Is a custom frame for racing always an "upgrade"?

On 3/4/2011 12:59 PM, A. Muzi wrote:
[...]
If a guy rides more and enjoys that elusive 'pride of ownership' with
some glitz like a sterling silver dope leaf inset in his handcut lugs,
who are we to kibitz? Find your dream; even if it's weird, it's yours!

Recent example:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/colrcrim.jpg

That combination is as ugly as the old Indiana license plates that said
"Wander": https://myweb.in.gov/BMV/mybmvportal/Portals/0/1984-86.jpg.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On Mar 4, 1:52*pm, James wrote:
On Mar 5, 4:14*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:





On Mar 4, 11:15*am, landotter wrote:

I'm a little unpopular with my industry friends today, as I opined to
a bike enthusiast that purchasing a locally made steel road racing
frame is no upgrade from his current Cannondale. My only concession
was that--of course there's a psychological edge to custom, and steel
does have the ductile advantage in case of a crash. But if you already
own an aluminum Cannondale that fits--it's silly to throw money at a
lateral move...

I don't currently work in the industry, but from the outside--it does
strike me as a religious order in many ways. For all the truth Muzi
encapsulates in the quip "it's for selling", when referring to
unnecessary "improvements" foisted upon us from year to year, I'll
take the unpopular stand that this is true for a lot of boutique and
craft items as well. Sometimes craft truly makes a difference--see
Paul hubs, and sometimes commodity manufacture can give a fabulously
cheap and functional product--see crabon racing frames on eBay for
that. I just am especially annoyed at the fundamentalist position I
see my friends take in support of expensive components--and the fibs
they tell--to sell things which offer no advantage to a consumer, but
offer paycheck to a buddy.

land "vertically compliant" otter

Are you claiming any possible, theoretical, microscopic advantage
might not be absolutely critical??? *Whoa!

That kind of thinking has gotten me into a lot of trouble with some
folks around here!

Microscopic advantage?

Absolutely critical?

Why not one small advantage makes immeasurable difference?

Wouldn't a dozen small advantages add to a measurable advantage then?

JS.

Whoa, buddy, that's the kind of talk that has had a whole lot of
people around here get in big trouble with Frank Krygowski!
--D-y

On 3/4/2011 8:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Mar 4, 2:53 pm, wrote:

It's fantastic when "daddy" with bux wants a new toy and can find it
via the artisans that make beautiful frames--it's cheaper and
healthier than a HD motorbike fetish, and it pays the bills for some
cool dudes. But it's kind of a wash if you're looking for
"performance".

There's a parallel in the world of musical instruments. A Martin
D-100 Deluxe won't necessarily sound or play all _that_ much better
than a standard D-28. But some guys just love the look and the pride
of ownership, and are willing to give Martin $100,000 for a box on
which to bang out their three chords, off-tempo.

At this point in time, if I were to get a custom frame, it would be
not for any speed advantage, but to get perfectly fitting racks,
lights, fenders, room for wide tires, exactly the right brake details,
etc. My project today is fitting new fenders onto our old tandem, and
I'm cussing the builder for putting the seatstay bridge too close to
the rear axle.

BTW, this tandem was a custom, built many years ago. But when I went
to pick it up, there were about a dozen things that were different
from what I specified. The builder said "Look, I'm heading for
Europe. Do you want it or not?" I grumbled and took it. Two years
ago, the super-thin-gage fork blades broke off at the crown. Watch
who you buy custom from, and make sure his name isn't Jim Bradford.

Which raises the question of whether, overall, a custom bike is
necessarily even as good as an off the shelf bike. At 6'10" and 240 lb,
I've had several conversations with both frame makers and owners of
large bikes and came to the conclusion that I'd likely be less happy
with a custom than I would be with a tweaked standard bike.

On the tandem front, I decided it was just hopeless to fit a
conventional tandem, custom or otherwise, given my absolute size and our
team weight, and our relative height difference. I built a 3 wheel
articulated tandem for about $100 added cost to the donor bikes. In many
ways, it is a superior solution to a conventional tandem. I got the
inspiration from years of technical off-road cycling with my daughter on
a trailer bike. The result: standard wheels and drivetrain, 3 braking, 2
driving wheels, standard suspension fork (if desired), independent
cranks/cadence, long stable wheelbase that articulates in tight corners
or bumps, spacious stoker cockpit, easy storage and transport, even the
ability to quickly revert back to 1 or 2 separate bikes.

On Mar 4, 7:32*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

There's a parallel in the world of musical instruments. *A Martin
D-100 Deluxe won't necessarily sound or play all _that_ much better
than a standard D-28. *But some guys just love the look and the pride
of ownership, and are willing to give Martin $100,000 for a box on
which to bang out their three chords, off-tempo.

But chances are the prewar (WWII) Martin will sound every bit of all
that much better than a current- or recent-production item. Agreed,
from limited experience and hearsay that the upscale old instruments
didn't necessarily carry advanced sonic qualities, and in fact one
example might look very nice but not sound good at all. Good
instruments (speaking of sound) are where you find them...

And please, just one post without negative rhetoric-- "three chords,
off-tempo"? If you think it's basically stupid to spend "$100,000" on
a guitar, just say so directly instead of casting aspersions on people
you don't know from Adam in the first place.
Or is this going to be another one of those Tales of Krygowski: "I
knew this guy..."?

At this point in time, if I were to get a custom frame, it would be
not for any speed advantage, but to get perfectly fitting racks,
lights, fenders, room for wide tires, exactly the right brake details,
etc. *My project today is fitting new fenders onto our old tandem, and
I'm cussing the builder for putting the seatstay bridge too close to
the rear axle.

BTW, this tandem was a custom, built many years ago. *But when I went
to pick it up, there were about a dozen things that were different
from what I specified. *The builder said "Look, I'm heading for
Europe. *Do you want it or not?" *I grumbled and took it. *Two years
ago, the super-thin-gage fork blades broke off at the crown. *Watch
who you buy custom from, and make sure his name isn't Jim Bradford.

Ah, the bitterness of regret...

BTW, I have a custom frame (TI-- why doesn't anyone think of custom
Ti? Passé material?) that is a lot faster than my non-custom frames.
No bull****. The long top tube lets me get flat and down, and yes, I
have long stems on the non-custom bikes, too. This ride is different.

Several people in my cohort have road bikes with CF frames made by
Nick Crumpton (he of the Bicycling magazine "Editors' Favorite", as a
non-advertising, one-man operation). Nick has been building frames for
a long time, in steel previously, and, similar to your well-placed
personal preferences in particulars IRT materials and "bits", Nick has
a touch-- make that a method, no claims of black magic there-- for
making the frame fit "first", without resorting to setback seatposts,
long stems, whatever/so forth. He doesn't build "super light"; to the
contrary, he builds "stout" and stouter yet. Yes, there is pride of
ownership, but these expensive frames are happily raced and ridden by
their owners. Basic comment is "best bike yet", from very experienced
owner/operators. No "wow, this thing is so fast I almost fell off!!!"
comments from this crowd. What you'd expect from smart people who are
successful in life and can well afford this very functional
indulgence. By the way, the "bits" are well attended to, from what I
hear, including (at least) one S&S coupling setup, which device
requires, as I understand, some care in areas other than just the
couplers in order for full functionality.
So, what's "best riding bike I've had yet" worth? If you could afford
the price, what would you spend on the best-sounding guitar or fiddle
you ever had your hands on?
--D-y

On Mar 5, 8:47*am, Peter Cole wrote:
On 3/4/2011 8:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

BTW, this tandem was a custom, built many years ago. *But when I went
to pick it up, there were about a dozen things that were different
from what I specified. *The builder said "Look, I'm heading for
Europe. *Do you want it or not?" *I grumbled and took it. *Two years
ago, the super-thin-gage fork blades broke off at the crown. *Watch
who you buy custom from, and make sure his name isn't Jim Bradford.

Which raises the question of whether, overall, a custom bike is
necessarily even as good as an off the shelf bike.

I really, really thought about that a lot after the forks broke. Of
course, it was only then that I could measure the wall thickness of
the fork tubes. It was 1/3 that of the contemporary Reynolds tandem
fork blades. It was criminal.

At 6'10" and 240 lb,
I've had several conversations with both frame makers and owners of
large bikes and came to the conclusion that I'd likely be less happy
with a custom than I would be with a tweaked standard bike.

On the tandem front, I decided it was just hopeless to fit a
conventional tandem, custom or otherwise, given my absolute size and our
team weight, and our relative height difference.

Well, we had a couple in our bike club. He was about 6'8", she was
probably 5'4". Their tandem was a custom Santana, IIRC. The big
design decision was that she couldn't get her feet anywhere near the
ground. It didn't seem to bother them at all; they rode many tours
and long distances on that bike.

I built a 3 wheel
articulated tandem for about $100 added cost to the donor bikes. In many
ways, it is a superior solution to a conventional tandem. I got the
inspiration from years of technical off-road cycling with my daughter on
a trailer bike. The result: standard wheels and drivetrain, 3 braking, 2
driving wheels, standard suspension fork (if desired), independent
cranks/cadence, long stable wheelbase that articulates in tight corners
or bumps, spacious stoker cockpit, easy storage and transport, even the
ability to quickly revert back to 1 or 2 separate bikes.

That sounds pretty cool. I can see lots of advantages. I wonder why
it's not more popular. Did you find many disadvantage?

- Frank Krygowski

On 3/5/2011 12:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Mar 5, 8:47 am, Peter wrote:
On 3/4/2011 8:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

BTW, this tandem was a custom, built many years ago. But when I went
to pick it up, there were about a dozen things that were different
from what I specified. The builder said "Look, I'm heading for
Europe. Do you want it or not?" I grumbled and took it. Two years
ago, the super-thin-gage fork blades broke off at the crown. Watch
who you buy custom from, and make sure his name isn't Jim Bradford.

Which raises the question of whether, overall, a custom bike is
necessarily even as good as an off the shelf bike.

I really, really thought about that a lot after the forks broke. Of
course, it was only then that I could measure the wall thickness of
the fork tubes. It was 1/3 that of the contemporary Reynolds tandem
fork blades. It was criminal.

At 6'10" and 240 lb,
I've had several conversations with both frame makers and owners of
large bikes and came to the conclusion that I'd likely be less happy
with a custom than I would be with a tweaked standard bike.

On the tandem front, I decided it was just hopeless to fit a
conventional tandem, custom or otherwise, given my absolute size and our
team weight, and our relative height difference.

Well, we had a couple in our bike club. He was about 6'8", she was
probably 5'4". Their tandem was a custom Santana, IIRC. The big
design decision was that she couldn't get her feet anywhere near the
ground. It didn't seem to bother them at all; they rode many tours
and long distances on that bike.

I built a 3 wheel
articulated tandem for about $100 added cost to the donor bikes. In many
ways, it is a superior solution to a conventional tandem. I got the
inspiration from years of technical off-road cycling with my daughter on
a trailer bike. The result: standard wheels and drivetrain, 3 braking, 2
driving wheels, standard suspension fork (if desired), independent
cranks/cadence, long stable wheelbase that articulates in tight corners
or bumps, spacious stoker cockpit, easy storage and transport, even the
ability to quickly revert back to 1 or 2 separate bikes.

That sounds pretty cool. I can see lots of advantages. I wonder why
it's not more popular. Did you find many disadvantage?

This is one of the best tandem design I have seen:
http://www.m5-ligfietsen.nl/uploads/Itemizer/popups/1336.2.jpg.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

On Mar 5, 9:18*am, " wrote:
On Mar 4, 7:32*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

There's a parallel in the world of musical instruments. *A Martin
D-100 Deluxe won't necessarily sound or play all _that_ much better
than a standard D-28. *But some guys just love the look and the pride
of ownership, and are willing to give Martin $100,000 for a box on
which to bang out their three chords, off-tempo.

But chances are the prewar (WWII) Martin will sound every bit of all
that much better than a current- or recent-production item. Agreed,
from limited experience and hearsay that the upscale old instruments
didn't necessarily carry advanced sonic qualities, and in fact one
example might look very nice but not sound good at all. Good
instruments (speaking of sound) are where you find them...

And please, just one post without negative rhetoric-- "three chords,
off-tempo"? If you think it's basically stupid to spend "$100,000" on
a guitar, just say so directly instead of casting aspersions on people
you don't know from Adam in the first place.
Or is this going to be another one of those Tales of Krygowski: "I
knew this guy..."?

sigh Well, I don't know anyone who has spent $100,000 on a single
guitar. I did know a guy who spent at least half that much on
multiple collectible guitars. AFAIK, at the peak he had 56 of them,
many worth over $10,000, with about half stored in his basement, and
the other half stored at his company where he hid his exorbitant
purchases (not only guitars) from his then-wife. And yes, he was an
absolutely dismal guitarist.

BTW, I have a custom frame (TI-- why doesn't anyone think of custom
Ti? Passé material?) that is a lot faster than my non-custom frames.
No bull****. The long top tube lets me get flat and down, and yes, I
have long stems on the non-custom bikes, too. This ride is different.

As I understand it, Ti is a bit scarier, in that there's no practical
way to know if the welder has properly shielded the heat affected zone
during welding. That's inside the tube as well as outside. If it's
not properly shielded, it becomes dangerously weak and brittle. You'd
_really_ have to know your builder - better than I knew mine, for
sure. (And my guy did have a decent reputation. No matter what,
don't buy a bike someone has rushed to finish just before his
honeymoon.)

So, what's "best riding bike I've had yet" worth? If you could afford
the price, what would you spend on the best-sounding guitar or fiddle
you ever had your hands on?

Honestly, I've never been much of a connoisseur or trader, whether
we're talking musical instruments, bicycles, cars, motorcycles,
stereos... Usually, I'm slow and careful making a purchase, but then
I don't trade around hoping for something better. One guitar since
1984 or so, one decent fiddle since 1990 or so, one motorcycle since
1986, one little house since 1980, etc. (One wife, too!)

I can hear differences in sounds of guitars, but unlike some of my
friends, the differences don't seem to affect me much. My guitar
sounds good to me and its action is very nice. Any problems I have
are in my own fingers, not in the guitar. If I wanted it to sound a
whole lot better, I'd just practice a lot more.

Oh, BTW: I've played recorder and guitar for an annual madrigal
dinner for several years. Last year, an audience member came up to me
and said "I've always disliked the sound of a soprano recorder, but
yours has the most beautiful tone! It must be a really special
instrument!" Well, it's all plastic. I think I paid $8 for it.

- Frank Krygowski

Op 5-3-2011 19:52, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° schreef:


This is one of the best tandem design I have seen:
http://www.m5-ligfietsen.nl/uploads/Itemizer/popups/1336.2.jpg.


It is so good that our streets are crowded with them. Not...
Tom, get over it.

Lou

On 3/5/2011 1:01 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op 5-3-2011 19:52, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° schreef:


This is one of the best tandem design I have seen:
http://www.m5-ligfietsen.nl/uploads/Itemizer/popups/1336.2.jpg.


It is so good that our streets are crowded with them. Not...
Tom, get over it.

Hey, if you want something slower and less comfortable - well, about
everything else fits that criteria!

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

Op 5-3-2011 19:57, Frank Krygowski schreef:

Honestly, I've never been much of a connoisseur or trader, whether
we're talking musical instruments, bicycles, cars, motorcycles,
stereos... Usually, I'm slow and careful making a purchase, but then
I don't trade around hoping for something better. One guitar since
1984 or so, one decent fiddle since 1990 or so, one motorcycle since
1986, one little house since 1980, etc. (One wife, too!)

Frank what DO you do with all the money you don't spend? Charity?

Lou