New RIm wheel rebuild

On 3/24/2021 7:18 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 3:15:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/24/2021 4:45 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 2:20:53 PM UTC-7, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/24/2021 7:46 AM, Mark cleary wrote:
Ok a number of months ago had a Kinlin xc-279 rim that would not true for roundness. I had built the rim about 5 years ago. Well I finally manage to get another new KInlin 28 hole rim. So now going to rebuild the rear wheel. What is my best option to make it the smoothest?

I hope the ERD is the same as I am going to use the same spokes, hub and nipples. Should I tape the rims together and do the spoke transfer in pairs or one at a time. I heard that is the best way. If someone could walk me through the steps I would be so glad
Deacon mark

You've pretty much summed it up already. The only thing I'd add is to
loosen all the spokes 2-4 turns before starting the transfer just to
make your life easier.

And what Andy said about measuring the ERD is a really good idea. At
least lay the new rim alongside the old and make sure the rim "height"
is about the same. Otherwise you won't know for certain if the spokes
are the proper length until ~80% of the way into the build - after all
the spokes are in and mostly tensioned. It's a real bummer to realize
*then* that you can't reuse the existing spokes (BTDT).

Definitely faster doing it this way rather than unlacing old then lacing
new, though as Andy says, hub polishing is harder that way.

I don't know about it being faster, but if Mark is not comfortable building from scratch, its the way to go -- and I would tape the rims together to ensure proper orientation and for convenience.

If Mark is comfortable building from scratch (which I guess he is, since he disassembled the old wheel), it is pretty fast doing the power drill disassembly and then relacing, although I never timed the two methods.

When I transfer spokes, it feels so slow. With the full disassembly, though, you do end up with the porcupine in your lap and spokes falling onto the floor. It's more of a mess when you stand up to get a beer. I bet there is a YouTube video with a race between transferring and relacing. There is a YouTube video of everything.

-- Jay Beattie.



As with everything else, people see the problem differently
and behave accordingly.

In the rare case of reusing spokes I clean and wipe them,
descum the threads with a stainless brush and solvent wash.
That, along with a hub polish, takes little time and gives a
faster and better looking rebuild.

#1 wheelbuilder here always sits to build wheels. I always
stand. We each think the other is wrong.

I think (this may be personal lore) that you have to be very carefully returning the spokes to their prior orientation -- innees going in and outees going out, and it does psychic if not physical injury to the J-bends if you mix up the orientation. Changing lacing patterns can also gouge new ruts in the hub flange and weaken the flange.

-- Jay Beattie.
.


Yes that's right.

As often as not, the original builder had some cockamamie
orientation, leaving the rebuilder a Hobson's choice among
proper spoke pattern, making new grooves in half the hub,
valve in the wrong place and so on.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 16:44:46 -0700 (PDT), Mark cleary
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 5:52:12 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 07:46:32 -0700 (PDT), Mark cleary
wrote:

Ok a number of months ago had a Kinlin xc-279 rim that would not true for roundness. I had built the rim about 5 years ago. Well I finally manage to get another new KInlin 28 hole rim. So now going to rebuild the rear wheel. What is my best option to make it the smoothest?

I hope the ERD is the same as I am going to use the same spokes, hub and nipples. Should I tape the rims together and do the spoke transfer in pairs or one at a time. I heard that is the best way. If someone could walk me through the steps I would be so glad
Deacon mark
Try https://sheldonbrown.com/ for the answers to just about any
bicycleing question you need to ask. As in
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
--
Cheers,

John B.
Oh I can build wheels my first one was maybe 10 years ago with some help for Andrew's Shop for the parts. Since then I build them as needed but really it is much cheaper to buy built and then do the final checks yourself.
Deacon Mark

I used to build wheels and then one of my home built wheels popped a
spoke and wanting to ride rather then fix I went down to my local bike
shop and bought the cheapest set of Shimano wheels that they had
available.... Just to tide me over until I can build a proper wheel
you know.

Today, some 4 or 5 years later I'm still running the cheap Shimano
wheels and they are still perfectly true :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 05:52:02 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Try https://sheldonbrown.com/ for the answers to just about any
bicycleing question you need to ask. As in
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Also see:
The Bicycle Wheel 3rd edition by Jobst Brandt
https://www.google.com/search?q=the+bicycle+wheel+jobst+brandt+3rd+editio n
The parts I liked were the calculations, equations, testing, theory,
etc. The 3rd edition was published in 1993, which suggests that it
doesn't include anything on disk wheels, carbon fiber, or modeling.

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 7:04:35 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 05:52:02 +0700, John B.
wrote:
Try https://sheldonbrown.com/ for the answers to just about any
bicycleing question you need to ask. As in
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
Also see:
The Bicycle Wheel 3rd edition by Jobst Brandt
https://www.google.com/search?q=the+bicycle+wheel+jobst+brandt+3rd+editio n
The parts I liked were the calculations, equations, testing, theory,
etc. The 3rd edition was published in 1993, which suggests that it
doesn't include anything on disk wheels, carbon fiber, or modeling.

I bought the first edition. The wheels had wooden spokes, and there was a section on elm versus ash felloes.
https://previews.123rf.com/images/oh...den-wheels.jpg There is a great chapter on gluing and screwing spokes.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 19:22:30 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 7:04:35 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 05:52:02 +0700, John B.
wrote:
Try https://sheldonbrown.com/ for the answers to just about any
bicycleing question you need to ask. As in
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
Also see:
The Bicycle Wheel 3rd edition by Jobst Brandt
https://www.google.com/search?q=the+bicycle+wheel+jobst+brandt+3rd+editio n
The parts I liked were the calculations, equations, testing, theory,
etc. The 3rd edition was published in 1993, which suggests that it
doesn't include anything on disk wheels, carbon fiber, or modeling.

I bought the first edition. The wheels had wooden spokes, and there was a section on elm versus ash felloes.
https://previews.123rf.com/images/oh...den-wheels.jpg There is a great chapter on gluing and screwing spokes.

-- Jay Beattie.

Sounds useful. You can buy wooden bicycle rims. For example:
https://www.cerchioghisallo.shop
https://roadbikeaction.com/rolling-on-wheels-of-wood/
and other wooden bicycle parts:
https://www.google.com/search?q=wooden+bicycle+parts&tbm=isch

Wooden spokes seem to be a problem:

"ALL WOOD BIKE - Will It Survive?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yJdz-kjfLk

"How to make a wooden bike - for the first time in india"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oes8G6SSbcs (10:29)
Wood disk wheels and wood chain included. Notice that the video has
34.5 million views, which suggests that there might be some interest.
Soon, everyone will be riding wooden bicycles.


--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 3/24/2021 8:35 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/24/2021 7:18 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 3:15:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/24/2021 4:45 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 2:20:53 PM UTC-7, Mark J. wrote:
On 3/24/2021 7:46 AM, Mark cleary wrote:
Ok a number of months ago had a Kinlin xc-279 rim that would not
true for roundness. I had built the rim about 5 years ago. Well I
finally manage to get another new KInlin 28 hole rim. So now going
to rebuild the rear wheel. What is my best option to make it the
smoothest?

I hope the ERD is the same as I am going to use the same spokes,
hub and nipples. Should I tape the rims together and do the spoke
transfer in pairs or one at a time. I heard that is the best way.
If someone could walk me through the steps I would be so glad
Deacon mark

You've pretty much summed it up already. The only thing I'd add is to
loosen all the spokes 2-4 turns before starting the transfer just to
make your life easier.

And what Andy said about measuring the ERD is a really good idea. At
least lay the new rim alongside the old and make sure the rim "height"
is about the same. Otherwise you won't know for certain if the spokes
are the proper length until ~80% of the way into the build - after all
the spokes are in and mostly tensioned. It's a real bummer to realize
*then* that you can't reuse the existing spokes (BTDT).

Definitely faster doing it this way rather than unlacing old then
lacing
new, though as Andy says, hub polishing is harder that way.

I don't know about it being faster, but if Mark is not comfortable
building from scratch, its the way to go -- and I would tape the
rims together to ensure proper orientation and for convenience.

If Mark is comfortable building from scratch (which I guess he is,
since he disassembled the old wheel), it is pretty fast doing the
power drill disassembly and then relacing, although I never timed
the two methods.

When I transfer spokes, it feels so slow. With the full disassembly,
though, you do end up with the porcupine in your lap and spokes
falling onto the floor. It's more of a mess when you stand up to get
a beer. I bet there is a YouTube video with a race between
transferring and relacing. There is a YouTube video of everything.

-- Jay Beattie.



As with everything else, people see the problem differently
and behave accordingly.

In the rare case of reusing spokes I clean and wipe them,
descum the threads with a stainless brush and solvent wash.
That, along with a hub polish, takes little time and gives a
faster and better looking rebuild.

#1 wheelbuilder here always sits to build wheels. I always
stand. We each think the other is wrong.

I think (this may be personal lore) that you have to be very carefully
returning the spokes to their prior orientation -- innees going in and
outees going out, and it does psychic if not physical injury to the
J-bends if you mix up the orientation.Â* Changing lacing patterns can
also gouge new ruts in the hub flange and weaken the flange.

-- Jay Beattie.
.


Yes that's right.

As often as not, the original builder had some cockamamie orientation,
leaving the rebuilder a Hobson's choice among proper spoke pattern,
making new grooves in half the hub, valve in the wrong place and so on.

The valve thing would bother me. But are new grooves in a hub really
detrimental, other than cosmetic?


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/25/2021 10:32 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/24/2021 8:35 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/24/2021 7:18 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 3:15:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi
wrote:
On 3/24/2021 4:45 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 2:20:53 PM UTC-7, Mark
J. wrote:
On 3/24/2021 7:46 AM, Mark cleary wrote:
Ok a number of months ago had a Kinlin xc-279 rim
that would not true for roundness. I had built the
rim about 5 years ago. Well I finally manage to get
another new KInlin 28 hole rim. So now going to
rebuild the rear wheel. What is my best option to
make it the smoothest?

I hope the ERD is the same as I am going to use the
same spokes, hub and nipples. Should I tape the rims
together and do the spoke transfer in pairs or one at
a time. I heard that is the best way. If someone
could walk me through the steps I would be so glad
Deacon mark

You've pretty much summed it up already. The only
thing I'd add is to
loosen all the spokes 2-4 turns before starting the
transfer just to
make your life easier.

And what Andy said about measuring the ERD is a really
good idea. At
least lay the new rim alongside the old and make sure
the rim "height"
is about the same. Otherwise you won't know for
certain if the spokes
are the proper length until ~80% of the way into the
build - after all
the spokes are in and mostly tensioned. It's a real
bummer to realize
*then* that you can't reuse the existing spokes (BTDT).

Definitely faster doing it this way rather than
unlacing old then lacing
new, though as Andy says, hub polishing is harder that
way.

I don't know about it being faster, but if Mark is not
comfortable building from scratch, its the way to go --
and I would tape the rims together to ensure proper
orientation and for convenience.

If Mark is comfortable building from scratch (which I
guess he is, since he disassembled the old wheel), it
is pretty fast doing the power drill disassembly and
then relacing, although I never timed the two methods.

When I transfer spokes, it feels so slow. With the full
disassembly, though, you do end up with the porcupine
in your lap and spokes falling onto the floor. It's
more of a mess when you stand up to get a beer. I bet
there is a YouTube video with a race between
transferring and relacing. There is a YouTube video of
everything.

-- Jay Beattie.



As with everything else, people see the problem differently
and behave accordingly.

In the rare case of reusing spokes I clean and wipe them,
descum the threads with a stainless brush and solvent wash.
That, along with a hub polish, takes little time and
gives a
faster and better looking rebuild.

#1 wheelbuilder here always sits to build wheels. I always
stand. We each think the other is wrong.

I think (this may be personal lore) that you have to be
very carefully returning the spokes to their prior
orientation -- innees going in and outees going out, and
it does psychic if not physical injury to the J-bends if
you mix up the orientation. Changing lacing patterns
can also gouge new ruts in the hub flange and weaken the
flange.

-- Jay Beattie.
.


Yes that's right.

As often as not, the original builder had some cockamamie
orientation, leaving the rebuilder a Hobson's choice among
proper spoke pattern, making new grooves in half the hub,
valve in the wrong place and so on.

The valve thing would bother me. But are new grooves in a
hub really detrimental, other than cosmetic?



In theory yes. And /in extremis/ probably yes. Mostly no



--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, March 25, 2021 at 11:30:39 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/25/2021 10:32 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/24/2021 8:35 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/24/2021 7:18 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 3:15:22 PM UTC-7, AMuzi
wrote:
On 3/24/2021 4:45 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 2:20:53 PM UTC-7, Mark
J. wrote:
On 3/24/2021 7:46 AM, Mark cleary wrote:
Ok a number of months ago had a Kinlin xc-279 rim
that would not true for roundness. I had built the
rim about 5 years ago. Well I finally manage to get
another new KInlin 28 hole rim. So now going to
rebuild the rear wheel. What is my best option to
make it the smoothest?

I hope the ERD is the same as I am going to use the
same spokes, hub and nipples. Should I tape the rims
together and do the spoke transfer in pairs or one at
a time. I heard that is the best way. If someone
could walk me through the steps I would be so glad
Deacon mark

You've pretty much summed it up already. The only
thing I'd add is to
loosen all the spokes 2-4 turns before starting the
transfer just to
make your life easier.

And what Andy said about measuring the ERD is a really
good idea. At
least lay the new rim alongside the old and make sure
the rim "height"
is about the same. Otherwise you won't know for
certain if the spokes
are the proper length until ~80% of the way into the
build - after all
the spokes are in and mostly tensioned. It's a real
bummer to realize
*then* that you can't reuse the existing spokes (BTDT).

Definitely faster doing it this way rather than
unlacing old then lacing
new, though as Andy says, hub polishing is harder that
way.

I don't know about it being faster, but if Mark is not
comfortable building from scratch, its the way to go --
and I would tape the rims together to ensure proper
orientation and for convenience.

If Mark is comfortable building from scratch (which I
guess he is, since he disassembled the old wheel), it
is pretty fast doing the power drill disassembly and
then relacing, although I never timed the two methods.

When I transfer spokes, it feels so slow. With the full
disassembly, though, you do end up with the porcupine
in your lap and spokes falling onto the floor. It's
more of a mess when you stand up to get a beer. I bet
there is a YouTube video with a race between
transferring and relacing. There is a YouTube video of
everything.

-- Jay Beattie.



As with everything else, people see the problem differently
and behave accordingly.

In the rare case of reusing spokes I clean and wipe them,
descum the threads with a stainless brush and solvent wash.
That, along with a hub polish, takes little time and
gives a
faster and better looking rebuild.

#1 wheelbuilder here always sits to build wheels. I always
stand. We each think the other is wrong.

I think (this may be personal lore) that you have to be
very carefully returning the spokes to their prior
orientation -- innees going in and outees going out, and
it does psychic if not physical injury to the J-bends if
you mix up the orientation. Changing lacing patterns
can also gouge new ruts in the hub flange and weaken the
flange.

-- Jay Beattie.
.


Yes that's right.

As often as not, the original builder had some cockamamie
orientation, leaving the rebuilder a Hobson's choice among
proper spoke pattern, making new grooves in half the hub,
valve in the wrong place and so on.

The valve thing would bother me. But are new grooves in a
hub really detrimental, other than cosmetic?


In theory yes. And /in extremis/ probably yes. Mostly no
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Well I rebuild the wheel just some final touch up and tensioning. I broke all the rules. I pulled the DR spokes and then laced the NDS first then did the DS. I have no idea what order or if the spoke went back into the same flange hole it was in, or if it was head in or head out. The wheel actually trued up and dished faster than any wheel I have done maybe because it had already been built once and spokes bedded in so to spoke. I use a Park Tensionmeter and it reads about 19-20 on the DS need to get that to about 23. The radial true is good and that was the problem with the old rim. Seems radial truing has much more to do with rim itself being round than really making it radial true in the build.

Hopefully the the rebuild the wheel will be fine given how I did it. The spoke seemed all fine and nipples but trying the get the exact same spokes and grooves in the hub holes not happening.

Deacon Mark

On 25/03/2021 03:22, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 7:04:35 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 05:52:02 +0700, John B.
wrote:
Try https://sheldonbrown.com/ for the answers to just about any
bicycleing question you need to ask. As in
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
Also see: The Bicycle Wheel 3rd edition by Jobst Brandt
https://www.google.com/search?q=the+bicycle+wheel+jobst+brandt+3rd+editio n


The parts I liked were the calculations, equations, testing, theory,
etc. The 3rd edition was published in 1993, which suggests that it
doesn't include anything on disk wheels, carbon fiber, or
modeling.

I bought the first edition. The wheels had wooden spokes, and there
was a section on elm versus ash felloes.
https://previews.123rf.com/images/oh...den-wheels.jpg
There is a great chapter on gluing and screwing spokes.

Those spokes are all under compression and they were having the argument
as to whether the rim sat on the top spoke or not....

On Sunday, March 28, 2021 at 8:50:04 AM UTC-7, Tosspot wrote:
On 25/03/2021 03:22, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 7:04:35 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 05:52:02 +0700, John B.
wrote:
Try https://sheldonbrown.com/ for the answers to just about any
bicycleing question you need to ask. As in
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
Also see: The Bicycle Wheel 3rd edition by Jobst Brandt
https://www.google.com/search?q=the+bicycle+wheel+jobst+brandt+3rd+editio n


The parts I liked were the calculations, equations, testing, theory,
etc. The 3rd edition was published in 1993, which suggests that it
doesn't include anything on disk wheels, carbon fiber, or
modeling.

I bought the first edition. The wheels had wooden spokes, and there
was a section on elm versus ash felloes.
https://previews.123rf.com/images/oh...den-wheels.jpg
There is a great chapter on gluing and screwing spokes.
Those spokes are all under compression and they were having the argument
as to whether the rim sat on the top spoke or not....
I think you mean that spokes are always under tension of they are set up properly.