Is a custom frame for racing always an "upgrade"?

I'm a little unpopular with my industry friends today, as I opined to
a bike enthusiast that purchasing a locally made steel road racing
frame is no upgrade from his current Cannondale. My only concession
was that--of course there's a psychological edge to custom, and steel
does have the ductile advantage in case of a crash. But if you already
own an aluminum Cannondale that fits--it's silly to throw money at a
lateral move...

I don't currently work in the industry, but from the outside--it does
strike me as a religious order in many ways. For all the truth Muzi
encapsulates in the quip "it's for selling", when referring to
unnecessary "improvements" foisted upon us from year to year, I'll
take the unpopular stand that this is true for a lot of boutique and
craft items as well. Sometimes craft truly makes a difference--see
Paul hubs, and sometimes commodity manufacture can give a fabulously
cheap and functional product--see crabon racing frames on eBay for
that. I just am especially annoyed at the fundamentalist position I
see my friends take in support of expensive components--and the fibs
they tell--to sell things which offer no advantage to a consumer, but
offer paycheck to a buddy.

land "vertically compliant" otter

landotter wrote:
I'm a little unpopular with my industry friends today, as I opined to
a bike enthusiast that purchasing a locally made steel road racing
frame is no upgrade from his current Cannondale. My only concession
was that--of course there's a psychological edge to custom, and steel
does have the ductile advantage in case of a crash. But if you already
own an aluminum Cannondale that fits--it's silly to throw money at a
lateral move...

I don't currently work in the industry, but from the outside--it does
strike me as a religious order in many ways. For all the truth Muzi
encapsulates in the quip "it's for selling", when referring to
unnecessary "improvements" foisted upon us from year to year, I'll
take the unpopular stand that this is true for a lot of boutique and
craft items as well. Sometimes craft truly makes a difference--see
Paul hubs, and sometimes commodity manufacture can give a fabulously
cheap and functional product--see crabon racing frames on eBay for
that. I just am especially annoyed at the fundamentalist position I
see my friends take in support of expensive components--and the fibs
they tell--to sell things which offer no advantage to a consumer, but
offer paycheck to a buddy.

land "vertically compliant" otter

In my mind, custom frames were always for people who are hard to fit -
otherwise, the only other reason is to get something you can't get
(besides fit) from the wide selection of off-the-rack frames already out
there.

Disclaimer: I do ride custom frame, and for reasons of fit. I tried a
bunch of different frame sizes by buying used bikes, and experimented
with stem length, crank length, and all the other variables as well. It
took me a couple of years, but in the end, I knew what I wanted, and
since no one made it, I had it made for me. My custom frame has a 50.5
cm seat tube and a 57 cm top tube. I figured it all out by starting out
riding 50/51 sized frame, and kept trying bigger until I realized I
really liked riding a 56/57 cm frame, I just couldn't stand over it.

-S-

On Mar 4, 10:45*am, "Steve Freides" wrote:
landotter wrote:
I'm a little unpopular with my industry friends today, as I opined to
a bike enthusiast that purchasing a locally made steel road racing
frame is no upgrade from his current Cannondale. My only concession
was that--of course there's a psychological edge to custom, and steel
does have the ductile advantage in case of a crash. But if you already
own an aluminum Cannondale that fits--it's silly to throw money at a
lateral move...

I don't currently work in the industry, but from the outside--it does
strike me as a religious order in many ways. For all the truth Muzi
encapsulates in the quip "it's for selling", when referring to
unnecessary "improvements" foisted upon us from year to year, I'll
take the unpopular stand that this is true for a lot of boutique and
craft items as well. Sometimes craft truly makes a difference--see
Paul hubs, and sometimes commodity manufacture can give a fabulously
cheap and functional product--see crabon racing frames on eBay for
that. I just am especially annoyed at the fundamentalist position I
see my friends take in support of expensive components--and the fibs
they tell--to sell things which offer no advantage to a consumer, but
offer paycheck to a buddy.

land "vertically compliant" otter

In my mind, custom frames were always for people who are hard to fit -
otherwise, the only other reason is to get something you can't get
(besides fit) from the wide selection of off-the-rack frames already out
there.

Exactly my point. I used to be a bit wonky to fit. I'm slightly long
waisted. But with the advent of mildly sloping top tube frames--95% of
frames that claim to be 60cm, will fit me just fine. But I do like
longer chain stays and downtube shifter bosses, so if I had an extra
bit of cash to spend over, let's say a Gunnar Sport, I'd have my
friend A. weld me up something. But if I was racing crits on
Wednesday, that frame would come straight from China.


Disclaimer: I do ride custom frame, and for reasons of fit. *I tried a
bunch of different frame sizes by buying used bikes, and experimented
with stem length, crank length, and all the other variables as well. *It
took me a couple of years, but in the end, I knew what I wanted, and
since no one made it, I had it made for me. *My custom frame has a 50.5
cm seat tube and a 57 cm top tube. *I figured it all out by starting out
riding 50/51 sized frame, and kept trying bigger until I realized I
really liked riding a 56/57 cm frame, I just couldn't stand over it.

-S-

You've got the extreme version of my build. I'm happy with a ~60cm tt,
but with a 33" inseam that belongs more on a ~57cm frame. So between
two sizes, not three. Easily mitigated with off the shelf componentry.

But but custom frames for those that don't need them have more of a
selling cachet than a melange of mundane parts that would cost less
and offer a better fitting, comfort, and performance advantage.

On Mar 4, 11:15*am, landotter wrote:
I'm a little unpopular with my industry friends today, as I opined to
a bike enthusiast that purchasing a locally made steel road racing
frame is no upgrade from his current Cannondale. My only concession
was that--of course there's a psychological edge to custom, and steel
does have the ductile advantage in case of a crash. But if you already
own an aluminum Cannondale that fits--it's silly to throw money at a
lateral move...

I don't currently work in the industry, but from the outside--it does
strike me as a religious order in many ways. For all the truth Muzi
encapsulates in the quip "it's for selling", when referring to
unnecessary "improvements" foisted upon us from year to year, I'll
take the unpopular stand that this is true for a lot of boutique and
craft items as well. Sometimes craft truly makes a difference--see
Paul hubs, and sometimes commodity manufacture can give a fabulously
cheap and functional product--see crabon racing frames on eBay for
that. I just am especially annoyed at the fundamentalist position I
see my friends take in support of expensive components--and the fibs
they tell--to sell things which offer no advantage to a consumer, but
offer paycheck to a buddy.

land "vertically compliant" otter

Are you claiming any possible, theoretical, microscopic advantage
might not be absolutely critical??? Whoa!

That kind of thinking has gotten me into a lot of trouble with some
folks around here!

- Frank Krygowski

On 3/4/2011 11:15 AM, landotter wrote:
I'm a little unpopular with my industry friends today, as I opined to
a bike enthusiast that purchasing a locally made steel road racing
frame is no upgrade from his current Cannondale. My only concession
was that--of course there's a psychological edge to custom, and steel
does have the ductile advantage in case of a crash. But if you already
own an aluminum Cannondale that fits--it's silly to throw money at a
lateral move...

I don't currently work in the industry, but from the outside--it does
strike me as a religious order in many ways. For all the truth Muzi
encapsulates in the quip "it's for selling", when referring to
unnecessary "improvements" foisted upon us from year to year, I'll
take the unpopular stand that this is true for a lot of boutique and
craft items as well. Sometimes craft truly makes a difference--see
Paul hubs, and sometimes commodity manufacture can give a fabulously
cheap and functional product--see crabon racing frames on eBay for
that. I just am especially annoyed at the fundamentalist position I
see my friends take in support of expensive components--and the fibs
they tell--to sell things which offer no advantage to a consumer, but
offer paycheck to a buddy.

land "vertically compliant" otter

I'm with Chalo, to most US riders bikes are toys, and I'd add that
there's no right or wrong with toy logic. If someone wants a new toy and
isn't making his kids go shoeless, I don't see the harm.

As for function, I think we all know there's a rapidly diminishing rate
of return as prices go up. I'd rather have 7 more modest bikes for 7
discrete functions than one uber-bike, but that's just how I roll.
Inflating performance gains is unethical, but most of the bike shop
workers I've dealt with seem to believe the hype, so I write it off as
just ignorance rather than sleaze.

I'd agree that exchanging a well fitting Cannondale for a custom steel
frame would be a sideways move -- at best. But if daddy wants a new toy,
I wouldn't stand in his way.

landotter wrote:
I'm a little unpopular with my industry friends today, as I opined to
a bike enthusiast that purchasing a locally made steel road racing
frame is no upgrade from his current Cannondale. My only concession
was that--of course there's a psychological edge to custom, and steel
does have the ductile advantage in case of a crash. But if you already
own an aluminum Cannondale that fits--it's silly to throw money at a
lateral move...

I don't currently work in the industry, but from the outside--it does
strike me as a religious order in many ways. For all the truth Muzi
encapsulates in the quip "it's for selling", when referring to
unnecessary "improvements" foisted upon us from year to year, I'll
take the unpopular stand that this is true for a lot of boutique and
craft items as well. Sometimes craft truly makes a difference--see
Paul hubs, and sometimes commodity manufacture can give a fabulously
cheap and functional product--see crabon racing frames on eBay for
that. I just am especially annoyed at the fundamentalist position I
see my friends take in support of expensive components--and the fibs
they tell--to sell things which offer no advantage to a consumer, but
offer paycheck to a buddy.

land "vertically compliant" otter

While there is some truth in all that, and we do wax cynical
here from time to time, at essence each rider has his/her
own criteria.

If a guy rides more and enjoys that elusive 'pride of
ownership' with some glitz like a sterling silver dope leaf
inset in his handcut lugs, who are we to kibitz? Find your
dream; even if it's weird, it's yours!

Recent example:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/colrcrim.jpg



--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/4/2011 1:59 PM, AMuzi wrote:
landotter wrote:
I'm a little unpopular with my industry friends today, as I opined to
a bike enthusiast that purchasing a locally made steel road racing
frame is no upgrade from his current Cannondale. My only concession
was that--of course there's a psychological edge to custom, and steel
does have the ductile advantage in case of a crash. But if you already
own an aluminum Cannondale that fits--it's silly to throw money at a
lateral move...

I don't currently work in the industry, but from the outside--it does
strike me as a religious order in many ways. For all the truth Muzi
encapsulates in the quip "it's for selling", when referring to
unnecessary "improvements" foisted upon us from year to year, I'll
take the unpopular stand that this is true for a lot of boutique and
craft items as well. Sometimes craft truly makes a difference--see
Paul hubs, and sometimes commodity manufacture can give a fabulously
cheap and functional product--see crabon racing frames on eBay for
that. I just am especially annoyed at the fundamentalist position I
see my friends take in support of expensive components--and the fibs
they tell--to sell things which offer no advantage to a consumer, but
offer paycheck to a buddy.

land "vertically compliant" otter

While there is some truth in all that, and we do wax cynical here from
time to time, at essence each rider has his/her own criteria.

If a guy rides more and enjoys that elusive 'pride of ownership' with
some glitz like a sterling silver dope leaf inset in his handcut lugs,
who are we to kibitz? Find your dream; even if it's weird, it's yours!

Recent example:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/colrcrim.jpg

Yeah that "gang-green" color is horrible!

On Mar 5, 4:14*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Mar 4, 11:15*am, landotter wrote:



I'm a little unpopular with my industry friends today, as I opined to
a bike enthusiast that purchasing a locally made steel road racing
frame is no upgrade from his current Cannondale. My only concession
was that--of course there's a psychological edge to custom, and steel
does have the ductile advantage in case of a crash. But if you already
own an aluminum Cannondale that fits--it's silly to throw money at a
lateral move...

I don't currently work in the industry, but from the outside--it does
strike me as a religious order in many ways. For all the truth Muzi
encapsulates in the quip "it's for selling", when referring to
unnecessary "improvements" foisted upon us from year to year, I'll
take the unpopular stand that this is true for a lot of boutique and
craft items as well. Sometimes craft truly makes a difference--see
Paul hubs, and sometimes commodity manufacture can give a fabulously
cheap and functional product--see crabon racing frames on eBay for
that. I just am especially annoyed at the fundamentalist position I
see my friends take in support of expensive components--and the fibs
they tell--to sell things which offer no advantage to a consumer, but
offer paycheck to a buddy.

land "vertically compliant" otter

Are you claiming any possible, theoretical, microscopic advantage
might not be absolutely critical??? *Whoa!

That kind of thinking has gotten me into a lot of trouble with some
folks around here!

Microscopic advantage?

Absolutely critical?

Why not one small advantage makes immeasurable difference?

Wouldn't a dozen small advantages add to a measurable advantage then?

JS.

On Mar 4, 11:56*am, Peter Cole wrote:
On 3/4/2011 11:15 AM, landotter wrote:









I'm a little unpopular with my industry friends today, as I opined to
a bike enthusiast that purchasing a locally made steel road racing
frame is no upgrade from his current Cannondale. My only concession
was that--of course there's a psychological edge to custom, and steel
does have the ductile advantage in case of a crash. But if you already
own an aluminum Cannondale that fits--it's silly to throw money at a
lateral move...

I don't currently work in the industry, but from the outside--it does
strike me as a religious order in many ways. For all the truth Muzi
encapsulates in the quip "it's for selling", when referring to
unnecessary "improvements" foisted upon us from year to year, I'll
take the unpopular stand that this is true for a lot of boutique and
craft items as well. Sometimes craft truly makes a difference--see
Paul hubs, and sometimes commodity manufacture can give a fabulously
cheap and functional product--see crabon racing frames on eBay for
that. I just am especially annoyed at the fundamentalist position I
see my friends take in support of expensive components--and the fibs
they tell--to sell things which offer no advantage to a consumer, but
offer paycheck to a buddy.

land "vertically compliant" otter

I'm with Chalo, to most US riders bikes are toys, and I'd add that
there's no right or wrong with toy logic. If someone wants a new toy and
isn't making his kids go shoeless, I don't see the harm.

I totally agree. I *like* pretty things. And in this case it's a very
well made steel frame for $1600, which isn't outrageous, but quite a
bit more than, let's say, a Gunnar, for no major differences. The
purchaser is a married college student, so it's not just about buying
local art that happens to be rideable--that would be fine and good.
It's just in no way a performance upgrade.



As for function, I think we all know there's a rapidly diminishing rate
of return as prices go up. I'd rather have 7 more modest bikes for 7
discrete functions than one uber-bike, but that's just how I roll.

I'd agree. Though I'd happily spend $1200 to have a friend of mine who
builds make me a touring/city frameset at some point--but I'd be the
one putting in the equity when it comes to the actual build. It'd be
nice to have a daily steed that has a personal connection, stylish to
boot. But for racing? Hell no. That's when you want something that's
either paid for by your sponsor, or a commodity that you can thrash.

Inflating performance gains is unethical, but most of the bike shop
workers I've dealt with seem to believe the hype, so I write it off as
just ignorance rather than sleaze.

It's willful ignorance. The monkey suit shops upsell the boutique
wheels that are a **** to service, and the hipper little shops push
hybrid commuters onto steel, when frame material is not even
interesting when you're commuting...unless you've been told that it
is...


I'd agree that exchanging a well fitting Cannondale for a custom steel
frame would be a sideways move -- at best. But if daddy wants a new toy,
I wouldn't stand in his way.

It's fantastic when "daddy" with bux wants a new toy and can find it
via the artisans that make beautiful frames--it's cheaper and
healthier than a HD motorbike fetish, and it pays the bills for some
cool dudes. But it's kind of a wash if you're looking for
"performance". They sell that stuff on the internet, now!

On Mar 4, 12:59*pm, AMuzi wrote:

If a guy rides more and enjoys that elusive 'pride of
ownership' with some glitz like a sterling silver dope leaf
inset in his handcut lugs, who are we to kibitz? Find your
dream; even if it's weird, it's yours!

Recent example:http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/colrcrim.jpg


I'm very socially liberal, but I'd picket that.