ability to control it. I chose such a bike (a Honda V65 Sabre)
because it fit my large body well, but I would have done better at
first to tolerate a more crowded fit on a gentler machine.

Have your motorcycle inspected and ridden by an experienced rider or a
motorbike mechanic, or you may be unaware of problems with your bike
due to simple unfamiliarity. My first bike's rear suspension was
dilapidated and barely budged when compressed, but I had no basis of
comparison by which to notice that. I believe that I was bucked off
my bike unnecessarily more than once because of it.

Again, I urge you to take an MSF rider course even before you decide
what sort of motorbike you want. A little experience could weigh
heavily in your decision.

Chalo Colina

Do the 2-wheel skills go along when you use a metal motor?

I ride both, although over the past twenty years the motorcycling has gone
to near-zero (7500 miles on a 1985 VF500 Interceptor) while my cycling runs
about 6,000 miles/year.

I don't notice that much "skill transfer" between the two, to tell you the
truth, other than the motorcycle helping to provide a lot of awareness of
how much more stopping power you have on the front brake of a two-wheeled
machine.

From a safety standpoint, I find the two quite different. On a motorcycle,
*everything* is about visibility. Your eyes are the most important thing
you've got. Obviously they're essential on a bicycle as well, but I find
that it's my ears (hearing) that lets me know of danger coming up behind me,
while on a motorcycle, it's difficult to hear much of anything, what with
the noise of the engine, wind & the helmet's ability to muffle anything
else.

On the other hand, I think riding a motorcycle makes you a *far* safer
driver. On a motorcycle, you're constantly aware of what's going on to your
sides, and assume that nobody can see you. That mean you're always making
sure you have a way out; that you're never, ever in a position where there's
cars on both sides of you. I find myself driving a car the same way. Trust
no one. But that (making sure there's nobody on either side of you) doesn't
apply to riding a bicycle, because cars are most often passing you on the
left, and you're typically on the right-hand edge of the road with no
opportunities (hopefully!) for somebody to pull up on your right.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com