Is a custom frame for racing always an "upgrade"?

On Mar 5, 3:15*am, landotter wrote:
I'm a little unpopular with my industry friends today, as I opined to
a bike enthusiast that purchasing a locally made steel road racing
frame is no upgrade from his current Cannondale. My only concession
was that--of course there's a psychological edge to custom, and steel
does have the ductile advantage in case of a crash. But if you already
own an aluminum Cannondale that fits--it's silly to throw money at a
lateral move...

I don't currently work in the industry, but from the outside--it does
strike me as a religious order in many ways. For all the truth Muzi
encapsulates in the quip "it's for selling", when referring to
unnecessary "improvements" foisted upon us from year to year, I'll
take the unpopular stand that this is true for a lot of boutique and
craft items as well. Sometimes craft truly makes a difference--see
Paul hubs, and sometimes commodity manufacture can give a fabulously
cheap and functional product--see crabon racing frames on eBay for
that. I just am especially annoyed at the fundamentalist position I
see my friends take in support of expensive components--and the fibs
they tell--to sell things which offer no advantage to a consumer, but
offer paycheck to a buddy.

land "vertically compliant" otter

I agree, if the Cannondale fits and he's comfortable with the ride, a
sideways step seems pointless.

I do like steel though, after seeing many carbon and aluminium frames
crack after a year or two of service.

I also like the fact that when with the frame builder we came up with
the design, I was able to make fine adjustments to details like head
tube height and tyre clearance. I should be able to run 28c tyres on
my racing bike, and not brush my toe on the front tyre at a track
stand, and I don't need a bunch of spacers between the headset and the
head stem.

JS.

On Mar 4, 9:11*am, landotter wrote:
On Mar 4, 10:45*am, "Steve Freides" wrote:





landotter wrote:
I'm a little unpopular with my industry friends today, as I opined to
a bike enthusiast that purchasing a locally made steel road racing
frame is no upgrade from his current Cannondale. My only concession
was that--of course there's a psychological edge to custom, and steel
does have the ductile advantage in case of a crash. But if you already
own an aluminum Cannondale that fits--it's silly to throw money at a
lateral move...

I don't currently work in the industry, but from the outside--it does
strike me as a religious order in many ways. For all the truth Muzi
encapsulates in the quip "it's for selling", when referring to
unnecessary "improvements" foisted upon us from year to year, I'll
take the unpopular stand that this is true for a lot of boutique and
craft items as well. Sometimes craft truly makes a difference--see
Paul hubs, and sometimes commodity manufacture can give a fabulously
cheap and functional product--see crabon racing frames on eBay for
that. I just am especially annoyed at the fundamentalist position I
see my friends take in support of expensive components--and the fibs
they tell--to sell things which offer no advantage to a consumer, but
offer paycheck to a buddy.

land "vertically compliant" otter

In my mind, custom frames were always for people who are hard to fit -
otherwise, the only other reason is to get something you can't get
(besides fit) from the wide selection of off-the-rack frames already out
there.

Exactly my point. I used to be a bit wonky to fit. I'm slightly long
waisted. But with the advent of mildly sloping top tube frames--95% of
frames that claim to be *60cm, will fit me just fine. But I do like
longer chain stays and downtube shifter bosses, so if I had an extra
bit of cash to spend over, let's say a Gunnar Sport, I'd have my
friend A. weld me up something. But if I was racing crits on
Wednesday, that frame would come straight from China.



Disclaimer: I do ride custom frame, and for reasons of fit. *I tried a
bunch of different frame sizes by buying used bikes, and experimented
with stem length, crank length, and all the other variables as well. *It
took me a couple of years, but in the end, I knew what I wanted, and
since no one made it, I had it made for me. *My custom frame has a 50..5
cm seat tube and a 57 cm top tube. *I figured it all out by starting out
riding 50/51 sized frame, and kept trying bigger until I realized I
really liked riding a 56/57 cm frame, I just couldn't stand over it.

-S-

You've got the extreme version of my build. I'm happy with a ~60cm tt,
but with a 33" inseam that belongs more on a ~57cm frame. So between
two sizes, not three. Easily mitigated with off the shelf componentry.

But but custom frames for those that don't need them have more of a
selling cachet than a melange of mundane parts that would cost less
and offer a better fitting, comfort, and performance advantage.- Hide quoted

I agree basically, but there are some parameters that don't have a
huge effect on fit, like trail and chain-stay length, wheelbase,
fender clearance, toe clearance, etc. Material also makes a
difference (steel, Al, CF). I wouldn't put Chalo on CF anything.

There are reaonably good reasons for going custom that are not just
fit related -- not to mention the bling-bling appeal of steel art.
I'm past buying custom steel frames because I have grown cheap in my
old age, but there are some frames that I look at and go "mmmmm ....
must have frame." Because we have a custom builder under every rock
here in PDX (often sharing under-rock space with lawyers and baristas
and microbrewers), I frequently see pretty frames that I would like to
own but would have no place to store and no reason to ride -- since I
already have too many bikes.

BTW, I bought my first (of many) custom steel frames because it was
hard getting tall(er) frames (64-65cm) with reasonably long TTs back
in the 70s. That is not much of an issue now with changes in TT
philosphy and longer seatposts and stems available. Another reason I
bought custom was that I loved Masi frames and could have one copied
in my size with better brazing and better paint for 75% of the price
by a local builder who was also a friend. It was actually cheaper
buying a custom USian frame than a big-name Italiano frame. -- Jay
Beattie.

On Mar 4, 2:00*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Mar 4, 9:11*am, landotter wrote:









On Mar 4, 10:45*am, "Steve Freides" wrote:

landotter wrote:
I'm a little unpopular with my industry friends today, as I opined to
a bike enthusiast that purchasing a locally made steel road racing
frame is no upgrade from his current Cannondale. My only concession
was that--of course there's a psychological edge to custom, and steel
does have the ductile advantage in case of a crash. But if you already
own an aluminum Cannondale that fits--it's silly to throw money at a
lateral move...

I don't currently work in the industry, but from the outside--it does
strike me as a religious order in many ways. For all the truth Muzi
encapsulates in the quip "it's for selling", when referring to
unnecessary "improvements" foisted upon us from year to year, I'll
take the unpopular stand that this is true for a lot of boutique and
craft items as well. Sometimes craft truly makes a difference--see
Paul hubs, and sometimes commodity manufacture can give a fabulously
cheap and functional product--see crabon racing frames on eBay for
that. I just am especially annoyed at the fundamentalist position I
see my friends take in support of expensive components--and the fibs
they tell--to sell things which offer no advantage to a consumer, but
offer paycheck to a buddy.

land "vertically compliant" otter

In my mind, custom frames were always for people who are hard to fit -
otherwise, the only other reason is to get something you can't get
(besides fit) from the wide selection of off-the-rack frames already out
there.

Exactly my point. I used to be a bit wonky to fit. I'm slightly long
waisted. But with the advent of mildly sloping top tube frames--95% of
frames that claim to be *60cm, will fit me just fine. But I do like
longer chain stays and downtube shifter bosses, so if I had an extra
bit of cash to spend over, let's say a Gunnar Sport, I'd have my
friend A. weld me up something. But if I was racing crits on
Wednesday, that frame would come straight from China.

Disclaimer: I do ride custom frame, and for reasons of fit. *I tried a
bunch of different frame sizes by buying used bikes, and experimented
with stem length, crank length, and all the other variables as well. *It
took me a couple of years, but in the end, I knew what I wanted, and
since no one made it, I had it made for me. *My custom frame has a 50.5
cm seat tube and a 57 cm top tube. *I figured it all out by starting out
riding 50/51 sized frame, and kept trying bigger until I realized I
really liked riding a 56/57 cm frame, I just couldn't stand over it.

-S-

You've got the extreme version of my build. I'm happy with a ~60cm tt,
but with a 33" inseam that belongs more on a ~57cm frame. So between
two sizes, not three. Easily mitigated with off the shelf componentry.

But but custom frames for those that don't need them have more of a
selling cachet than a melange of mundane parts that would cost less
and offer a better fitting, comfort, and performance advantage.- Hide quoted

I agree basically, but there are some parameters that don't have a
huge effect on fit, like trail and chain-stay length, wheelbase,
fender clearance, toe clearance, etc. *Material also makes a
difference (steel, Al, CF). *I wouldn't put Chalo on CF anything.

Certainly--that's why I'd look for custom one of these days--I'd love
a short trail front loader with small front wheel and long stays. But
for minor tweaks--like cable routing for a particular gearhub, for
example, it seems more logical and quicker to just have those tacked
onto an off-the-shelf frame, and get the mess powder coated.



There are reaonably good reasons for going custom that are not just
fit related -- not to mention the bling-bling appeal of steel art.
I'm past buying custom steel frames because I have grown cheap in my
old age, but there are some frames that I look at and go "mmmmm ....
must have frame." *Because we have a custom builder under every rock
here in PDX (often sharing under-rock space with lawyers and baristas
and microbrewers), I frequently see pretty frames that I would like to
own but would have no place to store and no reason to ride -- since I
already have too many bikes.

Again, as I said before--I got no bones with pretty things. But
sometimes if things are too pretty, they don't get used as they should
be.


BTW, I bought my first (of many) custom steel frames because it was
hard getting tall(er) frames (64-65cm) with reasonably long TTs back
in the 70s. That is not much of an issue now with changes in TT
philosphy and longer seatposts and stems available. *Another reason I
bought custom was that I loved Masi frames and could have one copied
in my size with better brazing and better paint for 75% of the price
by a local builder who was also a friend. *It was actually cheaper
buying a custom USian frame than a big-name Italiano frame. -- Jay
Beattie.

That's a great story. It's unfortunate that now one can get a Masi
decaled Chinese made bike that's got some retro-nifty choices* and for
a fair price, you're still limited to a 60cm TT.

http://www.masibikes.com/steel/speciale-strada/

On Mar 4, 12:30*pm, landotter wrote:
On Mar 4, 2:00*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Mar 4, 9:11*am, landotter wrote:

On Mar 4, 10:45*am, "Steve Freides" wrote:

landotter wrote:
I'm a little unpopular with my industry friends today, as I opined to
a bike enthusiast that purchasing a locally made steel road racing
frame is no upgrade from his current Cannondale. My only concession
was that--of course there's a psychological edge to custom, and steel
does have the ductile advantage in case of a crash. But if you already
own an aluminum Cannondale that fits--it's silly to throw money at a
lateral move...

I don't currently work in the industry, but from the outside--it does
strike me as a religious order in many ways. For all the truth Muzi
encapsulates in the quip "it's for selling", when referring to
unnecessary "improvements" foisted upon us from year to year, I'll
take the unpopular stand that this is true for a lot of boutique and
craft items as well. Sometimes craft truly makes a difference--see
Paul hubs, and sometimes commodity manufacture can give a fabulously
cheap and functional product--see crabon racing frames on eBay for
that. I just am especially annoyed at the fundamentalist position I
see my friends take in support of expensive components--and the fibs
they tell--to sell things which offer no advantage to a consumer, but
offer paycheck to a buddy.

land "vertically compliant" otter

In my mind, custom frames were always for people who are hard to fit -
otherwise, the only other reason is to get something you can't get
(besides fit) from the wide selection of off-the-rack frames already out
there.

Exactly my point. I used to be a bit wonky to fit. I'm slightly long
waisted. But with the advent of mildly sloping top tube frames--95% of
frames that claim to be *60cm, will fit me just fine. But I do like
longer chain stays and downtube shifter bosses, so if I had an extra
bit of cash to spend over, let's say a Gunnar Sport, I'd have my
friend A. weld me up something. But if I was racing crits on
Wednesday, that frame would come straight from China.

Disclaimer: I do ride custom frame, and for reasons of fit. *I tried a
bunch of different frame sizes by buying used bikes, and experimented
with stem length, crank length, and all the other variables as well.. *It
took me a couple of years, but in the end, I knew what I wanted, and
since no one made it, I had it made for me. *My custom frame has a 50.5
cm seat tube and a 57 cm top tube. *I figured it all out by starting out
riding 50/51 sized frame, and kept trying bigger until I realized I
really liked riding a 56/57 cm frame, I just couldn't stand over it..

-S-

You've got the extreme version of my build. I'm happy with a ~60cm tt,
but with a 33" inseam that belongs more on a ~57cm frame. So between
two sizes, not three. Easily mitigated with off the shelf componentry..

But but custom frames for those that don't need them have more of a
selling cachet than a melange of mundane parts that would cost less
and offer a better fitting, comfort, and performance advantage.- Hide quoted

I agree basically, but there are some parameters that don't have a
huge effect on fit, like trail and chain-stay length, wheelbase,
fender clearance, toe clearance, etc. *Material also makes a
difference (steel, Al, CF). *I wouldn't put Chalo on CF anything.

Certainly--that's why I'd look for custom one of these days--I'd love
a short trail front loader with small front wheel and long stays. But
for minor tweaks--like cable routing for a particular gearhub, for
example, it seems more logical and quicker to just have those tacked
onto an off-the-shelf frame, and get the mess powder coated.



There are reaonably good reasons for going custom that are not just
fit related -- not to mention the bling-bling appeal of steel art.
I'm past buying custom steel frames because I have grown cheap in my
old age, but there are some frames that I look at and go "mmmmm ....
must have frame." *Because we have a custom builder under every rock
here in PDX (often sharing under-rock space with lawyers and baristas
and microbrewers), I frequently see pretty frames that I would like to
own but would have no place to store and no reason to ride -- since I
already have too many bikes.

Again, as I said before--I got no bones with pretty things. But
sometimes if things are too pretty, they don't get used as they should
be.



BTW, I bought my first (of many) custom steel frames because it was
hard getting tall(er) frames (64-65cm) with reasonably long TTs back
in the 70s. That is not much of an issue now with changes in TT
philosphy and longer seatposts and stems available. *Another reason I
bought custom was that I loved Masi frames and could have one copied
in my size with better brazing and better paint for 75% of the price
by a local builder who was also a friend. *It was actually cheaper
buying a custom USian frame than a big-name Italiano frame. -- Jay
Beattie.

That's a great story. It's unfortunate that now one can get a Masi
decaled Chinese made bike that's got some retro-nifty choices* and for
a fair price, you're still limited to a 60cm TT.

http://www.masibikes.com/steel/speciale-strada/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

TIG? Sacrilege! http://www.nonlintec.com/masigc/ Look at this
restoration project -- with the beaten down Phil hubs. The rear hub
is first production with the plated hub shell. I would have used
those, and the Phil BB, too. The finished product was basically the
bike I would have owned -- but with the Phil parts, a Turbo or
Unicanitor rather than a San Marco and a SR headset because they were
special and easy to beat up with a wrench. I would have used Fiamme
Red Labels because, well, that is what I used at my weight and income
bracket. Same old slippery-when-wet Benotto tape -- and in my size, an
SP frame. A true boat anchor by today's standards. -- Jay Beattie.

On Mar 4, 4:25*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Mar 4, 12:30*pm, landotter wrote:

[snip] *Another reason I
bought custom was that I loved Masi frames and could have one copied
in my size with better brazing and better paint for 75% of the price
by a local builder who was also a friend. *It was actually cheaper
buying a custom USian frame than a big-name Italiano frame. -- Jay
Beattie.

That's a great story. It's unfortunate that now one can get a Masi
decaled Chinese made bike that's got some retro-nifty choices* and for
a fair price, you're still limited to a 60cm TT.

http://www.masibikes.com/steel/speciale-strada/-Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

TIG? *Sacrilege!http://www.nonlintec.com/masigc/*Look at this
restoration project -- with the beaten down Phil hubs. *The rear hub
is first production with the plated hub shell. I would have used
those, and the Phil BB, too. The finished product was basically the
bike I would have owned -- but with the Phil parts, a Turbo or
Unicanitor rather than a San Marco and a SR headset because they were
special and easy to beat up with a wrench. I would have used Fiamme
Red Labels because, well, that is what I used at my weight and income
bracket. Same old slippery-when-wet Benotto tape -- and in my size, an
SP frame. *A true boat anchor by today's standards. -- Jay Beattie.

Those Phil parts are pretty neat. Nice job on the replating of the hub
shell. Repro Turbo for me as well, or a Unicanitor with buffalo cover.
Like the yellow housing, but Bennotto tape is just nasty stuff, fit
for a display bike only. ;-)

On Mar 4, 2:52*pm, James wrote:
On Mar 5, 4:14*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Are you claiming any possible, theoretical, microscopic advantage
might not be absolutely critical??? *Whoa!

That kind of thinking has gotten me into a lot of trouble with some
folks around here!

Microscopic advantage?

Absolutely critical?

Why not one small advantage makes immeasurable difference?

Wouldn't a dozen small advantages add to a measurable advantage then?

Oh hey, there's one of them now! ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

On 3/4/2011 10:15 AM, landotter wrote:
I'm a little unpopular with my industry friends today, as I opined to
a bike enthusiast that purchasing a locally made steel road racing
frame is no upgrade from his current Cannondale. My only concession
was that--of course there's a psychological edge to custom, and steel
does have the ductile advantage in case of a crash. But if you already
own an aluminum Cannondale that fits--it's silly to throw money at a
lateral move...

I don't currently work in the industry, but from the outside--it does
strike me as a religious order in many ways. For all the truth Muzi
encapsulates in the quip "it's for selling", when referring to
unnecessary "improvements" foisted upon us from year to year, I'll
take the unpopular stand that this is true for a lot of boutique and
craft items as well. Sometimes craft truly makes a difference--see
Paul hubs, and sometimes commodity manufacture can give a fabulously
cheap and functional product--see crabon racing frames on eBay for
that. I just am especially annoyed at the fundamentalist position I
see my friends take in support of expensive components--and the fibs
they tell--to sell things which offer no advantage to a consumer, but
offer paycheck to a buddy.

land "vertically compliant" otter

Sometimes a hand-made bike really will offer a significant speed
advantage for racing, e.g. http://www.velokraft.com/nocom.html.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On Mar 4, 2:53*pm, landotter wrote:

It's fantastic when "daddy" with bux wants a new toy and can find it
via the artisans that make beautiful frames--it's cheaper and
healthier than a HD motorbike fetish, and it pays the bills for some
cool dudes. But it's kind of a wash if you're looking for
"performance".

There's a parallel in the world of musical instruments. A Martin
D-100 Deluxe won't necessarily sound or play all _that_ much better
than a standard D-28. But some guys just love the look and the pride
of ownership, and are willing to give Martin $100,000 for a box on
which to bang out their three chords, off-tempo.

At this point in time, if I were to get a custom frame, it would be
not for any speed advantage, but to get perfectly fitting racks,
lights, fenders, room for wide tires, exactly the right brake details,
etc. My project today is fitting new fenders onto our old tandem, and
I'm cussing the builder for putting the seatstay bridge too close to
the rear axle.

BTW, this tandem was a custom, built many years ago. But when I went
to pick it up, there were about a dozen things that were different
from what I specified. The builder said "Look, I'm heading for
Europe. Do you want it or not?" I grumbled and took it. Two years
ago, the super-thin-gage fork blades broke off at the crown. Watch
who you buy custom from, and make sure his name isn't Jim Bradford.

- Frank Krygowski

On 3/4/2011 1:53 PM, landotter wrote:
[...]
It's willful ignorance. The monkey suit shops upsell the boutique
wheels that are a **** to service, and the hipper little shops push
hybrid commuters onto steel, when frame material is not even
interesting when you're commuting...unless you've been told that it
is...

Steven M. Scharf, phone call on Line 1.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On Mar 5, 1:26*am, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 3/4/2011 10:15 AM, landotter wrote:



I'm a little unpopular with my industry friends today, as I opined to
a bike enthusiast that purchasing a locally made steel road racing
frame is no upgrade from his current Cannondale. My only concession
was that--of course there's a psychological edge to custom, and steel
does have the ductile advantage in case of a crash. But if you already
own an aluminum Cannondale that fits--it's silly to throw money at a
lateral move...

I don't currently work in the industry, but from the outside--it does
strike me as a religious order in many ways. For all the truth Muzi
encapsulates in the quip "it's for selling", when referring to
unnecessary "improvements" foisted upon us from year to year, I'll
take the unpopular stand that this is true for a lot of boutique and
craft items as well. Sometimes craft truly makes a difference--see
Paul hubs, and sometimes commodity manufacture can give a fabulously
cheap and functional product--see crabon racing frames on eBay for
that. I just am especially annoyed at the fundamentalist position I
see my friends take in support of expensive components--and the fibs
they tell--to sell things which offer no advantage to a consumer, but
offer paycheck to a buddy.

land "vertically compliant" otter

Sometimes a hand-made bike really will offer a significant speed
advantage for racing, e.g. http://www.velokraft.com/nocom.html.

--
T m Sherm n - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Racing require accelleration out of corners, sometimes tight corners
at that. I doubt that would work as a criterium bike, I doubt it
could be ridden over a cyclocross course, never mind raced. It would
make an unecessary hindrance and danger for other riders, no wonder
they are not accepted under regular racing rules.