GPS Recommendations

Steve B. wrote:
"Jason Settles" wrote in message .
Does anyone use a GPS while cycling?

I'm looking for recommendations/suggestions for usage.
I would like something small that will upload/download to a computer.
Something that will also track altitude and/or grade changes will riding.

I have experience with a Garmin III Plus as well as considerable software
background so I am open to high tech suggestions.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.
*Jason. in Indy

I have used the original Garmin Vista, and did experience the auto-shut-off
issue related to loose Lithium batteries, but also had luck with a rubber
shim. The Lithiums do extend battery life, are expensive, but are almost a
required item as the Vista eats alkalines.

NiMH are cheaper than lithiums and work great. I have 2500 maH ones
that I am using now, but have been using 2100 maH NiMH batteries in my
Legend and Vista for the past 5 years and they work fine with
sufficient life.

The software does allow an up-load of a track to PC as well as download of a
map, but does not allow routes to be complied on a PC and downloaded, or
I've never been able to do it !

Geez, I guess all those routes I compiled for my tour down the west
coast and my tours in Italy, Switzerland, France, and Spain are all
figments of my imagination. Not! It is trivial in the Garmin software
to create routes and download to the unit.

though I think you can download routes from
Delorme products - never bothered though.

Only sort of; DeLorme takes its route and creates a series of waypoints
that get downloaded. OK, but not as useful as a route.

The built in tracklog is good for
about a 22 mile ride, or one way track, before it "wraps around" the log of
waypoints it writes.

I did 300 miles in France in May all in the Active Log of my Vista with
no wrap around. You need to work more with the unit and find out how
the setting affect things. Lower the sampling rater; a high sampling
rate is fine if you are flying an aircraft or driving at 80 MPH, but on
a bike it is useless.

You also want to set it to the finest resolution so it
will write a lot of waypoints on a track log,

Semantic correction; it writes track points, not waypoints. Waypoints
are a much different thing.

else it cuts corners on twisty
roads and the ride log reads short.

It will still do this even at the highest sampling rate.

Thus a regular $25 bike computer can be
more accurate,

No, if calibrated correctly the cyclocomputer will always be more
accurate. Accuracy of distance travelled is not the reason one rides
with a GPS. It is to help navigate and provide a track that can be
analyzed later.

especially in the woods, where any GPS may lose a signal.

Bottom line is it's an expensive gadget for everyday riding, but useful if
you are riding in an area where you might get lost, and/or are creating a
cue sheet.

Better ways to get a cue sheet.

Again, the main purposes to ride with a GPS are to navigate, to find
items, and to provide a track log for later analysis. We have, for
example, been caught in a sudden thunderstorm in Italy and queried the
GPS to locate a train station to make it back to the town in which we
were staying. We have used it to locate nearest hotel, nearest Mexican
food restaurant, the location of specific museums, rental car agencies,
etc. Those are the reasons I tour and ride with my Vista.

- rick

Rick, thanks for the info.

"Rick" wrote in message "Jason Settles"

I have used the original Garmin Vista, and did experience the
auto-shut-off
issue related to loose Lithium batteries, but also had luck with a rubber
shim. The Lithiums do extend battery life, are expensive, but are almost
a
required item as the Vista eats alkalines.

NiMH are cheaper than lithiums and work great. I have 2500 maH ones
that I am using now, but have been using 2100 maH NiMH batteries in my
Legend and Vista for the past 5 years and they work fine with
sufficient life.

I suspect I had not heard of NiMh in AA size 3 years ago, thus went to
Lithiums. I'll try the NiMh


The software does allow an up-load of a track to PC as well as download
of a
map, but does not allow routes to be complied on a PC and downloaded, or
I've never been able to do it !

Geez, I guess all those routes I compiled for my tour down the west
coast and my tours in Italy, Switzerland, France, and Spain are all
figments of my imagination. Not! It is trivial in the Garmin software
to create routes and download to the unit.

though I think you can download routes from
Delorme products - never bothered though.

Well, I did say that I had never been able to do it !, not that it wasn't
possible, but having not used the unit as much in the past 2 years ( I have
a 2610 in the car - which I love !), I'll delve back into it.


Only sort of; DeLorme takes its route and creates a series of waypoints
that get downloaded. OK, but not as useful as a route.

The built in tracklog is good for
about a 22 mile ride, or one way track, before it "wraps around" the log
of
waypoints it writes.

I did 300 miles in France in May all in the Active Log of my Vista with
no wrap around. You need to work more with the unit and find out how
the setting affect things. Lower the sampling rater; a high sampling
rate is fine if you are flying an aircraft or driving at 80 MPH, but on
a bike it is useless.

Semantic correction; it writes track points, not waypoints. Waypoints
are a much different thing.

Are you using the same unit ?. What I remember on my unit was the
limitation of something like 1000 trackpoints (which I should have called
something like internal waypoints, or some such to avoid confusion) - which
I seem to recall could be adjusted as to how far apart in distance, which
according to info I read ended up as something like 20 some odd miles at
highest resolution. Remember that I was creating cuesheets, not using to
navigate, thus I needed better resolution.

else it cuts corners on twisty
roads and the ride log reads short.

It will still do this even at the highest sampling rate.

True, but with less error


Thus a regular $25 bike computer can be
more accurate,

No, if calibrated correctly the cyclocomputer will always be more
accurate. Accuracy of distance travelled is not the reason one rides
with a GPS. It is to help navigate and provide a track that can be
analyzed later.

Do you mean Yes, the bike computer is more accurate ?. One issue with bike
computers though, is that from manufacturer to manufacturer, the measuring
differs, and even with correctly calibrated computers, the measurements
differ. This was the primary reason I got the Garmin, to help me get a
different measurement system as I create cue sheets for my area. At this
point I essentially average out what the GPS and the bike computer tell me.

Again, the main purposes to ride with a GPS are to navigate, to find
items, and to provide a track log for later analysis.

Which is what I missed my Garmin on a trip to Vermont 3 weeks ago when I
decided to detour without a map.

Thanks again

SB

Steve B. wrote:
Rick, thanks for the info.

"Rick" wrote in message "Jason Settles"

I have used the original Garmin Vista, and did experience the
auto-shut-off
issue related to loose Lithium batteries, but also had luck with a rubber
shim. The Lithiums do extend battery life, are expensive, but are almost
a
required item as the Vista eats alkalines.

NiMH are cheaper than lithiums and work great. I have 2500 maH ones
that I am using now, but have been using 2100 maH NiMH batteries in my
Legend and Vista for the past 5 years and they work fine with
sufficient life.

I suspect I had not heard of NiMh in AA size 3 years ago, thus went to
Lithiums. I'll try the NiMh


The software does allow an up-load of a track to PC as well as download
of a
map, but does not allow routes to be complied on a PC and downloaded, or
I've never been able to do it !

Geez, I guess all those routes I compiled for my tour down the west
coast and my tours in Italy, Switzerland, France, and Spain are all
figments of my imagination. Not! It is trivial in the Garmin software
to create routes and download to the unit.

though I think you can download routes from
Delorme products - never bothered though.

Well, I did say that I had never been able to do it !, not that it wasn't
possible, but having not used the unit as much in the past 2 years ( I have
a 2610 in the car - which I love !), I'll delve back into it.


Only sort of; DeLorme takes its route and creates a series of waypoints
that get downloaded. OK, but not as useful as a route.

The built in tracklog is good for
about a 22 mile ride, or one way track, before it "wraps around" the log
of
waypoints it writes.

I did 300 miles in France in May all in the Active Log of my Vista with
no wrap around. You need to work more with the unit and find out how
the setting affect things. Lower the sampling rater; a high sampling
rate is fine if you are flying an aircraft or driving at 80 MPH, but on
a bike it is useless.

Semantic correction; it writes track points, not waypoints. Waypoints
are a much different thing.

Are you using the same unit ?. What I remember on my unit was the
limitation of something like 1000 trackpoints (which I should have called
something like internal waypoints, or some such to avoid confusion) - which
I seem to recall could be adjusted as to how far apart in distance, which
according to info I read ended up as something like 20 some odd miles at
highest resolution. Remember that I was creating cuesheets, not using to
navigate, thus I needed better resolution.

Yes, I am using an eTrex Vista. You seem to confuse trackpoints and
waypoints. The Vista, and many of the Garmin units, can store up to
1000 waypoints, only. But a waypoint is a marker and is quite
different from a trackpoint. I have tracks with 6000+ trackpoints in
them.

else it cuts corners on twisty
roads and the ride log reads short.

It will still do this even at the highest sampling rate.

True, but with less error


Thus a regular $25 bike computer can be
more accurate,

No, if calibrated correctly the cyclocomputer will always be more
accurate. Accuracy of distance travelled is not the reason one rides
with a GPS. It is to help navigate and provide a track that can be
analyzed later.

Do you mean Yes, the bike computer is more accurate ?. One issue with bike
computers though, is that from manufacturer to manufacturer, the measuring
differs, and even with correctly calibrated computers, the measurements
differ. This was the primary reason I got the Garmin, to help me get a
different measurement system as I create cue sheets for my area. At this
point I essentially average out what the GPS and the bike computer tell me.

Yes, the cyclocomputer will be more accurate. The difference in
measurement systems is relatively inconsequential. The main difference
is whether they use cm or mm. Since my wheels are all over 200cm in
circumference, the maximum error is less than 0.25% (5mm on a 200cm
circumference wheel) if it uses cm for calibration rather than mm. A
difference of a 1/4 mile on a 100 mile ride does not matter.

Again, the main purposes to ride with a GPS are to navigate, to find
items, and to provide a track log for later analysis.

Which is what I missed my Garmin on a trip to Vermont 3 weeks ago when I
decided to detour without a map.

Use it more often, then you will become more accustomed to its uses,
capabilities, and limitations. And if you move to NiMH, the
rechargable aspect will help with the cost of running it.

BTW, here are some GPSVisualizer processed tracks from my recent trip
(all tracks recorded on an eTrex Vista):

http://www.cycle-tours.com/images/fr..._2005_tour.jpg
http://www.cycle-tours.com/images/fr...map_May_24.jpg
http://www.cycle-tours.com/images/fr...map_May_25.jpg
http://www.cycle-tours.com/images/fr...map_May_26.jpg
http://www.cycle-tours.com/images/fr...map_May_27.jpg
http://www.cycle-tours.com/images/fr...map_May_28.jpg
http://www.cycle-tours.com/images/fr...map_May_29.jpg
http://www.cycle-tours.com/images/fr...map_May_30.jpg
http://www.cycle-tours.com/images/fr...map_May_31.jpg
http://www.cycle-tours.com/images/fr.../map_Jun_1.jpg
http://www.cycle-tours.com/images/fr.../map_Jun_2.jpg


- rick

Jason Settles wrote:
Does anyone use a GPS while cycling?

I'm looking for recommendations/suggestions for usage.
I would like something small that will upload/download to a computer.
Something that will also track altitude and/or grade changes will riding.

I have experience with a Garmin III Plus as well as considerable software
background so I am open to high tech suggestions.

I use one all the time. Both road biike and off-road.
There are lots of factors depending on what you would hope to actually
do, but ultimately the GPS unit you choose may be less significant than
software that you use in conjunction with it.

Check out Topofusion.com for truly excellent mapping/training log
software. (Written by bikers, well written at that) It's got about
every nifty feature that a biker might want. (tracks, profiles, 3D
mapping, Training log, virtual racing with scaled time tracks, route
planning, average speed, climbing ....)

Take a look at the Garmin ForeTREX. It's hard to beat for
basic usefulness (essentially the same as a Geko 201) and compactness
(very small) unless you decide you need a "mapping" unit. (and even the
fortrex will let you display a track that you have created while
showing where you are) My biggest complaint ( a minor one at that) is
that the batteries are not removable which means that once they're
dead, the unit has to be recharged unless you rig up some sort of
external power pack (which I have done).

I've used a Garmin Legend extensively too. It's excellent and I suspect
the newr color version is even better. I have never seen any real need
for a unit with a barometric altimeter built in, since the GPS
altimeter is quite accurate any time you are getting a decent satellite
fix. A unit with a Barometeric altimer will also go through batteries a
bit quicker.

DR

Ted wrote:
[re Etrex]
...The problem with the unit is that if you leave it on while you
ride it will turn its self off. I think the problem has to do with the
batteries losing contact when you hit bumps. I asked Garmin about this
problem and they said it was designed for alkaline batteries and that
rechargeable batteries weren't the same physical dimensions. I tried
the alkalines but they had the same problem.

Other have described similar solutions but here's mine:
http://www.members.aol.com/dirtroadi.../etrexshim.jpg
The two tiny strips (1cm) are thin closed cell weatherstripping which
fills just enough space to keep the batteries from being able to move
but compresses without creating any stress on the case cover.

Battery size can definitely be an issue but I have not had any recent
problems with rechargeables. In fact my only experience with loose
batteries was with some old 1300 mAH AA's. I'll bet almost all
batteries made today are much "snugger" since they have to pack the
"juice" in somehow.

DR

"Jason Settles" wrote in message
. ..
Does anyone use a GPS while cycling?

I'm looking for recommendations/suggestions for usage.
I would like something small that will upload/download to a computer.
Something that will also track altitude and/or grade changes will riding.

I have experience with a Garmin III Plus as well as considerable software
background so I am open to high tech suggestions.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.
*Jason. in Indy


I have been using a Garmin Forerunner 201.
http://www.garmin.com/products/forerunner201/
It is inexpensive (~ $150) and seems very accurate. It records distances to
within a fraction of a percent of what my cycle computer records (Ciclosport
436M). It will display current speed, elevation, distance, time, etc. The
201 downloads to computer and the software will export a data file (*.xml)
of Lat/Long & Elev that can be loaded into Excel, etc.

you can also overlay data on maps:
http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/map?form=forerunner

My main gripe with the 201 was the data capacity which was something like 8
hours even though the rechargeable battery runs for about 15 hours. New
software updates may have fixed this but I haven't been on any 15 hour rides
to check. I did a 10 hour ride this year and it worked fine.

Dan

I got a Garmin 60CS in June and I'm very happy with it. Although slightly
larger thant the Vista or Legend it has a larger color screen that is easy
to read and has more memory so it can hold more map data. I use it with the
handlebar mount which works great and it is easy to read while biking during
the daytime. I use Alkaline AA batteries which seem to last quite awhile
and haven't had any problem with it at all. I find the odometer very
accurate and I also use it in my car when I'm not biking. It also includes
a compass and altimeter. I highly recommend it.

Chuck

"Jason Settles" wrote in message
. ..
Does anyone use a GPS while cycling?

I'm looking for recommendations/suggestions for usage.
I would like something small that will upload/download to a computer.
Something that will also track altitude and/or grade changes will riding.

I have experience with a Garmin III Plus as well as considerable software
background so I am open to high tech suggestions.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.
*Jason. in Indy

Ted wrote:
I can recommend against one model, the Garmin etrek Vista. It has 24
meg of memory and and upload maps of sections of the USA which is all
very nice. You can download track logs of your routes which is also
nice. The problem with the unit is that if you leave it on while you
ride it will turn its self off. I think the problem has to do with the
batteries losing contact when you hit bumps. I asked Garmin about this
problem and they said it was designed for alkaline batteries and that
rechargeable batteries weren't the same physical dimensions. I tried
the alkalines but they had the same problem. I haven't found any
solution.

Ted

==============================================

I had the same problem with my Garmin eMap. Solved it by mounting it on
foam rubber. I glued some Velcro to the foam rubber, and put Velcro on
the back of the GPS.

A safety strap loops over my odometer/computer thingy, which saved this
GPS one time from flying away when I hit a big bump.

Dirtroadie makes a lot of sense. I've used several GPS receivers since
1998. Over the last 16 months my favorite is a Garmin Foretrex for
biking, hiking, even driving. IMO any paper map is almost always
better than an electronic map on a small screen.

That said, if you really want a mapping GPSR, look closely at the
Legend C / Vista C. The 60C is also good, but designed to be held more
vertical. Garmin's website has a good viewer app for their software.
Anyone considering a mapping GPSR should spend a lot of time reviewing
the *content* of the maps.

See http://www.gpsinformation.org and sci.geo.satellite-nav

Bob Wheeler wrote:

I have a GPSmap 60CS.

Would the new Garmin Quest be too big and cumbersome
for biking and outdoor use?

John